keithcurtis

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

I always cut him some slack for the rape.* He honestly thought he was hallucinating. He might have been in some way. We are Sci Fi fantasy readers, ready to accept (at least on a theoretical level) the fantastic. Covenant had no such background. He could not accept that he was doing anything other than dreaming. He certainly was not rational.

Has none of you never committed an act in a dream you would never, ever think of doing in a waking, rational state?

Keith "He whipped himself for it enough for the following chapters and books" Curtis

*That's a hard sentence to type, but I couldn't think of a better way to word it. Keith in no way endorses rape. There.

Re: Star Wars: Canonical Character Write Ups

Episodes IV, V, and VI happened as shown in their original theatrical release.

(Yes, Virgina, there are Ewoks, and Han shot first)

 

Everything else is just made up.

Keith "Because I said so" Curtis

Re: Kilowog

Keep in mind that Kilowog has been retconned several times. In his original appearance he was not a trainer, and in fact was a rather obscure Green Lantern. None of the series regulars had ever heard of him. I can't remember was continuity-shattering event made him into the guy who trained Hall Jordan.

Keith "Liked the Green Lantern Corps series" Curtis

Re: SJG's Traveller Deck Plans - dang wrong scale!

Speaking as a game cartographer and someone who remembers the wonky indoor/outdoor scale of original D&D, I say "use them as is". As long as you are consistent, it doesn't really matter. I frequently use 1 meter hexes in my personal maps for indoor encounters. Most rooms are too small for any kind of tactical movement otherwise. Heck, I frequently would disregard scale altogether, so long as the number of hexes in an area is good fo an interesting battle.

Keith "Especially use them if the maps are cool" Curtis

Re: DM of the Rings

"That-- That was brilliant!"

Keith "hee-hee-hee" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

Now we agree that Power Defence makes little sense (and' date=' presumably about my awesome poetic powers [/quote']

OK, cool, but what that does, in effect, is change every adjustment attack into NND, and, my bigger concern, means that the same points spent on the same power have different utility, depending on what sfx you pick: drain movement could be defined, for instance as 'air hardening' and then it would effect virtually everything except teleport - more utility than the 'frictionless field, but no difference in cost.

 

The other problem is that is not really scaleable except fromt he attack end - you can't build a power that makes the adjustment power LESS effective - just have a SFX that makes it ineffective.

 

The other alternative would be to substitute a different defence, say flash defence for drain INT, which works by distracting the mind with a pretty lightshow. That is converting all attacks into AVLD for free, but at least it has scaleability.

You could combine the two approaches. Have a defensive ability that reduces the effect, and conditions under which it does not work. As for AVLD, anything that affects Power Defense is already essentially AVLD, so I don't see a problem.

 

Then you have other problems: four characters have STR 60: the first is a mutant, the second is a demon, the third is a robot and the fourth is a touch telekinetic. When exposed to a strength drain, you apply the SFX: well we have a number of candidates: muscle relaxant gas, for example. Who would that effect? Probably not the robot or the touch telekinetic: what about the demon? Is the mutant's strength actually derived from having mutated musculature or are subtler forces at work - in fact anything he touches has mass and density momentarily drained, giving the effect of massive strength.

 

I don't know many characters who have their characteristics described in enough detail to make that work.

Most characters in my campaign have origins/powers/abilites/concept whatever well-detailed enough to at least extrapolate. THe above examples suggest a superheroic campaign, which I stated earlier I felt to operate under different assumptions. Champions is much more of a math contest than heroic level campaigns, at least in my personal experience. For Champions, I have less of a beef with Inherent and Power Defense. I still dislike their ubiquitous use, but I can overlook it. After all, Super heroes don't make a lot of rational sense to begin with.

So' date=' I come back to my suggestion that it might be nice to talk about SFX/rules interaction in more detail. At present SFX are just a colour wash: there is no reason they cannot be embedded in the system without limiting people's creative freedom. And, as a bonus, it might all make more sense [/quote']

Agreed.

 

Keith "And that was that" Curtis

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

On the other hand, you are far less likely to be winded at the beggining of an engagement, and the initial ps12 models that well.

 

It also helps protect people from getting completely bushwhacked, which is never any fun.

