kuoshu

Re: Shaman power question Thanks Hyper-man. That makes total sense now +1/4. And I like the idea alot. The reason that I still want this to cost end is that in my minds eye I see him using this to exhaustion and kind of wheezing and huffing and puffing slowly to a halt, sweat running down his face, holding that stitch in his side. Of course, I would let him buy this off as his character grows in power, as well as start buying an "end battery" that he could drain off first. I want him to feel like he grew into his power, and I don't want that 3d6+1 strength drain to overshadow the non-power using sword wielding mercenary. Thanks again, like I said, that is nearly perfect. Kuoshu

Re: Shaman power question Thank you all so much! Some good things to review and think about. Just some thoughts to that I had regarding allowing two restrainables in this particular case... A zone of silence, or a mystic gag, even a simple desease, perhaps some types of poison? All of these would affect chanting only. An entagle, having your hands tied, being on a horse, having a thug hold your arm/s, being knocked down... These would prevent the dance part. These two lists affect one without affecting the other, thus added risk, but truly this should be incantations and gestures restrictions rather than restrainable. I REALLY appreciate ALL of the responses though, definitely helping me with game mechanics and general HERO thinking. Hyper-man, that is almost perfect, though the way I see the power working it will cost endurance. One thing I saw that confused me a touch... Should that have read Requires Multiple Foci or functions at reduced effectiveness (-1/4) instead of +1/4? Kuoshu

Heroic Fantasy Game - The game has been a long time in coming two session of character build, one of story telling/background setup and then last nights game. This was the first time he got a chance to use a chant, in particular a suppress strength. The concept is a shamanistic/witchdoctor type character. His rituals require dancing, singing and playing his rattles to work, of course he must continue to do so to keep them working. Most of the rituals are drains or suppresses, aiming for everyone in a given range being effected, thus we added AoE. We wrote this up as 1d6 Suppress strength, AoE 3" radius, Selective, BoE + various spell-like disads, OAF (rattle), restrainable (dance), restrainable (chanting can be gagged). (there are a few more disads that I am not remembering) I want it centered on him and to move with him if he moves. Just not sure what we need to add if anything to get that. Any suggestions? Thanks KuoShu

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape?

Re: Class systems -- is there no escape? Ok, good discussion here, even when it has gotten a bit "heated" but while I agree with almost everyone here at some base level, I do not agree that adding a "talent for magic" restriction that must be purchased to use magic leads us back to a class system. A character that would be "classified" as a fighter (big shiny sword, very strong, heavy armor, "is all about the beatings") can still purchase that talent and use magic if they want to spend points there. A class base game system (of which I've played one or two) does not allow that because the idea behind a "class" is that each specific "class" is "balanced" against the others. All of the definitions I've read hear have been great and very informative, but in the end it's about what a class based system actually does in a game. I know there are many things, but I think of it in two terms. 1) Help a player create a character by limiting them to a defined set of choices. 2) Hinder a player from creating exactly what they want by limiting them to a defined set of choices. 1 is roxxors while 2 just plain suxxors. But it's hard to have one with out the other, I've not played a class based system that did. So, back to the original question, "is there no escape?". Yes you can escape this. As long as everyone knows what to expect in the game setting I think it can work fine. But classes, archetypes, and even racial/professional packages help everyone involved in the game know and understand what the people around their characters are going to look like in a given game. Without them it can be hard to get everyone on the same page. Is this realistic? That's one for debate, but I would say usually not. But then it's really about being able to say "Fighter" and have people think of Mike Tyson, or "barbarian" and have people think of Conan, or say priest and have people think of the Pope. And, at the very least using classifications like this helps to guide players during character creation so that they can do most of that work on their own. When they bring the build to the GM, chances are there will not be a lot of rewriting required. So, when we say wizard, thief, priest, fighter, on this board it is usually not that there is a rigidly defined "class" with limitations on what they can and can't do, it is so that people get the general idea of what kind of person the character is. Thank you very much for your time, -Kuo "using sample profession packages in my FH game" Shu

