Sean Waters

24 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

occasionally,

4 pages. Just saying.  I mean I use it occasionally, but if it was not there, something similar would happen anyway. It is not needed for what it is used for and it is not a good way of doing what it is used for.

24 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Does it matter?  GMs have an infinite point budget.  I'll just write "Meteor Bonus" under its Discomplivantationages.  

 

I do not understand your point.  The thing that I like about Hero is that I can build a 300 point character and it should be roughly the same in terms of utility as another 300 pint character, given certain common assumptions.  I can break the system with the best of them, but I don't because I trust in the process.

OK.  It matters to me.  I don't just make up villains, I cost them.  Maybe I'm an idiot and in the vast minority, but I'm happy here and cosy and warm.

Look, my point is this, and I think it is a good one: pretty much every reply to the 'PRE Attack Problem' is 'Well, don't do it then', in one form or another.

If we are never going to use it, why have it?

Just in case?  Just in case of what?  Just in case you forget how to GM properly?

50 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

As @Jagged pointed out above, it, along with all of the other X, X+10, X+20, etc., mechanics were originally X, X times 2, X times 3, etc.  It was a lot harder, if someone bought a few points worth of PRE or EGO, to affect them.  

 

If you're looking at it from the standpoint of the GM, then yes, a villain with 60 PRE and situational bonuses to their PRE attack can in theory wipe out all of the PCs.  But from the standpoint of the GM, you can drop an asteroid on them at any time and kill everyone.  

 

You can choose to wipe them out with whatever you've got, but remember that if you're making the game not fun for your players, they'll leave.  

 

You could as easily give that 60 PRE villain 120 PRE, or a thousand, or a million PRE.  As a GM, don't do that.  ("Doctor, it hurts when I do this!")  The players are a lot more constrained.  

How much would that meteor cost in CP though?  A player could not afford a Dinosaur Killer Power.  I'm not the sort of GM that chucks attacks at players they can not handle unless the whole plot revolves around them being defeated and captured and then escaping again (and even when that is what I have been trying to do, the PCs  have often foiled me, and more power to them for doing so).

Of course a GM can do whatever they want, at least until they scare off all their players, but that isn't me.  Well, not all the time.

My point, which I feel I have made ineffectively, is that we have rules for PRE Attacks we are never actually going to use.  No sane GM is going to use a 20d6 PRE Attack on the PCs or allow the PCs to have regular access to Dinosaur Killer levels of PRE Attack either.

We already have rules for Surprise in and out of combat.  We are never going to drive PCs (or Villains) mad with permanent terror, unless it is part of the plot anyway.  We could probably replace the whole 4 pages with 3 short paragraph:

If something unusual or unexpected happens, consider having the NPCs react in a way that you had not previously considered.  This might include the PCs doing particularly well, or particularly badly, or a combination of factors that you just hadn't anticipated. 

Outcomes might include one or more characters/NPCs missing part or all of their turn, one or more characters/NPCs gaining a small bonus (+1 or +2) or something similar.  It could even be something not directly combat related, like an NPC running away, switching sides or acting out of character, for instance pushing and haymakering all their attacks.  Pay particular attention to Psychological Limitations when determining how an individual reacts.

If you are stuck for inspiration, roll 3d6, then decide what to do.  The roll is more of a meditation than an actual guide, but has the advantage that it makes the players think you are not just making it up as you go along.

1 hour ago, Jagged said:

I am genuinely surprised to read you say that (is that a thing?). I bet if you asked Matt he could remember a few times he had gloriously successful PRE attacks.

 

I think we all agree with your assertion that they don't work when taken as a power but I don't agree with your analysis that we voluntarily nerf them. The way I remember them from our games, they got used when circumstances allowed the player to effectively double their attack due to bonus dice.  Isn't that "Rules as Written" ?

 

I don't want to take away the magic, but I can't remember ever having a villain pull a PRE attack on the Heroes, and that is not just when I'm GMing - you don't do that either.  That is because we are nerfing PRE attacks because we recognise that we would not want to deal with the consequences of Super Heroes involuntarily running away.  It would shatter our image of our characters.