You ARE far less winded. You are presumably at full STUN/END.

I would like one side or the other to be bushwahacked occasionally. It happens in stories all the time, and a good GM has planned a contingency.

Pushes are only supposed to be used in dire circumstances' date=' to pull of truly heroic stunts. The GM just says "NO" to casual pushes and it all goes away.[/quote']

 

But pushing is much more common in superheroic campaigns (5ERp427 c2). Who's to say the first round of combat is not heroically crucial? It all depends on the plot.

 

It speeds up combat because it favors attackers more than defenders. Ill tell you why:

*snip*

 

Well, yes. You generally speed up combat by emphasizing offense. Emphasizing defense slows it down. The example you gave above is, I felt, rather tailored, but I suppose it demonstrates your point.

My point is that what you just posited for my version of phase 12 happens anyway at the beginning of phase 2 or 3, depending on the average speeds of your campaign. My heroic characters are almost always SPD 4 with a very occasional SPD 3 or 5. Virtually everyone of consequence goes again on ph. 3. So you have the same situation that you had on phase 12, but with my method, everyone is already closer to running out of resources. With the standard method, they all got a little lift.

 

Keith "It has worked fine for us for ten years" Curtis

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

I just don't allow a recovery for the initial post-12. It:

A) Doesn't make sense. Combat just started.

Encourages metagamed pushes.

and

C) speeds up combat by denying everyone a recovery they might otherwise have had.

Keith "As for the problem of haymakers, smart combatants hold that phase 12 action if they can" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

I still see cost as a problem: someone magically shrunk getting bonuses for that can have the shrunkenness and the bonuses taken away. Someone naturally short and getting bonuses for that can't.

 

I'm having difficulty seeing why the second character is not getting a more useful power.

In a game where people are buying powers based on their mechanical usefulness against other powers, this could indeed be a problem. I haven't run into it since I stopped playing Champions and started concentrating on other genres. Where there is less of an "anything goes" attitude, SFX and game rationale for powers becomes far more prominent and important. I would never let anybody buy Drain: DCV level, because it doesn't make sense. Even Drain: Magical Energy is too broad for any useful application.

In a game where magic sfx are common' date=' the character could be losing his DCV bonus every few sessions. That being the case the second power should cost more, and inherent is a way to make it cost more that seems to fit the bill. If you don't like 'inherent' then you can change the label, but it should still, IMO, be a more expensive power.[/quote']

If you buy Inherent, but no one buys the particular type of drain that would affect you, then the second power is more expensive for no reason. Should a player be forced to spend more points for something that is essentially an SFX that has no game utility?

Now I do like the approach you espouse, if I have it aright. Basically that adjustment powers should always be targetted on sfx rather than on powers. This means that it is nice and logical as to when they work and when they don't. I'd be interested to know how you handle power defence.

You probably won't be surprised to know that I am in the camp of those who intensely dislike Power Defense. It is purely a game mechanic that has no in game rationale. (Like the old can't teleport through hardened defenses, so buy Armor Piercing rules). It exists to counter such a wide variety of powers that it is essentially meaningless. My Power Defense (and how does your character refer to this defense?) protects equally against Rattlesnake venom, A disorientation ray (Drain Dex), A frictionless field (Drain Movement) and a Suppress Magic Field (Drain: Magical Powers (+2))?

The usual examples trotted out to show a universal Power Defense involve some sort of cosmic or godlike being who is just "immune from someone trying to make him not like himself." Bleh.

In my Savage Earth game, I have a wide variety of powers simulating a single SFX (altering things to make them more or less like other things). Where possible, I try to have the same defense for every power. In this case, I chose Mental Defense, since the SFX for resisting is willpower, your desire to remain as you are. It made more sense to me than using Power Defense for this application, Mental Defense for that one and so forth. Especially, since the various powers are all applications of the same "meta-power" that simply require different mechanical constructions to model.

 

I do see some problems with the approach though. Although theoretically having a particular sfx for a power has both advantages (aid powers help it) and limtiations (drain powers remove it) that balance, realistically, unless you have an appropriate aider in your Hero group, you will get hit by drains far more often. Given that this is the case, picking a really esoteric sfx is an advantage - you are rarely going to encounter a drain that works against it. Quabnabita powers. Go figure.

