atlascott

Re: HERO system observations and beefs "he first option I don't think will be the cure all that its proponents seem think it will be but I don't have any major objections to it. The second option is the one I find unwise and would advise against for the reason I have stated That's about as clearly as I can put it." Then we agree!

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Leave an idea stated and undefended, and you have abandoned an idea you were never serious about in the first place. Defend it, and you are 'shouting it over and over' and diminishing its value. Sometimes, you just can't win.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs And, let me ask you this: even though we all know you dont think any of us should offer any advice as to any of this, because of your oft-cited mantra of 'its their company'--what would YOU have them do? Stay the course? Keep catering to a small and aging group of loyalists, without aggressively going after newer gamers? Offer a 10% discount to anyone who has never roleplayed before, but only on a 600 page rulebook?

Re: HERO system observations and beefs "Yes, but is it worth running a company that is producing products that aren't what you want to do?" Why do you think Steve and the guys dont want to have a profitable business? I cant speak for Steve, but I can tell you that his writing is of high quality and his mastery of the rule is great. I'm sure his decisions about that books to publish and their layout, etc, were carefully decided upon--based in a large part on what he though would sell and make money. Steve does not work this hard to go broke. I'm sure if someone sold him a different approach that made more money, he'd be even happier. THIS A IS A BUSINESS, which also happens to be these guys' passion, lucky for them. I dont see 'more pictures' and 'some all in one genre books' as being any significant departure or revision of the HERO system, just a marketing strategy adjust. How would this destroy the enjoyment of working on the world's best game system?

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Let me ask you something: when you see something or someone you care about not doing well, do you offer suggestions, or do you just sit on your hands? "There are many, many people who are happy with the current approach. " Yes, so many, in fact, that the company has swallowed its pride and addressed the fact that these 'many, many' people are essentially not enough to keep the company afloat in its current iteration. Do you work for WOTC, that you dont see this as a problem that could use some good ideas to get out of? It's their company, why do you care if they do--or dont--take any of these suggestions?

Re: HERO system observations and beefs "Moving into an untried area is a big risk..." Huh? Addressing criticisms of the game by doing what every successful game company does (selling the WOW factor and easing players into a 600 page rule book) is moving into an untried area? You mean the untried area that got HERO popular in the first place vis a vis Champions? DoJ doesn't need apologists or defenders, because they have nothing to apologize for, and no one is attacking them. The market itself is demonstrating that some additional approaches should be considered. No one is taking away anyone's technical, crunchy rule system. No one is advocating a Socialist transfer of ownership of the IP. Of course they may do what they choose. Every man lives or dies by his choices, one way or another. Everyone here agrees that we want HERO to thrive, not stagnate and die.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Thank you MitchellS, thank you, thank you.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Presenting HERO for particular genres is NOT dumbing down the HERO system. The system is a toolkit, MEANT to be used to replicate whatever genre you are playing in. For example, in a self-devised Wild West campaign, you probably arent going to use 3/4 of the Powers in the book. That doesnt make it a dumb version of the HERO system, or an incorrect one--thats what the HERO system is SUPPOSED to be.

Re: HERO Hall of Fame? This is for ALL characters, not just random ones, and not just Champions ones. ALL HERO SYSTEM CHARACTERS!

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Implicit in your post are some suppositions which are unsupported. First, you seem to believe that the only response to anything a company does that the consumer does not care for is to not buy the products. But clearly, everyone here has bought recent HERO products, and enjoys them immensely. You are not catching the purpose of these conversations--to suggest ADDITIONAL approaches which would spread use of the HERO system and thereby enrich DoJ's principals. No one ever said it wasnt their company, or that they had to do any of the things suggested on these boards. Second, for some reasson, you believe that Steve and Darren are correct and everyone else who posts any idea on the industry must be wrong. This is just speculation on your part, and I and others have set out their positions pretty clearly. No one is insulting Steve and Darren and the rest of DoJ--all I have seen are SUGGESTIONS and also PRAISE for them for the fine work thery have done, and in rescuing the IP from oblivion. Suggestions and criticism are not insults. In fact, suggestions and criticisms are the most valuable thing anyone can say to you. See if you can figure out why on your own. Third, how do you know any of the approaches on these boards were actually considered? Why do you consider the very people who buy and support HERO "pests"? No one shuts down a great business because others make suggestions. Some businesses even actively solicit their customers' viewpoints. Companies that provide a good or service without regard to customers' wants/needs have a name: "Bankrupt" aka "Out of Business." I love it when I get to reuse material! That said, you are entitled to your own opinions. I would suggest if these posts rankle you so, just avoid this discussion thread.