Equally I think most of the PRE Attacks that the Heroes pull were prompted by the GM, either you or me.  Taking the magic away again, but if you get over about 6 dice the results are pretty consistent and you can more or less pre-determine the result by how many bonus dice you allow.  When the players have suggested them it is usually because something unusual just happened and they got in before the GM suggested it anyway.

I mean, the roll kind of was the magic to an extent, but like all magic it hid what was going on behind the scenes: the players were getting rewarded because they done good.

No, fine: you've convinced me.  Leave PRE Attacks in and we can game them so it doesn't seem too obvious that we are storytelling.  Poof!  The magic is back.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

First off, cite me the 6e rule on AP limits.  Steve commented at least once in 6e development that the system is not designed around AP limits.

 

I think it is page 35 of the first book and they are called guidelines not limits, but this is Hero.  5 points in one thing is supposed to be roughly as useful as 5 points in another thing.  I think I've demonstrated that PRE bucks that trend by a serious margin.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Now, let's move to your yardstick.  If 60 AP is the measure, why am I expecting 24 PD and ED?  60 AP will buy +50 PD, 20 of which is resistant.  30-50 STUN and 20-25 CON are both way less than 60 AP.  Expected SPD should be 8.

Page 35 again?

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Blast does  not face an automatic reduction for repeated uses, or for being in combat to begin with.

 

...and a nice big PRE attack only needs to go off once.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

To your detailed analysis, you're assuming a 20 PRE.  A 20 EGO versus a 60 AP mental power should consistently be subjected to a +20 level of effect.  A +10 level of effect will face penalties to the breakout roll, and +0 will face even more penalties.  A PRE attack will not cause me to attack my teammates, but Mental Illusions at +20 will cause me to see friends as enemies, and vice versa.  I can use Mental Illusions repeatedly in combat, but I cannot use PRE attacks multiple times without reducing effectiveness.  I can use mental powers from a concealed position 100 meters away - how does one use a PRE attack inconspicuously?

 

I made it pretty clear they were typical values for my game.  Also page 35 again, and the sample superhero characters in the second book.  

Also I can pretty much negate most mental powers with 3 levels in EGO rolls.

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sean are you really allowing 60 PRE in your game? Cause that files under “just because it’s legal means the GM has to allow it.”

I know it was a long post, but it started with:

3 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

OK, here is a detailed note of why I don’t like PRE Attacks, and it is pretty much all down to game balance and effectiveness.  I also don’t like the fact that it is a way for the GM to force the characters to act in a way that is not heroic.  I don’t particularly care if players use it against NPCs, but it is massively aggravating if an encounter that took a couple of hours to prepare is over before the first PS12 because of a lucky roll.  In any event, my players don’t build characters to take advantage of the PRE Attack rules, at least not by buying PRE at AP limits.  I suspect they know how I’d feel about that.

Anyway, this is not some esoteric loophole, this is a core rule that has been here since the start and clearly anticipates PRE Attacks that do hit PRE+30 or more.  It is all well and good saying that I shouldn't use it - and I've been pretty clear that I don't, and for good reason, but is anyone using it?  If not, what the hell is it doing taking up space in an already huge rule book?

Hero combat takes long enough as it is.  We don't need another free attack that everyone might as well pop off at the start of combat.  Look, if everyone has 20 PRE then they get a 4d6 PRE attack, which is 14 points, average.  They are going to need at least another 2 dice of bonuses to get to PRE level on a similar opponent, and then all they get is to go before the opponent which I think is of limited utility anyway, in most cases, and that is assuming all the enemies aren't doing defensive PRE attacks to cancel out even that minor advantage.  You'd need 5 bonus dice to get a half phase hesitation and, if the enemy are doing the same all you've done is waste the first five minutes of the session.

You'd need 12 dice, that is 8 bonus dice to get PRE +20 and that is pretty much never happening unless you are clearly so much better than the enemy that you have to wonder why the fight is in the scenario to start with.

I'm trying to come up with reasoned arguments and, not having a go at you, Ninja Bear, but I'm not getting reasoned responses, I'm getting sentiment.  What need do PRE attacks actually fulfil?  What makes them a useful game mechanic instead of either a waste of time and energy or a completely overpowered monstrosity.

No one seems to be using the damn things as they are written, we all voluntarily nerf them because we know instinctively that not doing so is a short road to madness.

I simply do not see the point.