Re: Picking up and using weapons I think you can let him have it, depending on the campaign heroic or superheroic it can add to the story and give you fuel for the "must buy with points" rule. Superheroic - he has super powers, likely more powerful than the gun, he does not have a license for the gun, nor will he get one for it (he didn't buy it legally). He uses the gun at any time and he is now wanted. (point cost of the gun probably is offset by the new "criminal" social disadvatage?) The rule is there to help keep the flavor of a super hero campaign, and if you really think about it, in a modern campaign it actually does make sense. It actually may not make sense to allow them to keep it if they DO pay the points. It's evidence in a crime. Once the guns use in the court case is over, the police will auction it off and register it legally. They may even give it to the player character as a reward of some sort. That is up to you though, not the player, and it is a bit more realistic. Heroic - Umm... Yeah, same as above, they can keep it and it is not overbalancing, they probably didn't pay any points for the gun they already use anyway, just cash... But if they do keep it, they just stole evidence in a crime case. They are now using a stolen weapon that is a) not legally registered to them and may have been used during the committing a felony. Back to social disadvantage "criminal". But they really don't get much for the disad in a heroic campaign. In a heroic Fantasy, Cyber, or Mecha setting, the prevailing attitude is often "to the victor go the spoils" and the player might have a point, but even in those campaigns societal laws may prevent that from being the case. Hope somthing here helps you explain/argue/reason with the player in question. Good luck, Kuoshu

Re: Need some help with teleporting character concept. Oh now I see. I need to read more... Actually I envision this going off much like Night Crawler from X-men 2. Possibly where I got the idea subconsciously though I didn't think of it until I was researching how to make it work.

Re: Need some help with teleporting character concept. Thanks for the replies. I definitely have a reason to go get The Ultimate Speedster now and will do so, thanks Kitty. BDH and Rose, my confusion came from the line in Teleport pg 233. "characters can not Abort to Teleport, but can Abort to Dive for Cover with Teleportation." But thanks to your comments I and direction I think I understand. Let me know if I have this right now. I need to get out of the way of the Energy Cannon that my enemy has decided to attack me with. I can not abort to teleport and automatically escape, but I can abort to dive for cover using my teleport movment power and appear X" away and prone after successfully making my required roll. (note I have only generalized the rules here because I want people to go out and by the 5er). Thus preventing a munchkin from never being hit by using some sort of overpowered teleport maneuver. Anyway thanks for the help! And Robyn, sorry... I am not getting the Agent Trent reference. Kuoshu

I am working on a concept for a new character that I was hoping some of you might be able to give me some thoughts on. He is a martial artist/teleporter. A government agent able to teleport at will who has trained himself to use this power as an assault power. Add in his expertise with with Arnis and his specially made energy rods and I see him as a formidable opponent. The problem I am having his how best to model his attacks. I've given him a few MA attacks to account for those times when he can't use the "teleport" maneuvers. And I've given him a few actual teleports, one short, one moderate and one megascale. Now I want to capture the feel of him "bamf"-ing in right next to someone hitting him and "bamf"-ing back to safety. I think I have a few decent ways to do it, but wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas. 1) Stretching (does not cross intervening space) + Martial Menuever 2) Simple Energy Blast (to simulate teleporting in, hitting, and moving out) 3) Simple RKA (see 2) Could I create a compound power energy blast + teleport and have the effect be that he seems to strobe or blur from point A past his enemy making the attack on the way by then ending in point B? Also, I know you can not abort to teleport, but can someone give me an example explaining the phrase - "abort to dive for cover with teleport"? I am not fully Grokking that statement. Thanks in advance! K.

