Vigil

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty The eras that I was thinking of, and mentioned at the top were the Judas Contract era Deathstroke (circa 1983-84) and the more recent Kang Dynasty Cap. I think both show the characters at the top of their form. Deathstroke was easier to determine, Cap was tricky. I'm still not sure if the Kang dynasty was Cap's best showing but it was right up there.

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty Ah...but isn't Deathstroke equally adaptable and as tactically flexible as Cap? And wouldn't a lethal environment work at least as much in his favor as Cap's? Vigil

Hi All, Here's a classic match up. Deathstroke vs. Cap. Now, the problem becomes...which iteration of Deathstroke vs which iteration of Cap? So, how about two versions that I think hold up as "classic" examples of each: the Judas Contract Deathstroke vs. the Kang Dynasty Captain America. The setting...the X-Men's danger room...set to challenge Wolverine with all the safety interlocks shot...so it's at max. So, hostile environment to the max with two absolutely suprlative fighters...and only one can walk out! Who will it be? Cap or Deathstroke? Vigil

Re: Human Torch vs. Pyro, who wins? This one's easy. Human Troch, hands down.

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace? To illustrate your point, further, Tim...warren Ellis has sated that he, basically, despises superheroes...so what do they do...they get him to write all the superhero books they can throw at him with the bizarre idea that he'll have a fresh and invigorating take on superheroes...yeah, his take is that hates them! Is that good? Revolutionary? Refreshing or novel? not IMO. V

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace? I agree, Levi, but even a naive and grumpy old warhorse is a far more prefereable option than the mean spirited cynic that he seems to have become. To me, Cap always has to represent the ideals that most people pay lip service to but don't hold in any true esteem. He walks the talk in a way that no other hero, even Superman, does. In that way, he's more than just an idealist. hHe's the ideal, itself. Long live the one true, Captain America! V

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace? I think what's consistently obvious with BMB is that he doesn't like the Avengers, other than the idea of destroying or humiliating them. Moreover, he has absolutely no clue as to how to write them (which is why he loaded a team with charcters who have no business being Avengers) and seems to have no empathy for them or their history. Add that to the entire mercenary approach taken ion adding Spidey and Wolverine solely for sales kick and you have what I believe to be the worst chapter of Avenger's history and the absolute triumph of the mercenary over the creative. That's the real Avenger's Disassembled IMO. And IMO those are all signs of a lousy writer. V

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace? Especially Sentry. All I've seen the guy do is mope with the force of a million exploding suns...or whatever his dopey catch phrase is. The mini-series sucked, he's even worse in The Avengers and he's certainly the most inane and boring Superman clone of all time.

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace? I agree and much better than JMS's work on Supreme Power which has become a real cure for insomnia. 19 issues and the team hasn't even formed! That's gotta be a new all-time record for pointless wordiness. V

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace? Will the roster change include the writer...or is Busiek's return too much to hope for? V

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace? One year later. Time flies and so did my 30+ year subscription to and love of The Avengers. For me, The New Avengers have come to occupy that same sort of space as groups like The Authority and The Ultimates, namely, a cynical, self indulgent style of characterization and storytelling where, it seems, the writer is loathe to admit that he even reads comics, nonethelss likes them cause that wouldn't be cool. All of which is further complicated by the need for some mysterious and vague sort of "believability" and relevance...which to me is transposing the writer's neurosis onto the characters. For me, the final straw came early in the new series with Iron man and Cap making excuses for having a homicidal maniac (Wolverine) on the team cause he can do things they won't or can't do. So, being a party to homicide is okay if you don't kill anyone yourself. Nice. And morally convenient too. As convenient, in fact, as turning Captain America from a struggling and at time doubting idealist and patriot to a callous cynic. Makes for easier storytelling when there's no moral conflict and you don't have to worry about fiddly thing like established characterizations and continuity. I could go on and on but for me, in trying to capture something new and trendy they lost what was old and estimable, the classic Avengers. And they lost me, too. V