They are a rule (that takes 4 pages) that, at best, fills a niche, and even then it is a niche in a corner in a room that is rarely used.  I can think of many better uses for those four pages, not the least of which is making the book thinner.

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sean as a volunteer firefighter I have ran into burning buildings. Also I had to make a psy lim check to climb a 3 story ladder cause I hate heights. And get me in a haunted cavern (house) and i’ll Run like a bat outta Hell. So yeah I see PRE as being useful. As useful as some of the other characteristics. Same courtesy disclaimers apply as normal.

I'm just not sure that people who are naturally likeable are also naturally brave or naturally terrifying, but PRE does all of those things.  I think that we can be situational brave when we are dealing with things we are expecting or trained for and I think your examples demonstrate that perfectly.

You are a volunteer firefighter and have run into burning buildings, but I assume that is because you have the training and expectation that you are going to do that, and the support of others in your worthy endeavour.  In a RPG I'm not going to make the heroes subject to a PRE attack by a burning building to go in and save someone, because what I don't want is to describe in dramatic detail how they hesitate outside until the screams stop.

You have a Psy Lim about Heights but that has nothing to do with PRE as such.  Having a high PRE won't help you there, or it would not in Hero.  If the mechanic was that you could voluntarily accept situational PRE attacks when confronted with heights, I'd be fine with that, because you have decided in advance that your character will react a bit randomly in that situation.

Finally the Haunted House: if that were a situational PRE Attack then either everyone would run out, or your PRE was low.  PRE Attacks affect everyone equally.  How they react is then determined by their own PRE.  I don't get the impression you would be built with a low PRE, given that you run into burning buildings.  I do think PRE Attacks lack nuance and elegance.

If I have a 60 INT or EGO, STR, CON, or a 30 DEX, it might be unusual, but it isn't going to break anything.  If I have a 60 PRE, however...

I'm not against a well thought out system for determining how characters in the game should react to certain situations, but I don't think this is is.

9 hours ago, Lucius said:

Sure there are. you just have to build the powers right and of course, it may cost a lot of points. And if you're frequently using PRE to stop fights before they start, you must have spent a LOT of points on PRE anyway.

 

And I don't necessarily see anything wrong with stopping fights before they start, at least some of the time.

OK, here is a detailed note of why I don’t like PRE Attacks, and it is pretty much all down to game balance and effectiveness.  I also don’t like the fact that it is a way for the GM to force the characters to act in a way that is not heroic.  I don’t particularly care if players use it against NPCs, but it is massively aggravating if an encounter that took a couple of hours to prepare is over before the first PS12 because of a lucky roll.  In any event, my players don’t build characters to take advantage of the PRE Attack rules, at least not by buying PRE at AP limits.  I suspect they know how I’d feel about that.

My yardstick of combat effectiveness is the Blast.  If a power is significantly better than a Blast in combat (unless it is only in highly specialised and unusual circumstances) then it is overpowered to my way of thinking.

In a typical superheroes game, the way we play it, you might expect a 12d6 Blast costing 60 points which costs 6 END to use and you need to succeed in a roll to hit before you can cause any effect on the target.

Blast is ranged and is subject to range modifiers, affects a single target, works against normal defences and costs END.  It takes a half phase action to perform and ends your phase when you use it.  The only way to increase the damage output is if you either have skill levels, the use of which is a trade off with OCV and/or DCV or if you Haymaker (which costs you an extra segment and combat penalties) or Push (which costs a lot of END or have ranged Martial Arts.  The latter would probably fall foul of damage caps so I’m going to ignore that one.  An opponent can abort to a defensive manoeuvre to try and avoid a Blast.

In our games you can expect most characters will have normal Defences in the region of 24ED&ED and typically hit on an 11 or 12.  They might have 30 to 50 Stun and 20 to 25 CON.

This means that they can expect an average of 18 Stun and 0 Body through Defences, causing around 10m of KB and not being enough to Stun most characters.  The hit rate is between 62 and 75% and it usually takes 2 to 5 (but far more often 3 or 4) hits on target to take down an opponent, depending on tactics and other considerations.