I, as a GM, would never allow this type of player chicanery.

 

The problem is not with the idea which, as I have said, I like, it is with the way in which Hero seperates sfx and powers: there could and should be far better integration. This is difficult because Hero is a generic system, but there could, for instance, be an advantage applied if the power uses uncommon sfx as it is less likely to be affected by adjustment powers.

As stated above, I prefer to limit the adjusment power appropriately than to increase the cost of the Defense.

 

Keith "Different approaches" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

In your game you use careful definition to regulate drains' date=' but that is not how the rules are written, and there are any number of 'official' characters with poorly defined adjustment powers. If you could re-write the rules to make more logical sense we may not need inherent. Until they are re-written, I think it has a place.[/quote']

 

There are any number of 'official' characters with poorly defined powers, period.

And the rules are written that way, IMHO. That is where SFX, Common Sense, Dramatic Need and Game Balance are needed. Look at the number of times these phrases are used in the rulebook. There's a reason they are there.

You are free to interpret the rules however you wish, as am I. But to claim that they support one style of play officially is a bit overmuch, methinks.

 

Finally, you might remember that early in this discussion I stated that there are times when Inherent might be valid. I just don't see them too often. So far the Fire Elemental example has come the closest, but even there, it would depend on a lot of campaign specifics.

 

Keith "YMMV" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

Someone in a kung-fu action campaign who wants to build a character who mail ordered Learn-The-Mighty-Fighting-Techniques-Of-The-Dragon-Society-In-Just-Three-Weeks that includes the bonus chapter "cut through your opponents defensive techniques like a hot knife through butter?" And in response, as a justification for DCV Levels Inherent, a couch potato watching infomertials who was conned into ordering "Uber-Secret Techniques of the Ancient One " that renders the Dragon Society's kung-fu miserably weak. Even though I don't care for Inherent much, or that style of character build (I do grittier heroic games), I don't think such a drain is as "out there" as you are making it out to be.

 

Von "a time and a place for everything" D-Man

This requires a drain? Why not some skill levels? Much, much simpler.

Keith "simpleton" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

Not sure I parsed all that correctly, but here is my take:

OPTION 1

The mutation keeps him small and the root cause of the +1DCV is the smallness.

Drain: Mutant Powers drains the level. He grows to normal size.

OPTION 2

The mutation kept him from growing, and the root cause of the +1DCV is the natural smallness.

Drain: Mutant Powers does not drain the level. Neither does he grow to normal size.

The power Drain is Drain: Mutant Powers, not Drain: every implication of mutant powers.

The point I make - and this really is the point you will need to address if you want to convicne me - is that WITHOUT inherent, any power drain makes the character more like the 'human' base template. What f they are not like that 'naturally'?

Alternatively, you could say any poorly worded or defined power drain makes the character more like the 'human' base template. Note that neither of the solutions I posited above requires Inherent. Neither requires the character with the DCV level to buy his powers any differently. The wording of the Drain determines the vulnearbility of the level from being drained.

This goes on to another level, of course, at a pure 'cost' level: if one character effectively CANNOT be drained of their +1 DCV level, and another CAN, should the first character have paid more?

The question is loaded. It's not a matter of a character having a level that cannot be drained, its a matter of defining the Drain properly. In the case of Puck, whose height was magically suppressed (yuck), then Drain: Magic Energy should take the level. If it's merely an effect of being naturally short, then an attacker will have to come up with some rationale (which escapes me) for defining a character that can drain it.

In other words, I'm not going to cause characters with Ice Powers to spend more for their powers simply because every attacker buys Drain: Fire Powers.

Keith "Not trying to convince you, but the conversation doesn't seem to be dying" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

They should? Do they make your back and legs stronger so you can support the extra weight? Most lifting injuries are to the back, not the arms, aren't they?

 

There are limits to how far logic can be taken in the game (and they don't just apply to extra limbs).

 

Logically, Extra Limbs should reduce your cardiovascular fitness since your blood has that much further to travel to cirle the body. You paid for extra limbs, not an extra heart And you should need more food to sustain that greater body mass. A similar, but lesser, issue to that which should arise with Growth.