Re: A question of getting into Fantasy Hero GM(s) and Player(s) Thank you for the replies, I've read them through a couple of times and wanted to put some thought into them before responding. lezentauw - you mentioned racial and professional package deals as very important and I totally agree. While I like the racial and professional package samples in the Fantasy Hero book, I personally think the presentation there-in is not optimal. My current plan is to have professional packages, but they will not be packages like "Ranger, Thief, Cavalier, Acrobat, Barbarian" - sorry just saw the old D&D cartoon last night. No class like packages but professional packages that may or may not have good tie-ins to adventuring. The player can No, I think I will have profession packages which are more like our good friend Erkenfish is using for his Background packages, these will include things like "City Guard, Palace Guard, Woodsman, Ranger, Noble, Squire, Knight, Cutpurse, Tavern Keep, Farmer, Acolyte, Black Smith, mintrel, Simple Horse Trader, etc..." This will allow me to throw out some good starting packages that fit with the idea that a person doesn't necissarily train to be an adventurer, but they get training in their everyday lives that kind of fits, they have an outgoing and adventurous personality so they start adventuring from there. Only a few people truly TRAIN to be an adventurer, and if the players want to have that kind of character, they can work it up themselves. Alice - I think this game can be run and played without using the hero designer software.... But who would want to? I love that, it is a GREAT GM tool. We are definitely on the same page there. Erkenfish - I want to thank you for re-enforcing the low staring point 50+25 or 50+50, that was a plan I had, but as time goes on I start to think 75 + 50 or how about 75 + 75... If that is so good how about 100 + 50? And you are 100% right, through game play I can always bring things to the point I want at the time. I also think the list thing is very important, which was the reason for this thread in the first place, to see if I was thinking about that wrong. Lists to pick from life packages, talents, powers, skills, spells (optional) are very important, especially for new and or casual gamers. I plan on creating a booklet of campaign specific lists, and a booklet of general fantasy specific things. I will be giving these out to the players. Good thought for the martial arts, but "MA" in a fantasy setting is a pet peeve of mine, I don't often allow it. But various western martial arts, fencing, sword and shield, archery... These will be there and have information placed in the general booklet. KillerShrike - Thanks man, I really wanted to be sure that I wasn't thinking of this the wrong way. I am rethinking the way I am running and looking at games to adapt to a more HERO mentallity. The biggest example would be that with HERO it is assumed that a character can successfully perform tasks most of the time. In D20 everyone seems to fall into an adversarial role, GM against the characters; making them roll for everything. Even GM's that run great non-D20 campaigns fall into it... "Make a listen check... No you didn't hear the leathery winged thing the size of a 747 sail 50 feet over your head as you were walking silently down the trail". Had that happen to me with a guy who ran story telling style white wolf campaigns when he switched to D20. Even he said it would never have happened in his other games. He felt a bit sheepish about it. Lord Laiden - So much here to comment on. Suffice it to say, I agree with everything on all points. Simple english language descriptions are required for new and casual gamers, they don't really care about all of the math. In some cases they don't want to be involved in the math at all (one of my gamers has a math degree and doesn't want anything to do with it any more). What you said on Character generation, Magic Spells, and combat was identical to what I am thinking. I am also thinking that this is the sort of thing that HERO needs officially published to help groups convert or start new. To quote a great thinker - "I guarantee that if their initial response to HERO is positive, as they get more into the game they'll want to understand more of how it works and be more proactive in character and Power design." Eosin - What you have said is much of what I have planned, including the fact that no-one will have any magic for the begining of this campaign. Thanks for the addional input, I am happy to see that I am on the right track. I've been thinking of a setting where the church has outlawed magic (except for those things which they want to keep for themselves which are religious icons and artifacts). All human campaign with all other "races" being something of a mystery, the church and good god fearing folk have hunted them into hiding. Magic users will be "vile sorcerors and witches dealing in the dark arts", never mind that they may in truth be well meaning druids, wizards from other lands or gifted healers. The characters will at first be pushed into erradicating these things, killing abominations, destroying evil magics, hunting down vile witches, I'll be but I'll be portraying all magic as evil, but giving clues that perhaps it is not necessarily the case. I'll let ya'll know how this goes. -K

