The Mind Master

Well, one of the things that annoys me the most is when I unleash an unusual attack against a player and he asks me, "How is that bought?" Instead of telling me how his character reacts.

I am considering it as a power for a villain, one that can be instant or can be created and left around concealed. But it's so complicated I'm considering abandoning that idea and just putting in the physical traps and roleplaying those as you suggested. Entangle would sort of work with enough modifiers heaped on it, but it would have to have some modifier so that STR would not affect it. (My thought was an NND entangle, the defense would be being pulled out or being able to grab something outside the trap an pull yourself out. Pretty clunky wording, but that's the essence.) On top of that it would have to have something that caused it to grow stronger the longer you were in it (as you are sinking), and then finally some power that would stop you from breathing after a certain point (I guess another NND attack with Life Support as the defense.) Then, you'd have to add a continuous uncontrolled version to the multipower...blah! I like the power for this character, but it's just too complicated. Maybe some kind of change environment or transform would be easier?

There may be something about this in the rules, but I don't have my book handy and don't recall anything quite like this I want to build a trap for relatively powerful heroes which is basically just a plot of fast-sinking quicksand. The first thing that comes to mind is entangle, but I don't want them to be able to use just sheer STR to break free, since this is a semi-liquid pool and there is no leverage, nothing below to brace your feet on as you sink. I have some ideas, but I'm not totally satisfied with any of them. I'm sure someone else has done this before...or has an immediate thought on how to build this. Ideas?

I have to agree with the reviewer that the UNTIL book could really have used some maps of the bases (HINT! HINT! for future such books) .

A "MUTANT" campaign!! Omigod!! Are you a member of Genocide??? I admit to a lot of homebrew in our campaign, I confess it, I plead guilty as charged. Nay, I revel in it! It is our campaign after all. Still, I don't think the "tone" of my campaign is what's so radically different. It's still superheroes vs supervillains The history is different, but a lot of the results are similar or the same. In the CU, Doctor Destroyer destroyed Detroit. In my campaign, Firewing nearly levelled Houston. Plenty of impetus there for a superhero group to form or UNTIL to work in the USA. I think that it's great if you want to use the CU history as a background, and stick to that history in all particulars. It gives you a nice solidity as a framework. But the longer you play, the more significant things are going to happen in your campaign that will never be reflected in the published CU. And there may well be future supplements which contradict the history of your campaign. And then, "gasp!"...you may look around and find...that you, too, are now in a MUTANT campaign! BWAAA! HA! HA! HA! HAAAAA!!!

I think we agree in practice. I don't quite understand why you think that modifying a supervillain group (such as the Psi-Kin you mentioned) isn't a true deviation from CU but that deciding that Terror, Inc was not destroyed from within IS. But that's neither here nor there. From what you're saying, you do decide to make changes in the official published versions of stuff. I assume you also allow original villains? And of course many, many things change and evolve the longer a campaign in played, as you stated. So inevitably it's going to grow apart from the published CU. That's my point, and that being the case, why couldn't the campaign evolve to bring in any 4th Edition characters that you really like and miss? Why do they have to be eliminated in your campaign if you like them? You'd still be basically set in the CU, if that's how you consider your campaign. The differences would not be any greater than those we have already talked about. Out of curiousity, do you consider ALL the supercharacters published as part of CU as existing in your campaign? If a new villains book is published, are they all automatically considered to exist, even if they are never encountered? I ask, because in my campaign, supercharacters are not automatically assumed to exist unless/until the PC's encounter them. Takofanes, for example, has never put in an appearance, and is not considered to be out there lurking, waiting to attack. If he ever does show up (unlikely, since I HATE the aggravation and extra work of running a villain with a power pool) he will be encountered as a newly discovered threat, not as someone who has already tried and failed to conquer the world.

I understand what you're saying, but you make my point. You use stuff from CU, but it doesn't dictate what's in your campaign. You create your own campaign world, picking and choosing and modifying the stuff that suits you. It is not the "official" CU anymore. And I'd be surprised to find that many GM's do strictly follow the CU. That's what I mean when I say there's no need to "miss" any old character.

All this being said, who really sets their campaigns in the CU anyway? I certainly don't. If there are characters who haven't shown up yet in 5th Ed, and I want to use them, I do. So it's kind of silly to really "miss" any character or group. Just use them in your campaign. Chances are, your PC's aren't part of the official CU anyway, so why bother with the rest of it?

Heh!

Actually, I was defending Clown and that sort of campaign tone. I never used the organization myself, but the Fox of Crime is very similar in tone and goals. I have to admit, I kept his antics somewhat restrained, so the players could laugh and have a good time without feeling overly humiliated. No, the concept of heroes heading out to vacation with their enemies doesn't work for me, but just about anything can "work" with a good GM and players willing to go along. Even a "cartoonish" campaign where the PC's are parodies of super-characters like the Tick could work and be a lot of fun. The Ssanctuary idea would fit in very well there. I'm just talking about my personal reactions to the whole concept of such a "sanctuary".

