Sean Waters

Yeah, I think that was what was happening to me...

Removed because I could not work out how to use

The problem with the healing rules is this: Stun heals completely in a minute or so; Body takes a month to heal (even if you apportion it it will take 3 days to heal a point of Body) PLUS there is no real effect from taking Body damage unless you use the optional disabling rules. At the moment you can be beaten unconscious every 10 minutes and it has no real effect on you. I'm not sure how realistic or intuitive that is. What have I seen? More emphasis on healing skills, more consideration in getting into combat, more use of manoeuvres that reduce the damage you take through dodging or rolling with the punch. Bruising is an additional complication, obviously, but you have to decide what you want. Body damage (generally) means nothing until you hit a threshold.

Liked for using the word 'grok'.

Flying dodge certainly gives you the benefit of range modifiers if you move further away, but specifically says that you can not get the advantage of cover: I would probably play it the same way with triggered movement.

I think most people instinctively shy away from abusive builds, and you explain better than i did why I had a go at re-drafting it. There do seem to be explicit excesses built in. Thinking about it I might remove the 'Reaction Trigger' entirely from my write up and build that another way, either with a different modifier or, perhaps better, a combat manoeuvre that allows you to abort to an attack, albeit at penalties. In my experience a counter attack is not an 'extra attack', it is a way to exploit an opening or mistake your opponent makes. In fact it may be best built as a new combat manoeuvre that gives you bonuses but requires that you be using a held action and follow an attack. Something like: Counterattack +1 OCV / +1 DCV / Damage +1DC : Must be using a held action, must follow an attack on you I like that, because if your opponent can see that you are holding your action they may be wary of attacking you. Someone will have to blink eventually...but that is more like real combat - it often happens in flurries.

Here is an idea for you. It is quite a big change, but produces interesting results. When you buy an attack power you have to define each DC as 'Penetration' or 'Damage'. When you attack with a 'Standard Attack', like normal Strength, or a combat manoeuvre, half the DCs rounded up go to Penetration. All attacks in frameworks should be considered Standard Attacks unless they are the only attack of that type in the framework. The way this works is that you roll your 'Penetration dice and, if you equal or exceed the defences of the target then all your damage dice cause damage.This makes weapons generally less damaging and armour generally more effective, which can be good for heroic games. It also means that if you do not exceed the armour threshold the attack bounces which, personally, I like as it makes it harder to nickel and dime the heroes. This is good for Heroes v Hordes as generally heroes have better armour, but usually makes EOL Bosses tougher. This also better differentiates the qualities of individual weapons and makes a magic sword that cuts through armour easy to build. Example 1: you have Lightning Blast attack that is particularly good at ignoring armour. It is a 9d6 attack, and you decide that 5 dice go to Penetration and 4 dice to Damage (it will always be in that ratio once bought). You cast your spell at Gruntor the Mighty who has 8PD and 8ED and wears The Armour of the Ancestors which provides 7rPD and 5rED, so you need to roll 13 or more on 5d6 to do 4d6 Stun damage. You are never going to equal 13 with the Body damage, so ignore that. You average 14 Stun damage. Example 2: you have a Sword which does a 1 1/2d6 KA (3d6 with 20 STR). You have decided that swords are better at cutting flesh than armour so 1 DC is Penetration and 4DC is allocated to Damage. The +4 DCs from STR go 2 to AD, and 2 to Damage, so you roll 1d6 (3DCs) and see if you can exceed the defences of the target. If we are aiming at Gruntor then you can not exceed 6 Body damage, so can not do Body as he has 7rPD, but if you do 13 or more with your Stun multiplier factored in (you are going to need to roll a 3x Stun multiplier and have 5 or 6 on your first roll), all 6DCs of Stun Damage get through and you roll 2d6 and a 1/2 d6 Stun multiplier. You will average no Body and 14 Stun if you get through defences. Example 3: not happy that you are struggling to damage the heavily armoured barbarian you come back with a Warhammer that is defined as 4 DCs Penetration, and 1DC Damage, so 6 DCs of Penetration: 2d6 Kill - you have a better than even chance of exceeding the Body armour of 7 and a pretty good chance of exceeding the Stun threshold of 13 too: if you do the Barbarian takes 3DCs of damage (1d6 KA), which would average 3 or 4 Body and 7 Stun. Comparison: you would expect 9DCs of Killing damage to average 10.5 Body and 21 Stun (i.e. 3 or 4 Body and 8 Stun through defences). A 9DC normal attack will average 31.5 Stun and 9 Body, so 18 or 19 damage. Obviously Grunthor has pretty good armour so is quite hard to damage anyway.