Re: HERO Hall of Fame? Dude! 25 guys have read this thread and no one has responded? Doesnt ANYONE have a Hall of Fame nominee?

Re: HERO system observations and beefs And is the plural of gorilla, gorilla? Gorillae?

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Do Swahillian gorilla all smoke cigars? Or just one whose fave game is HERO?

I started this thread to exchange stories about our favorite characters of all time! Two of mine were randomly generated, but this is an forum for ANY characters you played/played with who deserve to go in the HERO Hall of FAME! I have 3 nominees: We were near the end of high school, and a small group of friends agreed to try Champions out. A couple guys had some ideas but two guys didnt. So we tried the Random Character Generator that used to ship with Champions. We ended up with quite good results! Tai Shan, martial artist, whose martial art was Tae Kwon Do, and whose signature move, which we quickly labeled "the 'ol boot to the head," never failed to drop virtually every opponent--except for The MinuteMen Robots sent to collect him and his lady love Victrix (anyone remember her?)--and also, once when he was fighting The Green Dragon. Other than that, with the ol boot to the head, it was always a short fight! The player took this fellow all the way from 250 points to about 325! He ended up being an almost unstoppable HTH force! Another guy 'rolled up' a character named The Ghost. His primary power was his obvious, inaccessible belt, which allowed invisibility, intangibility, and a electrical discharge. He was also a brilliant scientist, and wealthy benefactor to The Defenders of Chicago. He eventually bought up a very useful variable power pool to represent his inventions. This player usually played combat monsters, but this was the first time he really spread his wings and did a GREAT job of playing a versatile character. My last nominee for most beloved HERO system character is Jari a Konel, a 3' tall blue brick with amnesia from another (medieval tech level) dimension, who was a designed character by the Tai Shan player. A weakling in his home world, he was transported here by some strange confluence of magic-gone-wrong and industrial accident. Originally deemed a super villan, The Defenders quickly adopted him, and he became the team's heavy hitter, able to absorb massive damage while dishing out incredible amounts with his 50, and eventually, 80, strength. Not only did he not understand technology, but something about his extra-dimesional origin made technology go haywire! So what about you guys, who goes into your HERO Hall of Fame?

Re: HERO system observations and beefs I was just teasing you, that's why I put the smiley face on there! No offense meant or taken!

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Ive been playing it since 2nd Ed--the boxed set that came with a rules book and a Viper/campaign book. I think it was published in like 1983 or something. I remember buying separate rules books which added stuff like Multifiorm, extra limb, etc. Also had the random character generator in it, which was surprisingly good! Though what how long I have been playing a game has to do with the logic or veracity of my arguments is another matter entirely. You gonna ask me what color my eyes are next? Or maybe my religion? Dude, Im only 4 years older than you, and when you get beyond 30, 4 years aint much...