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord True, that's with the proviso that Spidey (as I wrote him) is concentrating exclusively on not being hit. I think that's a realistic scenario...that Spidey can avoid Firelord. The unrealistic scenario is assuming in any way shape or form that Spidey can defeat Firelord. Beyond writer's fiat (and it's the extreme of that) there's simply no way anyone with any knowledge of the genre would relaistically support the idea of Spidey beating Firelord. Avoiding him yes. Beating him, no way in hell. In the comsimc scheme of thing given who the two of them are, the aforementioned Aunt May is just as likely to deafet Firelord as Spidey is. For Spidey to do so means the writer is seriously lame and without credible ideas and the story should be relegated to the "imaginary story" file. That's all I'm saying. Vigil

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord You're right, I miscalculated. I was thinking of Mjolnir as Ranged Combat Levels as a way to express Thor being equally cpaable in both h to h and ranged combat. Now, given that if he's equally capable with both but won't be using both at once, I'm thinking this may look more proper: DEX 24 SPD 6 + 5 Levels with All Combat + 2 Overall Levels (he's been around a long time) I think that looks a little bit better. It still may make sense to include levels with Mjolnir seperately but the above seems pretty solid and balanced. Now let's postulate a bare bones Spidey (again, completely off the cuff) DEX 36 SPD 8 + 3 levels with h to h combat So, Thor maxes out 15 OCV without other bonuses for manuevers, etc while Spidey is capable of 15 DCV plus up to +5 DCV if his Spidey Sense kicks in and/or he Martial Dodges. So Thor up to 15 max, Spidey up to 20 DCV max without other bonuses. I think that makes sense. Thor (or anyone short of Quicksilver or a Herald of Galactus) won't hit Spidey too often when Spidey's focussing on not being hit.

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord As I said, I think the difference is that Firelord has raw DEX while Spidey (whose DEX is also very high) and Thor, Hercules, etc have levels to offset the difference. It doesn't have to be so simplistic as straight DEX = OCV/DCV. Thor was mentioned. I think THor is probably around SPD 6 DEX 24, so OCV/DCV 8. However, I'm also one of those people who happens to think that Thor is one of the most acomplished fighters in the MU (and yes, i think he could take Superman). So, in my charting of Thor (off the cuff from what I've seen) I'd give him something like 5 Levels with hand to hand combat, 5 Levels with Mjolnir, and 3 Levels with All Combat (the last one demonstrates his ability to harden his resolve against mentalists as well as his ability to push himself in other forms of combat). So, if Thor went all in he'd have an OCV 16 (plus other mods if applicable) vs Firelord's "static" OCV/DCV 14. I don't see that as unbalanced. It's always been my perception that th Heralds of Galactus are extraordinary even in comparison with other superheroes so, hence, I tend to think of them as having proportionately higher base stats. The other side of the coin is that few of the heralds seem to have devolped any sort of real combat ability beyond their overwhelming power. I'd give the Surfer and Morg and Terrax levels of some sort but Firelord, Nova and Air Walker never seem to have demonstrated much "skill" with combat beyond being powerhouses. So, yes, maybe the stats I ascribed (and those are hardly monloithic either since I've never written up any of the herlads) seem high but I think that within the continuum of the MU they do make sense. Yet another way to look at the Spidey/Firelord brawl is that, given what's been said about Firelord not wanting to devastate NY to tag Spidey, maybe Firelord was not only not using his full power...maybe he wasn't using his full DEX/OCV/DCV. That may be possible also. The parallels are characters like Cyclops and Wonder Man both of whom tended to restrain themselves regularly for one reason or another. Anyhoo, that's my thoughts. I may be "wrong" (if that's possible in something so subjective) or it may be that the Herlads of galactus should eb looked at in an entirely different way from virutally any other MU characters. I think the latter view preserves the heralds as absolutely singular and "cosmic" characters...just the way Galactus intended. Vigil

