Vigil

Re: Professor X vs Hector Hammond That would be funny, but as it is, Prof X could still run him over.

Re: Professor X vs Hector Hammond I was thinking of the classic wheelchair bound Prof. X. The walking Prof X is just too lame for words.

I just finished reading the very fine GL #6 and it got me to thinking about how sneaky and effective and powerful of a telepath Hecotr Hammond really is. But, is heas sneaky and efferctive as powerful as Professor X? Let the battle of the telepaths commence! The setting: the ever dshifting mindscape of the astral plane. The combatants: the world's two mightiest telepaths, Hector Hammiond and Professor X! Who will be the greatest telepath in two realities?!

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF? I think I must have fallen into the twilight zone here. To me it's utterly proposterous and unsupported to put Bruce in Reed's league as an intellect, and even worse as a gadgeteer. Reed is the predominant thinker on earth, maybe the greatest intellect in history. Bruce is smart and tricky but he's not in that league (no pun intended). Reed's peers in DC are guys like Himon, Metron or the ultra techy Lex Luthor or robot Brainiac of the past. When it comes to science, reed is in a league all his own.

Re: Gravitar vs Graviton? In his very first appearance (Avengers 158), Graviton captured and transported a piece of mountain containing an entire village all across North America from Canada to NY, while fighting the Avengers. For pure power he may be one of the top five terrestrial villains in Marvel. I don't think he's used anywhere near enough.

Re: Gravitar vs Graviton? Absolutely. I think Graviton is both more powerful and more versatile. I'm not sure if you recall but during his second of third foray he fought the Thing and Alpha Flight and managed to turn himself into a black hole by overloading his powers. That's apretty impressive amount of power. In fact, I think Magneto vs graviton would be a very interesting match up, although I'd have to give it to Mags based on experience, if not raw power.

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF? Say what Daeudi? Because Reed and Doom are equally brilliant at creating last minute gadgets Batman is more powerful than them? It's funny but I don't think there's anything "obvious" about Batman being more powerful than Reed, nevertheless Doom. Did Batman tell you this? In fact, I think there's tons of evidence to the contrary. As for Sue being Marvel's equivalent of GL? Well, this's the first time I've ever heard that and I've read both lines for over 30 years. I think Dr. Spectrum is a much more obviously equal to Gl type character and Sue is vastly different. She's undeniably powerful, that's true but I don't see much of any baiss to compare her to GL.

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF? So you wouldn't even give Byrne credit for the coronary that he induced? That's cold, man, cold. Vigil

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF? The problem with your Superman XP theory, Oddhat and with any XP theory is that characters are never shown as growing gradually. With Supes, one day he was "x" powerful and the next he was blowing out stars. Even at the beginning he grew by leaps, not steps. Even after Crisis, when I had hope for several minutes that Superman's absurd extremes would be constrained he quickly mushroomed back to his old over-the-top, porcine characterization. In many ways, Superman is the poster child for lousy character construction. He just gets more and more baroque. There never seems to be any thought as to solving problems with the application of powers or skills at Superman's current level. Instead the solution pretty much universally seems to be to increase Superman's powers to the point where the problem just vanishes. Right now, he's to the point where hes almost as imbalanced as he was just before the Crisis...maybe that's why there's another Crisis now, to "prune' Superman's excesses. I almost laughed out loud during the In the Name of Gog (imo another moronic character btw) arc when Superman coyly said that Jonn's the most powerful member of the JLA and that whatever it is Superman's sure he can handle it? Yeah right! Has that ever been demonstrated? Maybe Superman's delusional? Drunk? Insane? I don't know. But it's always this kind of coy storytelling that reveals Superman as the bloated pig of a character that he is. Given his incredibly disproportionate power level, the rest of the JLA are simply irrelevant. If Supes can't handle it, they're screwed. And if he can, they're unneccessary as anything other than a chearing and mop up section. That's always been the problem with and, seemingly, always will be the problem with Superman. He's aan idea that always lacks in the execution. But that's just my opinion. Vigil

Re: Super-Villain Showdown: The Taskmaster vs Deathstroke the Terminator. Maybe somewhat similar in appearance and function but very different power and personality wise.