Re: HERO system observations and beefs "And a big part of marketing is knowing your product and knowing your audience. Not transforming your product to meet what you think are the needs of your audience....I'm just not really seeing evidence that this "problem" we're trying to solve really exists, ergo, I don't see the need for the proposed solution. (Though I agree with the effort to "humanize" HERO books.)" Where the owner of a product tells its loyal customers that it is having a bad economic time because they are not making enough money/selling enough books, there is no more elegant proof of a problem, especially when we seem to agree that the product (HERO System) itself is the best out there. So this is a marketing problem. They know their product, and they know their audience. Their audience is too small. They need to PRESENT their great, super, wonderful rules in a more pleasing and easily accepted package. No one, and certainly not ME, ever suggested CHANGING or TRANFORMING the HERO system. But I dont know wherer you learned about marketing--companies CONSTANTLY change, tweak, and modify their products to MEET THEIR CUSTOMERS DEMANDS/NEEDS. There is a name for companies who offer a product to customers without regard to what the customer wants/needs. You may have heard of it before. It is called "Bankrupt," also known as "Out of Business." Now, if that is the case, what is your quarrel with making it easier to learn and more firiendly for new gamers? You will still have your 600 page rule book, you will still have your uber-genre books, and your equipment and enemy books. If you dont want to buy the all-in-one genre books, then don't. But please do not suggest that HERO just sit on its hands with the market share it has, when it could be doing other things to make more money. Which is the entire point, by the way. If they keep it all crunch, no pretty baubles, 5ER will be the last of the HERO system.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs "I get endless use out of my Star Hero and Fantasy Hero. I found them inspiring. Fantasy Hero alone breathed new life into my Fantasy campaign and spawned to other. Turkanian left me kind of flat, on the other hand. The genre books got a deal of critical acclaim. I just don't see what is so horrible and going to sink DOJ by writing more of them." For a guy who claims you have nothing but ideas, I am amazed that you are 'inspired' by Star Hero and Fantasy Hero. Aren't they just books with more ideas in them? You seem like a very experienced gamer. Those two books strike me as books that should be read by someone who has never read science fiction or watched sci-fi movies. Or someone who has never heard of/played D&D or seen Conan or other sword and scorery movies. It's cool that you like them, and as I said, many people do, I guess. Producing ANY product means you are using resources (time, money, energy) that you MIGHT have used in a different way. If our premise is that the best way to enure the existence of HERO is by making sure its owners get richly rewarded with maximum sales and cash for every product, then, it is simply a matter of maximizing the sales per unit of the products they sell by making the right DECISIONS as to what to produce. In other words, you might make the best soap in the world, but in a desert with no water, you arent going to be selling much. You should have invested in bottled water! It is my position that well-done genre books with stripped down sidekick rules will sell more units than 'how to play in a genre' books. I could be wrong, but for the reasons cited above, I dont think I am--I think it would be a great move.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Ok, but we now HAVE the toolkit. Why would doing things to get the non-tinkerer business affect your desire to use and buy HERO products? End of the day, if 2/3 of people who play RPG's are not tinkerers, then for every one of us lost, HERO gains 2 sales. This is a business, after all, and these guys need a return on their investment. There are far fewer people playing HERO now than 10 years ago, based on my estimation and knowledge of the gaming community. Maybe legions and legions overstates it, but it is the one criticism I hear from everyone who doesnt play it anymore, or hasnt tried it.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Even though we have no market research, we can observe the inudstry ourselves and draw some conclusions. WE know ourselves, and that extent, we know others. If crunchiness is all it takes to get an industry-leading game system, then HERO should be the industry leader, based on its entity-creation rules. FGU's Space Opera would still be widely played and followed. Chivalry & Scorcery would have beat out D&D. But but they haven't. SOMETHING must account for this. Instead, HERO has been criticized as being too complicated or too much work by the LEGIONS AND LEGIONS of RPG'er who play games like Vampire, etc.--the role player, not the rules lawyers or wargamers in RPG'ers shoes. In addition to being HERO fanboys, we are all also RPG consumers--and not just of HERO's products. Look back at your last 10 game purchases. What got you to drop coin on the table? I bought Star Wars d20, because it is a beautiful product, and I looked forward to sharing some of the magic of the movies in the Star Wars universe, and in my own way, add to the Jedi legend. I bought All Flesh Must be Eaten because I am a Zombie Movie nut. I saw it in the books store and I read 2 of the Narrative Chapter introductions, and I was hooked. I wanted to be in that world, fight that fight. I bought Armageddon (also from Eden Studios) because the premise was intriguiging, the narrative was engaging, and the art was thematically and stylistically consistent to build a game world real enought to entice me--I wanted to fight that even bigger fight, and delve into that world's mysteries. Both it and All Flesh have nothing but black and white art, and each book, as I recall, is around 300 pages--rules, content, everything you need