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord Wow! For a thread that was supposed to have been a quickie, one off question this thing has really gotten out of control...so I thought I'd add some more fuel to the Firelord. In building characters I have to agree with mitch. I look for the "averages", things that seem to be consistent in their appearances and build from there giving a little room for persoanal artistic interpretation (ie, if Spidey is DEX 36 then would Quicksilver be DEX 38 or DEX 30 with +8 Lightning Reflexes. Is he actually more agile than Spidey or does he just have enhanced reflexes). Those are the tricky call in characters. Beyond looking for averages, I go back to first appearances when possible to see what the author's original vision for the Character was since that tends to be a pretty good guide post on how to proceed. As to the debate (and why it is a debate I'm not realy sure) I think that absolutely the only thing that can explain Spidey winning is that the author needed him to. That's it. Even the least of Glactus's heralds (and the bottom end is filling up quickly) like Red Shift and the dopey guy from Stormbreaker have SPDs and DEXs that are cosmic in scope. Personally, I don't think it's stretch to start them at about SPD 8 DEX 40 and go from there. I'd probably put Firelord, who seems more nimble than your average herald (although nowhere near the Surfer's league) around SPD 9 DEX 43. That would give him a natural OCV/DCV of 14. Conversely, as opposed to some of the other hearlds, I don't think there's much eveidence to give him skill levels (maybe with flight) so his basic OCV/DCV would be all he had to work with. If Spidey's DEX 36 with 3 or 4 levels with h to h combat then he could, conceivably at least, keep Firelord busy for a while. Ultimately though, Spidey would tire, since heralds really don't and Firelord would tag him. From there it would quickly be game over. Vigil

Re: Entangle Abuse Thanks. Glad to help.

Re: Finding Invisible Woman Sure. Here's a suggestion. Give one of your villains a favorite of mine "Detect Invisible Objects" . It can be defined as any sort of sense you like but it's purpose is to do exactly what you've described and that's find invisble things that otherwise can't be found. Other options: Danger Sense bought as a sense (hyper intuition?) with the "local area" adder would do it. If an NPC with this kind of DI made their roll by half they'd be able to attack her at their full OCV value so maybe give the NPC a 20- base roll to make things interesting. Mind Scan works also since it's not targeting her byphysical PER it's targeting her by ECV and, inherently, you don't have to see one to find them via Mind Scan. Again given enough of a multiple you can use Mind Scan to attack the PCs. For an even nastier surprise have some NPC buy a powerful Mind Scan with some other punchy Mentalist abilities and then buy the "One Way Link" (+1) advantage. Then when your done kicking the snot out of your wife's PC...buy her flowers or its couch time for you. Take the word of one who knows. Vigil

Re: Entangle Abuse I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, since I didn't read all the posts, but the solution seems simple...compromise. Tell the PC that given his behaviour and the way he's stretching the power he can either a) recalculate the power as Damage Shield or by the "cannot form barriers" limit and then apply the additional points he'd get to strengthening the entangle or c) make him buy the entangle with 1 Recoverable Charge, so he can't do this trick over and over and defend himself with it. Beyond there there seems to be a glaring flaw in the construction of the power from the premise as stated. If the PC wants an Entangle that he can throw on someone and then pound them without it interfering he needs to buy the Entangle with the Takes No Damage adavantage (probably +1/4). It seems that the PC may have misunderstood the meaning/application of Personal Immunity in this case. The way I always interpret PI is that if the power is somehow turned on a PC with PI then they are not affected by it (ie a reflected EB). So, if someone threw his muck net back at him (maybe it should be bought with "Can Be Missle Deflected") then it wouldn't stick..it would slip off him and fall to the ground or be "reabsorbed" according to the SFX. If that's the case then he and his net are fundamentally incompatible...he can't hide in it or cover himself with it as it'll just slip off. It seems to me that what your PC is describing isn't PI at all but Takes No Damage. I'd offer him the chance to rewrite is as such and then look at it from there before going to the other options I've stated above. That's the way I'd play it. Vigil