Re: your campaigns "Superman". I have not one but three superclones operating in my campaign, and all of them are evil. The first is Mr. Damocles. He's the resident leg breaker for my campaigns major villain, Rex Monday. In his origin, he's an enforcer working for the local crime syndicate on the world of Halon. The syndicate has leant lots of money to a local scientist so he can fund his crazy rocket experiments. Finally, the tab comes due just as this wacko starts screaming about the end of the world. Damocles goes to collect the "big" and, while there, discovers that the scientist may be right about this end of the world stuff after all. So, he guns down the scientist and hios wife and, moments before the planet explodes, punts their infant son out of the rocket and forces himself in, instead. Shortly after arriving on Earth he is recruited into the Cartel as Rex Monday's bodyguard and he hasn't looked back since. He's an egocentric pug who loves brawling and humiliating and terrifying his targets. The second is Paragon. He's from one of my campaigns alternate Earth's. In his reality his howeworld is Jove. He's much more based on the original idea behind the Golden Age Superman and that is that it's Earth's lesser gravity which gives him his powers, not the yellow sun. So, he's a gravity and density manipulator with stuff like Grav Vision instead of Heat Vision. Similarly, he can increase his 70 STR to 120 through DI. Same goes for invulnerability. Anyway, I really like him cause he's abit farther from the standard Earth 1 Superman archetype and much more in the vein of the original. In his backstory he's actually an infiltrator sendt by his race to weaken or eliminate Futura's defenses and society in order to annex them into the empire. He's a hard, cold, fascist who feigns human emotion as he poses as Futura's greatest hero. He's a nice contrast between the superficial and what lies underneath. Finally, there's Harrow. Like Damocles he is from the planet Halon buthis Halon is his dimension's version of that world. He has a very long and complex backstor, which I won't bore all you with here. He is the most devleoped of my superclones and has the added benefit of being more based on Ultraman than Superman. So, unlike Mr. Damocles, Harrow actually absorbs the Halonite native to his reality to power himself. He has to be careful, though, cause it's not an inexhaustible supply. On the main campaign Earth, he's even more dangerous cause earth Halonite gives him permanent new powers with each exposure. Futuran halonite removes his powers temporaily and finally, the very rare Akkadian halonite is fatal like green k. Truth to tell, I've always intesely disliked Superman. I think he boring and fundamentally unbalanced, especially during the Silver Age when he was so over-the-top omnipotent that it was impossible to even create in his comics. He's not much bteer now. He's stilll proportionately omniscient and pretty much perfect. To me, that kind of character can only serve as a viallin and that's what he does in my campaign. So, in my world the might is on the evil side and the right has to function from wit and superior team work and tactics. The heavy hitters on the side of right are based much more on the Thor, Hercules and Hulk archetypes. The main good guy is a combination of Doc Savage and Adam Warlock. As a GM, I think it's more interesting for the strugle for good to be an uphill batlle rather than a cakewalk based on one character's absurdly imbalanced omnipotence. Vigil

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty No problem. It happens.

Re: Doomsday evolution power Personally, I think the Damage Reduction and Adaptation Pool ideas both have merit. With Doomsday, however, it's a case of. literally, whatever killed him makes him stronger. Given that, I think the damage reduction approach may be simplest. I'd go with something like 3/4 Damage Reduction with the Limit that it only applies in the next encounter (maybe a -1/4 at most, but really more of a plot deevice or SFX than anything) and with the Trigger Advantage, the trigger being the power that killed him in the previous encounter. Not the most elegant solution but Doosday isn't the most elegant character either. BTW, the most elegant character would, of course, be the Golden Age character, Mr. Elegance. Vigil

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty Apparently my attempt at humor fell somewhat flat. That's exactly what I was trying to express, Oddhat. Be that as it may, as a resident of Voorhees NJ, I would assume that you would be partial to your city's namesake, Jason, in any such contests.

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty Wait a minute, Solomon. Are you suggesting that there could be any possible dispute in who would win if Cap fought Bat-Man? Clearly, in any such fight, Deathstroke would win.

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty Could be. There was period there when there were 2 Titans books running and one had an arc where Gar started assuming alien, Lovecraftian forms so that could be what you're referring to. Or, my memory could be faulty. One's as likely as the other. IIRC, the story I'm thinking of occured sometime around #55 of Tales of the Teen Titans. Maybe it was the aftermath of The Judas Contract where Gar blamed Slade for Terra's death or something similar. Vigil

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty i recall the instance you're siting. Gar snapped, turned into an elephant and tried to crush/gore deathstroke to death. The thing about that was, Slade wasn't fighting back. he was remorseful (for some reason or other) and didn't care if he lived, if I recall correctly. I guess the issue is one of whether 45 can be considered "significant" superhuman STR. That's the level that Spidey would have. Is his STR significant? I think that Spidey, like Slade is considered as something other than a brick although his STR qualifies him as a low end one. I mean, look at it this way, Luke Cage is considered more of a brick than Spodey even though his STR score may well be lower. I guess it's as much in the attitude as the stats. Vigil

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty Choosing a greatest moment for Cap is almost impossible. There are so many possibilities. I thought of the Korvac Saga. which certainly is the team's greatest moment, without a doubt. Also, some of the Ultron appearances really play up Cap. But I thought of the Kang Dynasty cause it seems to be the most balanced between Cap as a leader and as a fighter.

Re: Super-Villain Showdown: The Taskmaster vs Deathstroke the Terminator. hmmm. seems I wasn't the first to think this up, lol.

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF? Ha, Ha!! I call Franklin AND The Brute for my team...and Galactus too! He's kinda a member.

Re: Super-Villain Showdown: The Taskmaster vs Deathstroke the Terminator. Wow! I didn't know about the FF Spidey thing, I never picked the mini-series up, but boy does that sound dumb. It could also be disastrous if he watched ift on FF then accidentally hit STOP half way through and logged that in his memory. Could make for some awkward phtographic reflexes moments.