Ever the voice of reason. That is ONE reason I have issues - I have posted another above. There's more... Trigger seriously overlaps other builds: the electric floor Crusher Bob mentioned? Uncontrolled AoE. I don't think giving extra attacks/moves for very little cost is appropriate - buy Autofire, or extra SPD or more Movement Power. Trigger has splurged out from an Advantage that was there to allow you to set booby traps to something that you can win fights with for less then the price of adding Fine Manipulation to your TK - see above.

So, problems I have with Trigger. Take a look at this: Disintegrate 5 points of Blast NND: electricity defences (+1) Does Body (+1) Trigger + ¼ Automatic reset takes no time to reset + ½ Activating trigger takes no time + ¼ Two trigger conditions + ¼ (whatever is grabbed or being grabbed) Total +3 1/4 1 (20 active points) Concentration (0 DCV Completely Unaware) - ¾ Extra time 1 Turn -1 ¼ Two handed gestures – ½ Incantations – ¼ Extra Endurance – 10x END (costs 20 END) - 4 Total -6 ¾ (3 real points) What it appears to do, unless they have NND immunity, is completely destroy them: the trigger goes off, they take 1 Body, it resets (no time) and activates again (no time) and they take 1 Body. Rinse and repeat until they are dead, all instantly. Boom. Sure it is a real effort to turn on, but the activation conditions DO NOT APPLY when the power goes off because you only need them to set the trigger, not to keep it resetting. An abuse? Yes. Of course. Legal though…actually SPECIFICALLY legal. It specifically says this is OK, so it may LOOK abusive but, well, it’s fine.

If what you are after is more 'long term effect' from combat I have used a house rule that every 5 full points of Stun through defences causes 1 point of Bruising damage. Bruising damage can be used in a number of ways. You can use some or all of them. First you can add it to the total damage you have taken to determine if the character is KO'd (you can do something similar with END too - if you are bettered you have less energy). Second (and this has more immediate effect) you can add it to damage through defences to determine if the character is Stunned. If this is too nasty, you can add half of it, or whatever ratio you like. Third (if you want 'more Body but not completely lethal) every 5 full points of Bruise damage does 1 Body. Lastly, if you want a really rather brutish game you can deduct Bruise damage/5 from defences - once you are injured you are more susceptible to damage. Bruise damage heals at REC/day, but faster if someone makes a Paramedic Roll. Healing Bruising does not restore lost Body - that has to be healed normally. This is more book keeping but gives a grittier feel as characters can not just run from one encounter to another with impunity after a minute of rest. It also makes avoiding or reducing damage more important and makes Field Medicine a more important part of the game. Bruising is not a characteristic. You can obviously tweak the 5 points up or down depending on how much Bruise damage you want to inflict, and also mess with the Healing rate. The way I see this is like a Boxing match - a minute's rest between rounds is not going to let you get all your health back, but most of the injuries you receive will be gone in a few days - and this despite the fact you may never have actually taken any Body damage directly from the attack.

I'm not really familiar with the characters but I found this: http://prototype.wikia.com/wiki/Alex_Mercer So the 'consume' would be a Multiform in a VPP, I imagine and the bioweapons are a 'damage powers' multiform, and some resistant defence (possibly non-persistent). Then it is all just SFX