to run a complete campaign. I bought 3.5 D&D books bc the group wanted to try 3.5 to see if they fixed what was wrong in 3.0 (didn't, and made alot of things different for no reason other than evidently wanting everyone to spend more $). I bought a pdf supplement from RPGNOW call "Three Arrows for the King" because a PC in the game wanted to make his Bard the consummate Archer. It was well written and a useful game supplement. I have purchased several D&D modules from non-WOTC, because they presented their product with exciting prose and the promise of high adventure and terrible challenged to overcome. I have purchased 5th Ed Hero, Fantasy, Star Hero, Terran Empire, Grimoire I, Alien Wars, Vehicle Sourcebook, Spacer's Toolkit, Herocreator, data packs for Hero creator, 3 copies of Sidekick, and a few others--mainly because I love the HERO system, and I want to support the fine gents who have rescued it from oblivion. But none of the products grabbed me the way the two small books from Eden Studios did--or the way the 3rd Edition did. As I posted before, voluminous, but souless. Review your own purchases over the last year. Did you make the purchases by looking at the product and exlaiming "Wow, 600 pages!" or "Holy smokes, look at all these rules!" or "Wow, powered by d20"! Or did you make the lion's share of purchases because the little boy or girl in you who used to play pirates, army, cowboys and indians, the same part of you that made you go see LOTR in the theaters, AVP (even tho its was terrible), FORCED you to take our your wallet and dream the beautiful dreams of excitement, adventure, and an extraordinary life? Great passion makes for great action--and big purchases. Those who feel that sort of passion for large books for rules are few and far between, and will not sustain HERO forever. We have here the greatest game system ever devised, and we are letting silly things stand in our way. If you dont understand that PASSION motivates people to buy ANYTHING, then turn on the television. How many car commercials show fast driving, or the approval of men and women for the owner of brand X car? Why are action movies so popular? Why is Sex such an effective sales tool, if details, facts and figures were the true motivator behind purchases of any good or service? These rules are sexy, for us tinkerers. HERO's attempts at "how to play in a genre" books have left me cold, but evidently, some people enjoy them. (I dont need to be told that "The term "science fiction" is broad, encompassing many types of stories, characters, and settings" or that "Space travel is a central concept in science fiction.") The actual campaign books that I have seen are not going to do it, because they pre-suppose you are familiar with the HERO system. NO ONE IS GOING TO BUY HERO AFTER READING ONE OF THE GENRE BOOKS--THEY DO NOT HAVE THAT KIND OF 'WOW FACTOR'. USERS OF HERO MIGHT BUY THE GENRE BOOKS. But his is not the way to grow the user base. We are putting the cart before the horse. Sell the genre books, use beautiful, consistent art, and compelling narrative, and build such a fascinating, compelling game world that anyone who picks it up is DYING to play it. THEN you'll sell more books. THEN the kid who was blown away by your Space Opera game will turn to you for Fantasy or Modern when his group goes that way--and all with learning a minimal number of new rules. Or, we can stick with the idea that the crunchiest, best game system will eventually win out. But be warned, Marketing is a real discipline, and after production, is the MOST important part of any business.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs And how do I know that HERO is not overly complex or difficult to understand? From personal experience. When I ran Champions for a large group, I had newbs to gaming in general tell me what they wanted the character to do. I put the character together with them, explaining options, and letting them decide on different design options. For those who didnt have any idea, I pulled out the old 'random hero generator' found, i think, in 3rd edition (it wasnt still in 4th ed, was it?), and we built some pretty decent PC's that way, too. Building characters this way was no harder than making D&D PC's witht hese guys, bc none of them know D&D rules, and there are a ton of complexities to making PC's in that rules system, too (and in d20 in general). Once we started playing, it was basically a breeze. The guys act when their speed and Dex comes up, they have their powers listed plainly on the sheets. They roll to hit, and then for damage/effect. I dont think combat took any longer than in a d20 game. No one got confused about anything. Contrast that with D&D 3rd/and 3.5. My group contains long-time players of AD&D 1st, 2nd Editions. We all had to learn 3rd Ed together. Between the combat rules, feats, changed in spell, everything ran extremely slowly. Then, we upgraded to 3.5, and a bunch of minutiae chaged, slowing us even further. We have even played Star Wars d20. I think the rules are terrible and they don't really fit the genre at all.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs "Just because you can make your own game from the toolkit doesn't mean you have the time, dedication or inspiration to do so. Sometimes you want to just open the wrapper and dive in.... ...specially if it costs $10." Bingo! Let it be a toolkit for tinkerers like us, but a 'ready to roll' game for everyone else.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs "I don't believe the Hero fan-base is large enough to support other company's products. I believe Steve Long said as much in a post on these boards as well. It would seem that the current core fan-base only has so many dollars to spend on Hero product per month, and when spending them on ABC Games' products they might not be spending them on DoJ products." It isnt the rules that sell the game to a new audience, its the WOW factor of the setting. If HERO gets great settings, then more HERO products, licensed or otherwise, are going to sell.