If you Push and Haymaker, you can do 18d6, which is 63 stun and 18 Body, or 39 Stun and 0 Body through Defences with 22m of KB, on average.  That is enough to Stun almost any opponent and KO just under half of opponents, but leaves you at a significant temporary disadvantage and the attack still has to hit.  In a one on one fight, a Pushed attack that you Haymaker could end it in one hit, but it may not, and if it does not, then you are in some trouble.  Also combats are rarely one on one, more usually team on team of mega villain on team.

OK.  PRE attacks.  For 50 points you can have PRE 60, which is cheaper than a 12d6 Blast.  I could have gone for 70 PRE of the same price but, that is the same AP, so we will use that.

PRE 60 gets you 12d6 PRE Attack.  It costs no END.

PRE Attacks affect everyone they are intended for so long as the intended target can hear and/or see the PRE Attack.  There are no range modifiers and the power is effectively a large selective AoE.  The attack automatically hits all the intended targets.  There are no defensive manoeuvres you can abort to, to avoid a PRE attack and cover and concealment generally do not help.  You can Haymaker a PRE Attack.  Requires the GM to agree but what doesn’t: it is allowed on the face of it.  The effect is immediate, does not allow a Breakout Roll (although the GM can optionally allow an EGO roll to partially reduce the effects, which, frankly, is the sort of weak rule there is just too much of), lasts significantly longer than most combats at higher levels of effect and takes no time and does not end your phase.  This also means that you can make a PRE Attack out of your normal phase, before anyone else acts, no matter how much faster than you they are.

Most of our PCs will have a PRE of 15 to 20. 

A PRE Attack with 60 PRE gets you 12d6, but there are usually situational modifiers.  These can be positive or negative but let us assume that the attack is being used sensibly.

Many Villains will have a reputation.  Even a Negative Complication (Maims Opponents Defeated in Combat, say) can add to your PRE Attack.  Say we get a couple of dice from that.  Then there is violent actions.  If someone has spent 50 points on PRE, they are probably going to use it in a tactically astute way, so maybe another couple of dice there.  Then there is appropriate situation.  Certainly if the villains are attacking they might get some of that.  In Combat loses you a die.  I think a well prepared PRE Attack will get you 2 to 4 extra dice, without being unreasonably generous, lets say 3 on average.  Haymaker gets you 4 more,19 dice of effect, or an average result of 66 to 67 points of effect.  Even without the Haymaker, it is 15 dice - on average 52 or 53 points of effect.

Against a Hero with 20 PRE, that is over PRE + 30 Effect. 

PRE +30

If the total on the Presence Attack dice at least equals the target’s PRE +30, the target is cowed.

He may surrender, run away, or faint. He is at 0 DCV, and will nearly always follow commands.

Against a Hero with 15 PRE, you only need a slightly lucky roll to get PRE +40 (or against pretty much anyone if you allow Haymaker).

PRE +40

At the GM’s option, if the total on the Presence Attack dice at least equals the target’s PRE +40, the target experiences the same combat effects as a PRE +30 attack, but the effects on his mind and/or personality are much more severe: mind-blasting horror; sanity-wrenching revelations; awe so strong it inspires fanatical devotion; fear so intense it breaks even the most hardened man.

The effects last at least an hour, at that level, and may affect the character for the rest of his life, according to the rules.  Cthulu generally is not that harsh to players, and they go in expecting to come out mad.

The rules do allow that a target might make an EGO roll to mitigate some of the effects, but it is not clearly explained how that works and at the EGO +30 level, any EGO Roll would be at -3 (-5 at EGO +40).  Again, assuming PCs to have 15 to 20 EGO, that is a roll of 12- or 13-.  With the penalties, more than half the targets will fail the EGO Roll on average, so even if you don’t melt the brains of every PC, you have crippled the team as a fighting unit with one no-consequence attack.

For another comparison, try building something like a PRE Attack using Mind Control and see how far you get.

Now if you think that is all fair and balanced, I have a bridge I want to sell you.  If any other power or ability were as powerful as this then either everyone would have it or everyone would have substantially more defences against it, but there seems to be an unspoken agreement we will autonerf it, and ignore the horror it could bring because, well, because of reasons.  Probably.  Oh, look – a distraction!

39 minutes ago, Jagged said:

Not sure I agree with that. Batman seems built around the idea. Ignoring mundane attacks from mooks (baseball bat to the head) is a repeating image for Superman.