If the PC's paid for the ship in STAR HERO with their own character points, then I can sort of see this. But it's of no use to include character points spent in a base that is owned by NPC's. What possible relevance does it have on gameplay? A description and layout is much more useful. If a villain wants to poison this Life-Support food supply, for example, would he have to have some sort of life-support drain or supress? Could he steal the food, or burn it up? IMHO, the whole thing is silly. Just state that it has a food supply, and show me where the refrigeration units are where it is stored. And if there are refrigeration units, do they have to be bought as some sort of cold power, bought with a limitation (only to preserve perishable food items)? You see how ridiculous it gets. Yes, you need to know the game mechanics for any weaponry and defenses of a base, also sensor devices like radar or sonar, but not much beyond that needs to be put into game mechanic terms. It doesn't come into play. Maps, however, do.

The whole idea of a resort "Sanctuary" where enemies get together and vacation together is ...uh... not exactly credible. Some diplomatic neutral ground where business can be transacted might be feasible. Ransoms could be negotiated, maybe info bought and sold. But a place where supers go for fun, to rub shoulders with their enemies...just doesn't work. Don't miss the Gweenies or Clown myself, never used them. But they do represent a different campaign tone that is legitimate. My group has spent time after Champions sessions just speculating about fighting Clown, and having a hilarious time imagining the results. Not much of this kind of tone seems to remain in Champions, though Foxbat is still around. But it can be great fun. I have run the Fox of Crime a couple of times with great results. A fun, change of pace adventure is sometimes called for. I also used the Hunstman of the Black Forest from European Enemies with great success. The players still talk about him.

Ghost, those are the kind of maps I'm talking about...maps of the most colorful bases of whatever agency the sourcebook is detailing. And I've seen a number of good ones in the past. I'm not talking about a map of an office building full of cubicles, if that's all it is. Yeah, I could do that myself or find one to download. I'm talking about things like the Undersea Base in UNTIL, which would be a cool spot for a scenario to take place...or the Gateway space station. The maps themselves suggest plot hooks. I find that players enjoy an element of exploring in the scenario, if it's a cool place. A running battle in a villain base whee you never know what you're going to find behind the next door is a heck of a lot of fun. Out of curiousity, why do you say that Hero hasn't had much success with them in the past? Question for those who have the books...do the new Viper and Coil sourcebooks provide maps of any of the agency bases? As for art, I think the Hero books have a good balance. I like an attractive layout, but I don't buy the books for the pictures, I buy them to give me some help in creating adventures for my players. And to me, the (interesting) maps are some of the most helpful things.

Okay, just wanted to see if anyone else was as disappointed as I was that the new UNTIL book did not feature any maps of some of the more colorful bases. It would have been really great, for example, to have maps of the Gateway satellite and the undersea base. As a GM, I find base maps to be one of the most useful tools to help set up a scenario. That's the kind of thing I can't do easily on my own. The write-ups of bases aren't very useful by themselves. I don't really care what the point totals are for a location. (And sometimes they get a bit ridiculous. For example, spending points on Life Support to represent that a base has food stocks on hand. Why not just state that there are food supplies? What's next? Buying doors as entangle barriers usable by others? Come on.) A map, OTOH, complete with a key to explain what is in each room, is an immense help in gameplay. Am I the only one who feels that this is a glaring omission in the book? I could have done without the history of the UN and the stuff on international law. If ever needed for a game, enough background info could easily be looked up on the internet. I buy these books mainly for practical material to help me in the actual gameplay. I don't mean this to sound like a rant. I just wanted to make my opinion heard when future projects are being considered. And I wonder if there are others who feel like I do. This is a kind of survey to see what others like to see in sourcebooks of this type.

This sounds a lot more interesting than the dull IHA moniker. I love your names and concepts. It keeps a nice theme to the group and makes it memorable to the players instead of just some meaninless anacronym. It also gets rid of the original Genocide's embarassing rip-off of the X-Men Hellfire Club with the White King and White Queen, etc.

Re: Demonhanes This is something that you would expect to see in a Demon sourcebook, but I also expected to see some maps in the ne UNTIL sourcebook, so nothing should be taken for granted. A a GM using DEMON, the things that are really, really useful are the MAPS of bases and keyed descriptions of the rooms. At least one colorful base example would seem to be a must for such a book. This is the kind of thing that it would take me forever to write up on my own, and the type of GM help that I value the most. I'm thinking of starting a separate thread to ask if others feel the same way, because I was SO disappointed not to find anything like this in the new UNTIL book. There were opportunities with the undersea base and the Gateway space station that would have been trememndously useful. But just simple write-ups that cost out the points are of little value. I want to see the maps and know what's in the rooms that I can use to create interesting encouters in my games. Such a map of some DEMON base would be a great tool.