Re: Character growth potential and speed questions My experience with GURPS is, its fine if youve never played HERO. But, once you've played HERO, it is hard to go back to GURPS. GURPS is almost HERO LITE, except with Sidekick out, it really isnt. I find to be a les sensical, through still rules-heavily, system. "...but I will say that balancing combat encounters is easier in D&D than in Hero" I heartily disagree with that. D&D challenge ratings mean nothing, and once characters are of about 10th level, forget it, witht the Feats, spells, multiple attacks. You have to throw ridiculous things at them, and the game becomes all about whther wat you have planned can in any way challenge the PC's.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs Rep to zornwill for that great post! Zornwill said "I think Champions was a funny thing, it was never quite a sports car and never quite a Model T, either. " For me, I was a big comic book kid. My first game was D&D. I nearly flipped when I played V&V (Villains & Vigilantes). But, the system was very limiting. Then, a buddy of mine turned me on to Champions. This was back in the day where evern D&D had artwork that looked amateurish. The art and layout of Champs never bothered me then bc it was in line with what was basically the state of the art at the time. The rules and the genre was the sports car, for me! I agree with all of MitchellS's beef's with buzz's post. Cutting down the verbiosity of the rules is GOOD. Splitting the rules into 2 books is BAD. Doing more to get Sidekick into people's hands is GOOD. People by and large DONT play RPG's because of the complexity and completeness of the rules set. They play whatever rules set comes along with the cool genre book that caught their eye. Take a look at old Call of Cthulhu and current Armageddon/All Flesh Must Be Eaten for brilliant examples of black and white art and great narrative that gives people the 'WOW' factor on a budget, that really envelops the buyer, and that sells in some cases IN SPITE of the rules system (All Flesh and Armageddon--not the best system. If fact, when I ran those, I converted the settings into HERO!!!) HERO DOESNT HAVE TO BE (AND SHOULDNT) BE ANY MORE COMPLICATED THAN ANY OTHER GAME SYSTEM (except during character generation, which is the strength of the system). The GM has to be a master of the rules, but by and large, HERO system rules are no more daunting than 3/3.5 D&D or other d20 for players to learn. Though anecdotal, this has definitely been my experience. The HERO rules make more sense than d20 rules, and that makes 'em easier, too. THERE IS NO REASON WHY GAMERS SHOULD BE THINKING 'HERO SYSTEM? OH THAT'S TOO COMPLICATED. THE RULES GET IN THE WAY OF THE GAME." The answer is rules that are more like Sidekick, and all necessary rules in the genre books. Less textbooks on how to create a cool setting, and more cool settings with rules, equipment, and enemies to play with. And better art/more consistent theme, and more/better narrative in the genre books, and DRAWINGS of the equipment/characters therein presented. Of course, there is no problem with breaking big genres down into multiple books. This is expensive. We can all sit here and make these suggestions, but it may be that some, most, or all of these are too expensive for the company to institute. 1000 pages explaining a genre is great for us RPG scientists, but for the rest of gamedom, it just confirms HERO's rep as an overly-complex system.