 

Plus remember I had a character with a little more PRE when in costume? That idea was inspired by stuff taken directly from the Spiderman vs Wolverine comic #1*  I loved that and felt it really spoke about who the character was

 

Yes, we only ever used PRE Attacks spontaneously when the situation suggested. Is that a house-rule? Not sure, page 80 (or was it 82) always had the minus dice for inappropriate situations, second attempts etc. So I am sure we were using as intended. 

 

 

 

* Set in pre-unification Eastern block Germany. Excellent story if you can find it, although obviously dated by world history.

Batman is terrifying, but still gets attacked by thugs on a regular basis.  The fact that Superman bounces bullets off his chest does not stop people shooting him with them, and they are probably the two greatest examples of PRE and Reputation amongst the Heroes of DC.  Similarly, Hydra never surrender when Captain America shows up.  They might say 'Oh no, it is Captain America', but they still fight him.

Getting an opponent to hesitate or gaining a minor bonus for your first attack, that is fine and IIRC, your character maxed out at about 30 PRE.  The problem is though that PRE Attacks are a lot nastier than that and can be absolutely monstrous while well within most campaign guidelines.  I don't like using them against PCs and you and the others only use them when it seems right, because you are naturally fair and decent people.

If you actually read the rules though, and apply them as intended (and by 'intended' I just mean 'allowed'), well, see below...

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sean here’s the thing though about PRE attacks, if the players like to use them, then it’s fair game to be used against them. I’ve played 40K in the day and they have a Fear/Terror mechanic. Now before you can say “but it’s a war game”, my point will be that it’s a given mechanic of the game-so if you want to play the game, you accept it. Savage Worlds also has a similar mechic though I can’t remember the name. You do make a case for using it sparingly though. Now I’m not the biggest connisour of comics but PRE does help explain why the Heroes run in while everyone else runs away.

...no more than you'd need PRE to explain why firefighters run into a burning building when everyone else runs out.  It is what they do, and what they are equipped to do.

Also, because it is there, sometimes the Heroes run away too.

15 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

If that's how you habitually use PREsence attacks, no wonder your players don't like them.

 

If their only exposure to Martial Arts were guys who outclass their Combat Values by 4 or 5, and stun with every hit, they wouldn't like Martial Arts either.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If every time I put a palindromedary in a tagline I hit you over the head with it, you probably wouldn't like palindromedaries either

 

 

Lucius, it is not how I habitually use PRE attacks as I suspect you can deduce, but it is one of the consequences of PRE attacks.  One of the expected consequences, right there in the rules.  The fainting, not the reek of ammonia.

Another is that characters have to spend more on PRE than they probably would otherwise to make sure it does not happen, not because that is how the character is envisaged, but because PRE is a defence to PRE atatcks.  Just because none of the PCs have Flash Defence it does not make it unfair or inappropriate to occasionally chuck in a villain with a Flash Attack but, in my experience, players are much more sanguine about their players being blinded for a couple of segments than they are about them running away from a fight when they did not want to, because they can understand their character getting pepper sprayed, they can't understand their character acting in a cowardly manner.  It can damage their relationship with their character.

That means it is a mechanic that I don't like to use as a GM in case it works too well.  Speaking of the mechanics of PRE Attacks, they are awful and there is really no downside to using them.  By unspoken agreement in our group players don't use PRE attacks unless something spectacular has just happened, like KOing the strongest villain in a couple of phases and in that situation I'd probably just role play the rest of the villains making a break for it anyway, no mechanic needed.  

Moreover they don't really represent anything we see in comics or movies or any other source material.  Goons rarely surrender.  Doesn't make for a fun scene if it is just AmazoWoman rolling up, issuing threats and everyone moving on to the next scene.  There are not any other powers in Hero that can stop a fight before it has even started.  To that extent, if nothing else, it is completely unbalanced and shouldn't be there.

1 minute ago, Lucius said:

 

I can't speak to your experience, but I haven't seen major pushback against using PRE attaks.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary hasn't even seen captain pushback

Drop one on the players at some point that is big enough to make them faint with fear and see how they feel about it.  Describe in detail how they come back to their senses some time later in chains and urine soaked underwear.  It's all fun and games when it is happening to someone else.

15 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

Adelaide isn't dangerous; it might bore you to death but other than that you're fine.