Re: Deathstroke I'd argue that it's probably Slade who has the greater willpower (EGO). Look at the evidence. Kyle was a mediocre, unmotivated artist/schlub who got the ring more or less by chance and gradually grew into the role. Slade is a military machine, disciplined and used to working under extraordinarily stressful and taxing environments. Plus the treatments he got enhanced all of his faculties so I'm asuming there was some boost to EGO etc. I think it's pretty likely, in fact, that Slade would win a battle of wills with most Green Lanterns short of Hal Jordan or Alan Scott. In essence, Slade parallels Magneto who has a vast, almost unbreakable will to the point where he while not a trained psionic can engage in battle sof will with Prof. X. Slade's kinda the same way. he may not be atrained psychic but his raw willpower and tactical sense allow him to engage in such things with a reasonable hope of success. Plus, Slade is a vastly more experienced fighter and tactician than Kyle and reacts way faster, too. He fights smarter and with more economy plus he's way more ruthelss and less intimidated by extreme violence. I'm kinda surprised, actually, that Slade hasn't done something like this to Kyle before.

Re: Deathstroke Plus, in simple Champs terms, what Slade did to Kyle was one helluva PRE attack. Think about it. Something like a 35 base PRE (seems about right) for Slade add -1d6 for in combat, +1d6 for Kyle being surprised (Slade grabbbing Kyle's hand), +3d6 for incredibly violent action (running Wally through and crushing Kyle's hand), +1d6 for exhibiting a power (willpower or whomping the rest of the League's asses), +2d6 for a very appropriate setting ( in the midst of the whomped Leagues asses) and +3d6 for Slade's rep for a 16d6 PRE Attack. Assuming Slade rolls okay we'd be looking at a botu a PRE attack of 56. Even if Kyle's PRE is around 25 (which I think may even be a bit high) Slade gets PRE +30 and a fair shot at overwhelming Kyle's willpower. I think that's what was happening at that point in IC.

Re: New Book: Superheroes and Philosophy Sounds great. I'm reading the Star Trek Guide to Metaphysics right now and read The Gospel According to The Simpsons a while ago so it should be a great companion volume. Any spoilers? We know that Dr. Manhatten is, essentially, a solipsist. Is Superman an scientific materialist? Is bats utilitarian? Can't wait. Vigil

Re: Deathstroke Well, Katherine, my advice to you would be to stay the hell away from those damned horses cause they'll be the death of you. As for Deathstroke the Identity Crisis skirmish may be a stretch but really not all that much of one. The JLA were loopy, crazy with grief and not thinking striaght. Slade had home field advantage, time to prepare and was dispassionate about what was going on. Plus, the JLA weren't giving Slade credit for being as dangerous as he is...which he was counting on and used to his advantage. Slade fought the JLA the way Batman would have...which is why it worked. In fact, the Identity Crisis Deathstroke is probably a lot closer to the original concept of Slade than he's been depicted in years. Vigil

Re: How to - The Creeper? I'd just build him as Multiform (Ryder to Creeper) with an Accidental Change to Jack Ryder since the forms are differen tenough to rate as 2 distinct characters. Remember, just cause the identities have knowledge of eac other and maybe even some duplicate skills (although I don't see that in this case) doesn't mean they aren't distinct IDs. Multiform's the easiet and most straightforward way to express this. Vigil

Re: How to - The Creeper? And with The Creeper you get to go nuts with the regeneration. In fact, it might even be bought as oEND, Persistent Healing or Succor since it seems to affect Drains, etc.

Re: How to - The Creeper? They're different enough that I'd give them Multiform, maybe with one or two disads that can be used as "common ground".