I'm going to be a whiny little bitch about this but, Piercing... So 2 points to reduce 1 point of resistant defence. OK, sounds like a sort of 'instant and specific' defence drain. If we look how that works: Say the target has 20PD Compare (1) 8d6+5 points of Piercing to (2) a straight 10d6 attack. 1. applies 8d6 (average 28) to a defence of 15: 13 through defences 2. applies 10d6 (average 35) to a defence of 20: 15 through defences Advantage more damage. The other issue - and this used the example in AGP1: if you add Armour Piercing to your attack the Piercing adds to base damage but reduces defences before you apply damage Compare (1) 8d6+5 points of Piercing +AP to (2) a straight 10d6 attack +AP. 1. applies 8d6 (average 28) to a defence of 15, halved to 8: 20 through defences 2. applies 10d6 (average 35) to a defence of 20, halved to 10: 25 through defences Advantage more damage NB in this example both attacks have a roughly equal chance of getting some Body damage through as well. Piercing may seem like a different mechanic but what it is doing is adding 1 more point of STUN for 2 character points, or 3.5 extra Stun for 7: an extra 1d6 damage is still a better bet. Piercing is more predictable, but a 5 point spend increases damage by 2.5, so you are worse off 2/3 of the time. OK. Let's look at resistant defences. (1) 2d6 KA + 5 Piercing against (2) 3d6 KA, both against 10rPD/20PD (1) 7 Body and 14 Stun (averages) applies to 5rPD and 15PD: 2 Body through defences, no Stun through defences (but, and I don't know if this is an actual rule or a house rule, always require a target takes at least 1 Stun per Body through defences) (2) 10.5 Body and 21 (averages) applies to 10rPD and 20PD: .5 Body through defences and1 Stun Advantage Piercing So, Piercing is much better against KAs than it is against normal attacks compared to the same point cost of base attack, at least in these examples. Add in AP as an advantage and see what happens.. (1) 7 Body and 14 Stun (averages) applies to 5rPD and 15PD, halved to 3rPD and 8 PD: 4 Body through defences, 6 Stun through defences (2) 10.5 Body and 21 (averages) applies to 10rPD and 20PD halved to 5rPD and 10PD: 5.5 Body through defences and 11 Stun Advantage more damage - again Piercing only really works (at least in these examples) when applied on its own. That is because 1 point of Killing Damage costs 15/3.5 = 4.28 character points , and you are getting the defence reduction (which is the same as extra damage if resistant defences are common) for 3. Put another way 15 points in Piercing effectively adds 5 points to Body damage rather than 3.5. I mean, it is certainly an option, and relatively easy to administer, but I'm not convinced that it is entirely balanced. I'd best not start on Flash/Mental/Power defence because then it really weird. 15 points of Piercing gives you 5 'extra damage' and 15 points of drain gives you 5.25 'extra damage' - OK that is marginal. Flash: 15 points of Piercing - again 5 extra damage, 15 points of Flash is 3 extra damage - big advantage Piercing. Mental powers - 5 for Piercing, 10.5 for Mental attack powers - definitely not worth it PLUS Piercing is only any use if you the opponent has those defences. So, it does not apply as intuitively as it seems. OTOH, it does describe what you are after: a sword that only works better against armour. Cool. Mind you, if you balanced the point cost it is worse against an unarmoured opponent, and that does not seem like the intent. (1) 7 Body and 14 Stun (averages) applies to 5rPD and 15PD: 2 Body through defences, no Stun through defences (but, and I don't know if this is an actual rule or a house rule, always require a target takes at least 1 Stun per Body through defences) (2) 10.5 Body and 21 (averages) applies to 10rPD and 20PD: .5 Body through defences and1 Stun

On the topic of Complications, it seems to me they are not all created equal. A character that has a susceptibility will often have that come up a lot as there is often a lot of combat, but a DNPC or Hunted might not come up much at all (whatever the activation roll) if the campaign is mainly set of Doctor Despero's Isle of Terror - and if they do come up it is a lot more work for the GM making them make sense. An alternative to the complication system might be helpful.