 

Of course, logically, if a human body could effectively support four arms and they would be advantageous, we should have evolved as a four-armed species.

Wow, there must be half a dozen dead catgirls in here.

Keith "think of the catgirls!" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

I use Inherent on my Ninja Hero character - 1 Level of DCV' date=' inherent, because she is small. I thnk that's the kind of thing Inherent is supposed to cover.[/quote']

 

Who buys Drain: DCV levels?

 

Keith "solution without a problem" Curtis

Re: Kilowog

Kilowog also had an unusually robust physiology. He was difficult to attack with chemical or biological weapons because he was "so simple there's less to mess up."

He also had extremely good gadgeteering skills and was one of the better GL's in terms of fighting skills.

Keith "prefers to refer to Kilowog in the past tense" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

All of this skirts around the fact that Drain: Extra Limbs is a nonsensical idea. Aside from a bizarre magical spell, what could this power possibly be modeling? Besides, a magic spell that drains extra limbs should be able to drain Extra limbs, regardless of whether a creature has them or not.

Coming up with a solution to something which is not a problem is not worth the effort. Drain Extra Limbs would be a better candidate for Transform. This would avoid the problem of the inability to drain limbs that are not "Extra".

The Drain: Fire Powers argument made much more sense.

Keith "Fire Elementals should be bought with SUSC: xd6 from Fire Drains ;)" Curtis

Re: Daily Art Findings

Scorpion Rider.... yes' date=' Dorthery it is as bad@$# as it sounds.[/quote']

wow!

 

Keith "scary" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

Perhaps when you become Pope it can never be taken away while you live.

 

Like inherent.

 

Sean 'back on track' Waters

Touché.

Keith "Power Transfer: Papacy" Curtis

Re: Timing is everything

Here are some simpler solutions to the original problem.

1. Allow Attack and Move.

2. Go through each segment twice. The first time is for the initial half move. The second time is for the second half move. Full phase actions take place in the second half move period, but must be declared in the first.

Neither of these requires mucking with recoveries of drains or such.

Personally, I treat all combat as heavily abstracted as to what occurs when. When I run my online campaign, I log several phases of combat and then re-write them into narrative form for posting. When I do the re-write, I will frequently change the order or duration of events for logical or dramatic sense. In no case will what I change affect the outcome of any hit or damage rolls. Example. Character A fumbles. Character B hits Character A. When I rewrite this, I might state that Character B hits character B in the hand (hit), causing him to drop his sword (fumble). Different order, same outcome. Dramatic narrative from abstracted action.

Keith "but that's me" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

I dunno. Maybe I'm still Pope. I was originally elected without my knowledge to begin with.

Keith "missed the meetings" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

I like the practical examples Keith Curtis gave for resolving resolving apparent conflicts

The world needs more people who think like this.

Keith "I'm Keith Curtis and I approve this message" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

Actually when Dr. Anomoly reached the 100-rep power level (the first to do so) he decided that being a new god he needed a church and Pope. I did the best job sucking up and he made me the Pope of the Anomolous Pantheon. Ironically I now have more rep than him but I kinda like this humongus mitre hat so I still dress-up this way when at the computer.

 

I have no problem with Mr. Curtis remaining the Pope of the NGD. Much more chances for pointless religious strife that way.

I thought you were elected during the coup, er, second election.

Keith "Or a watery tart lobbed a miter cap at you" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

I briefly toyed with the title of Anti-Pope, but then figured it just wasn't worth it. Shortly afterward I ascended, so nyah.

Keith "Bigger than the Beatles" Curtis

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

As usual.

 

I think there is a mathematical limit to all Hero Rules System discussions, they all converge to a discussion of Reductionist HERO.

 

TB

I hereby declare this to be known as Teflon Billy's Law, by virtue of my authority as former NGD Pope.

Keith "Godwin, eat your heart out. You Nazi." Curtis

Re: Missing: Fantasy Hero

It's funny how tastes differ. I think 5ed Fantasy Hero is one of the best 5ed books. The world building stuff is great idea fodder.

Keith "YMMV" Curtis