Everyone thinks that until something bites you.

I'm with you about standard enhanced senses.

11 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The PARANOIA GM in my says that sounds like the most wonderful mistake a player could put on their character sheet. 

Ah, Paranoia <sigh>

How about not bothering with the Desolidification and using Possession with Mind Transfer instead?  Build in a Side Effect (that causes the rapid aging) and they you don't need to bother about your own body.  The Shadow may have lost that long ago, or may have it locked up somewhere, but there is no real need for it to exist any more.  I mean, I almost certainly would not allow a PC to have this power, but for a NPC, why not?

I'm assuming here that Mind Transfer version does not have the limitations that normal Possession does, or how you would administer that if it did; which body no longer has recoveries?  Do you die if your first body dies or the last one you possessed or any of them?

I also do not really understand why it is a -1 limitation.  It sounds better than the base power, really, and even if it does have those limitations still in place, it is probably as good.

I hate and loathe the use of desolidification as suggested in the book.  Say the possessed body is very tough and falls off a building.  The desolid body inside either has to stop, which may well kill it, or keep going and lose contact with the possessed body, pass deep into the earth and possibly suffocate.  It makes no sense.  Ditto poison gas, vacuum, water, anything like that.  It does not give the desolid possessing body the abilities of the possessed body and you'd need to be invisible too or it would be obvious you were inside there unless you were exactly the same size (and even then it stretches credulity).

My preferred option in this sort of scenario is to use Mental Transform (to willing lackey) coupled with Clairsentience so you can see what the host body sees and Mind Link so you can hear what it hears and tell it what to do.  If you want your original body to vanish, EDM to 'The Mind Plane' and make the Clairsentience and Mind Link extradimensional.  That all seems far cleaner to me and does not require any weird rule interpretations and special cases.

4 hours ago, dmjalund said:

Then it should be rephrased “costs END but only to activate” or just “costs END to activate” because putting the only first implies it normally costs END

[/PEDANT]

We could rephrase it 'Cost END but only costs END to activate', then drop 'Costs END but' as that would be obvious from context.

+10 Character can perceive dangers to anyone in his general area (such as the city he’s in)

+15 Character can perceive dangers to anyone in any area (see text) 

The text says that 'planetary' is a good upper limit.

14 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

This once again brings us around to the OP: Where is the line between danger sense and just a regular (for a  given value of regular in a super hero universe) sense?

Danger Sense can work even if the danger would not be detectable by the character's normal senses and at anything up to planetary area.  It is effectively N-Ray and without range modifiers.  You COULD buy other senses that did that, but good luck picking the bones out of that soup; and you don't have to, because Danger Sense.

Mind you if a PC came to me with a build that included a planetary level out of combat Danger Sense they would never be seen or heard from again, and quite rightly too.  Well, that or it would just be me bombarding them with constant reports about Avi in Mumbai who is about to cross the road and so is in grave danger, and Kevin in Adelaide who is, well, in Australia and so is in grave danger.

1 hour ago, mallet said:

 

I would disagree with that statement. Sure, Spiderman is the only one that has it "defined" as Danger Sense and a physical reaction (hairs on his arm/neck stand up, those "Waves" around his head to locate and let the reader know he is using that power, etc...) but tons of other could characters have it, maybe just not at the power level, always works, level that Spidy has. Just because they are "Weaker" at it doesn't mean they wouldn't have the ability on their "Character sheet". 

 

For example, how many times has The Punisher been about to open a door, then at the last moment realized it was a trap so he dives out of the way as bullets rip through the door? Or the same with Wolverine or numerous other characters. It doesn't mean that these characters don't get surprised at times (meta reason: because they "failed" their roll) just that sometime their Danger Sense works for them. 

 

Or like Indiana Jones going through the temple and suddenly grabbing one of his team members and stopping them from triggering a trap, then pointing out to them to watch where they step or stay out of the sunlight. That could all be examples of Danger Sense, because there are other times he walks though sunlight without stopping or across floors without checking to see if their are traps. He just "knows" when there is danger. 

 

All of those are possible examples of a Danger Sense ability in action. 