It would also be nice to see a 'game modding' discussion. This could be as simple as build guidelines for heroes - for example I noticed that (and it may just be me) the sample supers in 6e have defences of around 20, SPD of 5 or 6 and CVs of 8 and (most of them) PLUS skill levels or martial arts not terribly high STUN. This creates a certain game-feel. These are 400 point characters, mind. If you were to increase defences a bit, maybe reduce SPD, it would lengthen combats, if you were to build less balanced characters it would probably shorten them. The design philosophy is important, but you have to know what effect it is all going to have, and a discussion of how to build characters for a certain experience would be welcome. Even things like meta-rules: sometimes Superheroes don't feel that super, especially against reasonably realistic military tech. I ran a game where, if you had the 'supergene' all damage you took from non-superpowered attackers was halved after other defences and all damage you caused to objects and non-superpowered opponents was doubled after other defences. It created a feel that the heroes and villains were really powerful without simply handing out more character points; supervillains were terrifying to normals and could only really be tackled by superheroes. You could bring in a horde of alien invaders with superior weapons and that could crush the armies of Earth but get thrown back by a supergroup. This sort of campaign meta-rule can substantially change what the characters feel like in play. It would be nice to see something like this discussed in an official book.

Cinematic Rules/Complication Expansion I first saw this in Unknown Armies, but other systems (notably DnD5) have adopted something similar: you can define your passions, fears and ideals. When you are playing in accordance with them you get bonuses, so if you are particularly upset by terrorism, for example, you might get bonuses to hit or damage in combat against terrorists. If your secret fear is losing your family, you might get bonuses (or penalties) if they are threatened. That sort of thing. We already have complications but they don't necessarily have much instant in-game impact. It would be nice to have a system that rewards role playing not with XP necessarily but with advantages you can use there and then. I used to love City of Heroes and they had a system of bonuses you could trigger to increase your abilities. You could only have so many and when they were gone, they were gone, but you could horde them against desperation, of boss-battles. An optional system for this sort of reward could work well in Hero.

An early (if not 1st) edition of Villains and Vigilantes had a very workable legal system. Something like: If someone is prosecuted they have a 30% chance of conviction if they are innocent and a 70% chance if they are guilty... Then it had a bunch of other modifiers like skill of lawyer, bribes, witness availability and such and modifiers that PCs could influence, like their own skill as witnesses, any evidence they could gather and so on. The whole thing was less than 2 pages long and gave you a % chance of conviction. I think something like that is useful - no one wants to role play an entire trial, but knowing whether the villains you caught get out on a technicality that is not purely plot driven is quite a nice addition to the game.