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty You may have a point, Log , but I think my number's work pretty well when compared to comic book reality. Cap's 30 STR means that in champs terms he can lift almost 2 tons. That's considerably more than he is usually indicated for Cap (who on pure lifting power alone would probably be arouns a 20 STR) but it seems to make sense within the character and comic book human max is different than like super agent human max, so I think it's justified. As for Deathstroke's 45 STR he's been shown as holding his own ina test of STR with Cyborg who, I think would rank around a 50 STR. Also, if memory serves,in some of his early appearances he flipped cars aside very casually. To me the trick comes in that while he can "technically" in Champs terms lift 10 tons, and while the evidence does seem to support the idea, at least, Slade is always portrayed as a MA not a brick so he doesn't do the "feats of STR" thing. The other possibility, which may work for Spidey also is to give him a STR 35 and assume he's pushing to lift those 10 tons. Vigil

In the fine tradition of polling and in the spirit of "what if?" here's another match up made in comic book heaven. In one corner you have Deathstroke the Terminator. Everyone knows him, here, and knows what he's cpable of doing. To make it really interesting let's say this is the Deathstroke from Identity Crisis. That's Slade at his baddest. In the other corner, you have the Taskmaster, that little known forerunner to the Midnighter. Let's say he's appearing fresh from his appearance in Avengers #195 where he gave the team a little bit of a run for their money and a bit of a wake up call. The situation: both have been offered the role of main enforcer in Luthor's new SSOSV but only the survivior will be given the position. The setting is the streets and alleys of New york. They have 24 hours to find and eliminate each other. Who would win? Vigil

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF? ANY FF meber you say? Okay then I choose the Brute...the Reed Richards of counter earth. He's as strong as the Hulk and has a Hulk-like temper combined with Reed's intellect. He was a member briefly when he infiltrated and replaced Reed. He should be one of the premiere villains of the MU but no one, so far, has used him to his potential. If not the Brute, then I'd go with the real Reed but I can't help but think that Reed would pull his punches. With his tech he could probably cobble something together to dismantle Sue's force field in a few phases but Reed seems to always hold back for some reason. Maybe somewhere in that great mind, Reed is frightened of discovering his full potential. I mean, i think he's the coolest of all the stretchy characters but he does seem to make the least of his powers a lot of the time. If Reed were agressive and not holding back (yeah, right, as if) I'd give it to Reed. Otherwise it's all Sue with ben ranking third and Johnny last. Now, however, if Franklin has his powers and he sees anyone hurting mommy it's game over for them. Vigil

Re: Who Would Win: Deathstroke the Terminator vs. Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty In Champs terms, off the cuff I think our two combatabnts would look something like this: DEATHSTROKE STR 45 (he seems to be in the "lift ten tons" US Agent/ Spidey range) DEX 35 (given that functional "superhuman human" max is 30 DEX, I think this works) CON 30 (about what I'd put Wolverine at) BOD 18 (he's tough) INT 30 (and smart as a whip) EGO 18 (close to the human max of 20 and about the same as Cyclops) PRE 35 (he's intimidating enough to PRE attack entire teams) COM 20 (movie star looks, too) PD 18 (+12rPD from Armor) = 30 ED 18 (+12rED from Armor) = 30 SPD 8 (superhuman reflexes) REC 15 (about the same as Wolverine) END 60 (should be good) STN 60 (take's a lickin' and keeps on kickin') Now I won't bother with levels cause there's so subjective and arbitrary it isn't even funny. But, in tone, Deathstroke is a brilliant tactician, the world's highest paid mercenary/assassin with superhuman physical capabilities (his phsycial augmentation to where he uses 95% of his brain is the justification for his superhuman abilties). plus he'd have lots of MA with extra DCs and enhanced senses, some regeneration, etc and all his gadgets. CAPTAIN AMERICA STR 30 (comic book human max) DEX 30 (ditto, maybe with some Lightning Reflexes when using his shield) CON 28 (not quite as rugged as Wolvie or Deathstroke) BODY 20 (what can I say, he's Cap and he never says die) INT 18 (he's bright) EGO 20 (maybe even up to 23 or so, he's no mentalist but you can't tell that from his willpower...give hima GL ring and he'd be hell on wheels) PRE 50 (he's Cap...he's commanded gods and androids and everything else and they've followed him into hell without a second thought or a doubt) COM 20 (another matinee idol) PD 15 (+3rPD from Chainmail plus some ungodly amount, maybe +30rPD from his shield and that may even have damage reduction on top of it, but I think the damage reduction would have an activation on it and the shield would be something like 15- Act...but it would take more careful thought than what I'm doing right now, so take it with a grain of salt) ED 15 (and ditto) SPD 7 (as fast as a human gets) REC 15 (same as Deathstroke) END 60 (and 0 END Cost STR to boot) STN 60 (he's got to spend all that exp somewhere and this makes sense) So, this's kinda the ballpark I'm thinking in for these guys. Deathstroke's stronger, faster, more agile and may even have more combat levels etc. But Cap's got tons of experience and that damn shield that makes him almost invulnerable. Without it, I think Deathstroke would punch Cap's lights out but with it.... Vigil