I acknowledge the point, but to me that is more 'Danger Recognition' - it is not a sense (as Hero defines it) beyond the normal senses that the character has filtered through their experience (as defined by their Skills).  It is the equivalent of the old DnD "I listen at the door" - if you hear something unusual or unexpected you take more precautions.  If it was not for Spiderman we would just be using Perception Rolls and not thinking twice about it.

Q1.  We play a game on Monday nights over Discord.  There are six of us and we usually notice pretty quickly if someone drops and we have not heard from them for a couple of minutes.  You don't get any information about the person on the other end of the line other than what they say or "hear".  I'd treat it like a landline conversation where the other party has hit the mute button, probably.  OTOH, you can only establish links with minds and, arguably, someone who is dead does not have one any more.  I think it is probably up to you to make a judgement call, but if it was me, if it was a one to one link you would know that it had dropped as if they had hung up, but not why.  If it was a multi-person link, you would have to make occasional INT rolls to realise that someone was no longer participating, but if you specifically spoke to that one person (as opposed to the group) it would be obvious they were not there any more, but, again you would not know why.  The rule is Link A character can voluntarily leave a Mind Link as a Zero Phase Action (just like deactivating any power).  When you die, your powers deactivate.
 

Q2. Mind Link is a Party Line but you can speak to a other single individual without anyone else hearing with an EGO roll requiring a half phase action.  While you are doing this you will be on mute to the rest, so they may notice you have dropped as above.  When you are speaking one to one I'd rule you can only hear one to one too.  If the other party does not want a one to one conversation they can decline it, in which case you drop from the party line until you stop trying to connect one to one.

Q3. Being point-to-point all the time sounds less useful than being party all the time so I would say it was a -0 limitation.  You would need to make an EGO roll to speak to (and hear) the group with this version.  Depending on how you read the rules you COULD set up multiple single person Mind Links - normally you can run multiple versions of  a constant power at the same time.  The rules do say A character can usually only maintain a Mind Link with one person at a time (even if he can establish the Link with anyone in a group). He can double the number of minds for every +5 points but I take that to mean that they can only maintain a link with a single mind per Mind Link in operation (without an adder) not that they can not establish multiple simultaneous mind links.  There is no adder for the number of Mind Links you can run simultaneously 

Hmm.  That helps.   Also Torg <sigh>

There are some genres in which guns are largely useless against central characters.  The Matrix has been mentioned, but you could also bring up Equilibrium or even Star Wars - Jedi rarely have to worry about blaster bolts.

Still, there is more than one way to remove the epidermis of a feline.

I would be disinclined to cap OCV for firearms per se but might cap OCV and DCV built without campaign Talents for everyone.

I might do is make DCV against firearms pretty cheap.  Introduce a Talent 'Bullet Dodge' that costs 2 points and gives you +1 DCV vs firearms (it is just built as 1 point of DCV, non-persistent and only vs firearms) but as it is a talent they get a bit of a cost break from rounding and it sounds like a bargain.

Don't allow +1 OCV with a single attack levels.

Introduce a Talent 'Gun Trance' that is built as:

+1 OCV (5 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only with Firearms; -1), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Must make roll every phase to maintain and each +1 requires extra segment; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Lose 1 charge per extra segment; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Requires A Roll (12- roll; -1/4)

This costs 1 point BUT to use it you have to take an extra segment, lose a charge (i.e fire an additional bullet) and make a 12- roll.

If you make the roll you get +1 OCV.  You can do the same next phase, only this time it is a 12- less roll, takes 2 extra segments, 2 extra charges and gives you +2 OCV.  Third phase is 3 extra segments, 3 extra bullets and +3 to hit.  If you ever fail the 12- roll, you have to start again.

I'm sure you can refine the idea, but it sounds about what you want.  You shoot lots and get more accurate.

4 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

RE: useless complications due to GM's game plans, if the GM doesn't want to forbid those up front, I'd say that he/she should say something after whisking the heroes off-world, like "Okay, over the next few sessions you'll meet various NPCs and make a few enemies along the way.  Those of you with DNPCs left behind, I'll want you to find an NPC you like and we'll replace your existing DNPC with that one, at least until you get back to Earth.  Those with Hunteds, you can either pick one of the ones you meet, or I can create an arch-nemesis for you.  Or you can simply replace the Complication with something else.  Your call."