Last thread I'm going to start about this, I promise. Having had some interesting discussions with Crusher Bob and others recently, I have decided to have a go at House Ruling the 'Trigger' power modifier. Critiques welcome (I just know I'm going to regret saying that...) Trigger Variable cost This power modifier allows a character to set a power to activate in pre-determined circumstances. It takes as long to Set a Power as it would to use the power normally, and all other strictures apply, so Setting an Attack power will normally end your phase, unless it is a Triggered Reaction (see below). If there are power modifiers that change how a power is activated they must always be observed; for example if the power requires Gestures, those Gestures must be made at the time the power is Set. The power is considered to be used when the trigger is set; that is you have to fulfil all the requirements for activating the power (including paying any END cost), even though the power's effects do not occur until a trigger condition is met. Once a power is set with a trigger it is referred to as a ‘Set Power’. If you put a Set Power on another character they are always aware of this, unless the power is bought with sufficient levels of Invisible Power such that they would not be aware of being attacked with the power. You must observe any strictures that apply to a Set Power that is activated so Attack powers require a roll to hit at the time of activation using the combat values of the character at the time it was set, although Area of Effect attacks are considered to go off where they are set and never scatter. Any activation roll is also checked at this time. A Set Mental Power is considered to start when activated for the purposes of breakout rolls. The trigger condition must be defined in advance, but there may be several conditions that need to be fulfilled or several alternatives, any of which need to be fulfilled. The trigger condition is determined when the power is bought unless you have paid to be able to change the trigger condition, in which case it is determined when the trigger is set. You may buy a defined triggered power that has several settings: for example you could buy a triggered power with a ‘time’ condition and set the time before it is activated. You may buy a triggered power with several pre-defined activation requirements and set which one or ones apply when the Power is Set. You should not have more than three pre-defined conditions that can be set. A variable trigger condition can be set to activate immediately (effectively allowing you to use the power in the same way as if it did not have a trigger). A deactivation condition can also be determined when the trigger is defined. Ranged powers can be Set at range, but you do not need a power to be ranged to use it with trigger: once the trigger is set, the distance between the Set Power and the character that Set it is largely irrelevant. If a Set Power is an attack, the target must be set when the power is set unless you Control a Set power. Powers can be triggered by any action that the setting character could detect or that the character would logically have access to. A bomb (a triggered RKA Explosion) could be set off with a pressure sensor as the setting character can detect pressure, or for some other common and easily understood method, for example a coded radio signal. Set Powers remain indefinitely until the trigger condition is fulfilled at which time the power is activated. Once a power is activated it goes off immediately, and this may interrupt (but not end) the action of whatever triggered it. A Set Power takes no time to activate. A Set Power remains where it was set unless Set on a moveable object or a character, in which case it moves with the object or character. If the power is visible in normal use then the Set power is visible until used, but not usually obvious: a triggered fireball does not necessarily glow like a fire while it is just sitting there. What a Set Power looks like should be determined when the power is bought as it is part of the SFX. A Set Power may be deactivated in a number of ways other than by triggering it. 1. If a deactivation condition has been set, this can be fulfilled. 2. If a character is aware of a Set Power, they can attempt to deactivate or move it; the method of deactivation should be defined when the power is bought or set will depend on the nature of the trigger but must be a reasonably common or straightforward method and is subject to GM approval. Generally a Set Power can not be reset by a third party, unless it has the +0 modifier when bought. This allows others to sabotage a Set Power, but also allows allies to change a Set Power or easily deactivate it or circumvent it. You may have an automatic reset. Generally it takes as long for a power to automatically reset as it did to set it, but this does not require any action on the part of the character. A Triggered power with automatic reset will reset a pre-determined number of times, or until deactivated. Triggered Reaction This differs from a normal Set Power in that you have started to activate it (and done all the preparation) but the power is not considered used until you actually use it, so you pay END (if you have to) when the power goes off. A character may control what happens when a Set power is activated if the trigger is defined that way when the power is bought. This is referred to as a Triggered Reaction. Taking a Triggered Reaction requires a zero phase action, so can only occur if the character has a zero phase action they can take. This allows you to, for example, control the target or power of a Set Attack Power when it is activated, or the direction and distance of a Set Movement Power. You may abort to control a Set Power, even if it is an attack power. You can not use a Triggered Reaction to move further than you normally could in a phase or attack more times than you normally could in a phase. Controlling a Set Attack power ends your phase. Generally a Triggered Reaction will be set on the character controlling it. If it is not then the character must have some way to communicate their intention to the Triggered Reaction. Notes Triggered Powers can be Set out of combat, but do be sensible: buying and setting 64 x 1d6 cumulative Mind Controls to make the first person to attack you your slave is possible but clearly an abuse. This is a Power Modifier and so you can not set it up to allow you to trigger a combat manoeuvre. If you set the trigger on an attack power that allows you to add Strength for your damage you should buy a Naked Advantage for your Strength if you want to add the damage with a triggered attack. It does not need to be built the same way as the Trigger modifier on the base power. Setting the trigger on your Strength is a zero phase non-attack action, when the purpose is to add to the damage of another power. This is also clearly open to abuse. A pre-defined trigger +1/4 A pre-defined trigger that can have several settings +1/2 A trigger that can be redefined at each use +1 Power can be reset by a third party +0 Set Power is not visible (but the power will be visible when it is activated if it is normally visible) +1/4. You can only have one Set Power operational at a time +0 You can have 2 Set Powers operational at a time +1/4 Each doubling +1/4 Note that if the triggered power also has the focus or charges modifier, you still need to pay to be able to Set more than one at a time. A triggered power which is also modified with ‘Autofire’ does not need to buy this modifier to cover the number of times that the power autofires. An automatically resetting trigger is still considered as just one use of the power and counts to the total you can have Set at one time. Automatic reset +1/2 Slow automatic reset (6 segments or more) +1/4 The character controls the Set Power when it is activated +0

Some contradiction int eh rules here as it also says this: There’s no limit to the number of Triggers or Triggered Powers a character may place on the same object/person/ place at once (or on different objects/persons/ places), unless the GM imposes one. Nor is there any limit to the number of powers he can Trigger at once by the same method, unless the GM restricts this