 

IMO, simply ignoring useless complications is a good way for savvy players to get points for free.  ("Hey, [GM] never does anything with Hunteds, so I should just max out the points there.  Better that, than taking a Vulnerability or Susceptibility.")

OK. Mega Man, you have been away from your wife for nearly a fortnight,  You are now in love with Velatrix the Space Fox.  Carry on.

What we should probably do, in practice, is have a certain number of Complication points that directly relate to the character and how the character is played, like Susceptibility, Vulnerability, (most) Psychological and Physical Complications, Accidental Change, Unluck and Dependence - stuff they take with them where ever they go, and leave the DNPCs, Hunteds, Reputations and Rivalries for the GM to assign (perhaps at your suggestion) as they come up in the game you are actually playing.

You can have family in your background write-up, but it should be up to the GM whether they actually form part of the story.

2 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

 

Charisma was part of D&D from the beginning. And the wargames that the first role playing games evolved from had morale mechanics.

 

This is neither something unique to Hero, nor a Hero innovation. We're talking about a kind of mechanic that not only predates Hero System, it PREDATES ROLE PLAYING GAMES.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

and a palindromedary providing morale support

Good point, well made and maybe that is where they got the idea, but morale rules are for armies and units.  Sure, individuals have morale but that is why Role Playing developed, so we didn't have a mechanical system for determining what actions characters took next.  Maybe PCs should run away from the Terrifying Terror from Tulsa, and the players should probably be praised for deciding that a strategic retreat is in order to, you know, change underwear and that, but in my experience they don't like being told they have to.

4 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

There's something somewhere in one of the books... it might be on that same page, written in invisible ink, but I'm sure I've seen it elsewhere... something about GM permission?

Do not get me started, Chris...

9 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK Let's strip it down.  If we were going to build Spider-Man's Danger Sense from scratch, using Hero (without the danger sense power) what would it be?

That is a very Hero question.  What it does, in effect, is put you In Combat when you would not otherwise be. 

Effect 1: Full DCV even if Surprised.  You could actually build that as Penalty Skill Levels against the Surprised Condition.  Surprised is 1/2 DCV, so even if you had 10DCV, it would only cost you 10 points (2 points a level x5) to avoid the penalty for being surprised.  I'd probably allow that against Surprised Manouevres too.

Effect 2: You can react even if out of combat, so you can abort to an action.  Hmm.  That is harder.  You either are in combat or you are not.  If you are, you can take combat actions, if you are not then you can not.  There is nothing I can think of that does this other than a Sense of some sort, which allows you to detect when you need to enter combat.  That or EDM to travel back into the past a few seconds after you get into danger so you can do something different.  Hmm...no.  Unless your GM allows you to build combat manouevres with Triggers, this one is hard.

Effect 3: You can launch a full OCV attack if you make a lucky roll.  This is a silly Gimme IMO: you either detect you need to be in Combat, so you are, and you can launch attacks, or you don't so you can't.  Again, though, a Triggered attack might do the trick here.

I'm not sure it is worth the cost of Triggered powers.  I might use the PSLs though.

41 minutes ago, TranquiloUno said:

It's nit-picking but Daredevil is not, to my mind, the canonical example of Danger Sense. Spiderman is.

 

...and therein lies the problem with trying to build something that emulates something you see in the comics.  Every different writer will have a slightly different take and on one will bother to explain how it is actually supposed to work.  Is Spiderman detecting Dangeron Particles?  Hmm?  Only there ain't no such thing.

If you are going to build it in Hero then you need to have a clear idea of what you want it to do, and build that.  It might end up working much like Spider Sense, but you will know the mechanics of it.  Spiderman's DS seems to be more of a pre-cognitive ability.  Maybe.  Sometimes.

The other point worthy of note is that no one else but Spiderman really has Danger Sense.  I mean, lots of characters can sense danger, but that is pretty much always because of enhanced senses or experience in dangerous situations or, you know, magic.  He's not just the canonical example of Danger Sense, he is pretty much the only one.

And another thing...how often do you ambush the PCs and have them start at 1/2 DCV?  Me, not so much.  Maybe the only time I would do it is if a character had Danager Sense so they got their full DCV and utility from the points, which makes being in a team with a character with Danger Sense pretty dangerous.

DS ought to be an example build in Enhanced Senses, not a separate Talent.  Targeting if you roll under half?  What?