So, another question about 'trigger' - how smart is it? If I set up an attack, can I have a condition that it attacks only a certain person, i.e. can I make identity a trigger condition? The rules say that you can only use senses that you have, and you can certainly identify the target if they were in front of you, but is that how a trigger works? It seems a bit more than the intent of the power to me. Similarly, what control do you have over the power when it is triggered? None I assume, but can you give yourself the ability to control it with a clever trigger set? Say you have 20m of triggered movement that goes off when you are attacked, can you set the trigger to 'move to where I want to in range when the trigger is activated'. My view is that a trigger is set to do something specific and you then do not get to do what you like with it when it goes off, except in very general terms that are pre-defined and can not be changed once set. I'd be interested to know what people think, and why. I suppose you could get round this with 'character controls trigger'. Actually I'm a bit confused by that too: if you can set the trigger every time can you set a triggered power you control: I suppose that can allow you to move where you want, then, next time, set a trigger that someone else sets off so you don't need to be there. Hmm. I probably should be having this discussion in my head rather than on the forum...

Also I would assume that triggered movement only allows (like FD) you to move out of the way of a melee attack (unless you remain within the reach of the attacker) or AoE that you get out of the area of: it would not help against a ranged attack. Others may see that differently, but it seems to make that is in accordance with the spirit of the rules.

...of course it is then a question of how many powers you can set a trigger on and have active at a time... Sean Waters Trying to be correct

It may not be new, but a flying dodge is not the same as triggered movement. Triggered movement does not require you to sacrifice your next action and FD does not let you use two combat maneouvres in one phase as a combat manoeuvre ends your phase. What a triggered move does is moves you when the trigger is pulled, probably here 'if I am attacked'. In most cases even 2m of move would take you out of melee range and you could build an autoreset to allow you to dodge all melee attacks (I appreciate you have not here). In addition the limitation on the trigger is 'only lasts a phase phase', so once the phase is over then the trigger expires - you don't get another segment (although, if the next segment came round you could then Flying Dodge, if you had it, but obviously only the once). In fact having a one phase limitation effectively prevents an 'autododge' unless you trigger an attack against you on your phase, so I'm going back on what I said earlier - it is a limitation in that case. If this is JUST so you can move after attacking, why not simply use the combat manoeuvres that are designed for that? If the 'one phase' limitation is meant to be 'until next phase' then I would contend it is not a limitation in practice and does not get a cost break as you can easily reset it again before you would have used it anyway.

OK then... Good. Fine. I will be more precise in my use of game terms. Makes sense Ever notice how this means all things to all people? But if you have a trigger you can define every time you use it, you can define it as 'Now' and there is no practical difference. More. precision, I get it. I was asking 'Can you define a trigger as (say), "move forward 5 metres and automatically reset an re-execute if you have not reached the target point yet". This seems like a rule valid use, and allows virtually infinite movement at very low cost so long as you are creative enough in how you set the trigger." The reason we have rules, rather than a simple requirement to play the game fairly, is because different people interpret common and dramatic sense and game balance very differently. There is no good reason not to get the rules as clear and concise as we can, and the same with character builds. Correct

A flying dodge is a combat manoeuvre, so it follows the rules: you can't use it in the same segment you attack, so I think there is a difference there. As I understand the rules: I can not see why you should not be able to trigger non-combat movement, subject to the strictures that imposes: if you can trigger megascale movement then you can trigger non combat movement. If you buy a trigger on your movement and you exceed your normal combat movement in a phase. Not sure where the stretching question came from...I'd allow it to be used to change your viewpoint, but then I'd make Stretching a movement power. I'm not sure if I'm reading your shorthand right, but if you can trigger movement then you can do it after anything HOWEVER, I'd require you to define what the move is when you set the trigger. What you are not getting is more time to do a move, you are pulling a trigger for a power you have already set. If the power you trigger is 'move 20m due north' then you do, even if that runs you off a cliff'. If a triggered move interrupts an attack then you are not where you were when the attack lands. You could not use your triggered movement to chase someone as you would have to define the trigger when you set it. -2 is rarely an appropriate modifier - it is only really used for things that hardly ever happen, and I'm pretty sure everyone would be buying triggered movement if this is how you let it work.

Looks like an excellent way to hack off the GM and other players