Re: A question of getting into Fantasy Hero GM(s) and Player(s) Hmm good answers, and thank you for them. Now for my responses. Lemurion(1) - Yeah, I am planning on alot of front loading and alot of editing, revising and submitting to Steve the final product. I would like to get something out there that, ok the GM needs to do alot of work, but the players can get away with alot less work. The game is really for the GM anyway right? Von D-man - Sidekick... definitely, that played hugely in my decision to check out HERO, the players can get that and have the core rules to play with. After months of reading, testing, researching and playing around with things in my head I can't turn back to D20. I currently have the Sidekick, 5ER, Fantasy Hero, The Valadorian Age, MMM, Bestiary, Grimoire I, and alot of Superhero HERO books. But while things are well organized and well written, they are not packaged in any way that is easily used by a large group of players. I'll be converting my campaign setting and the ideas from that, but I will not be bringing much if anything from D20, I am aiming for a fresh start and a conversion of my players, I don't want them saying that HERO is only good if you try to emulate D&D. Unfortunately my players neither want to play pre-written characters nor do they want to spend a week learning rules to create their first character. We tend to learn on the fly. Sticking to the simpler rules then adding as we go. We are all mid 30's and professionals with families and extensive outside lives. All we have left in us after 20+ years of gaming is casual. I've been to Killer Shrikes site many times in the past year and a half, and spoken to the man himself, he deserves serious props for helping GM's and hard core players, but that site will put a casual gamer down for the count. It's a lot of info to internalize. MorpheousXO - I'll keep you in the loop as things progress, let you look my stuff over and critique. Katal3 - I believe that HERO does extremely well with Fantasy, the problem and it's strength is that it is divorced from any genre/campaign settings and for fantasy games it is easier to play if the campaign setting rules and guidelines are well established. Superhero settings are easier to run because they tend to take place in worlds not unlike our own, everything is very similar to real life except the superheros themselves. I've run a Superhero campaign to learn the game system for this reason. Keep in mind that I've only been playing for the last 26 years or so. I still consider my experience to be limited and I freely admit that I may be wrong. Manic Typist - I've played Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2nd and 3rd edition, Paladium, D&D, AD&D, AD&D 2e, "New D&D", D20 D&D, Sword Bearer, Palladium FRPG, GURPS, Dragon Quest, TWERPS, MERPS, Rolemaster, RuneQuest, Mage, Vampire, Werewolf... And many more outside of the fantasy genre, and I agree with you, HERO handles Fantasy very well. Lemurion (2)- I agree whole heartedly. Markdoc - DEAD ON TARGET BROTHER! I had my last three D20 campaigns fall apart, 1 and 2 because I allowed people to use official material outside of the DMG and PHB. #3 was an experiment to only use the PHB and DMG, no houserules. Ouch... You really need to houserule that puppy up. If I have to make up a ton of house rules I'll do it with a system that has a great base to build upon, and that passes it self off as a rules kit. Alice - Thank you I agree, that is one of the reasons I fell in love with HERO for magic! Real life sorcerors that didn't "forget" spells, that could pull the spells they wanted out when they wanted to. VPP all the way! But if I don't want the group to give up on it, I want to be prepared for a good game, that is why I am asking. Again, from my original post, the important parts are: Casual gamers - How do we best create a campaign that will allow players to get involved having to put only as much energy and time as they would like? They can always put more into the game as they learn more and become more gung-ho about the system and campaign setting. Any other ideas or things that others have done? Kuoshu

Hello all, Though this is really almost a general HERO question, I feel that it belongs in this area as all of this is a direct result of setting up a Fantasy campaign while my Superhero campaign was easy to set up and run (other than my players creating characters that is). Using the Hero System, how do we create a Fantasy campaign for the casual gamer? That's the big question I am running into while setting up my fantasy campaign. My players want to play a game, but they doubt the switch to HERO. It's just too complex. The biggest complaint stems from character creation, reading a character write up, and character development. Character development!!! It is the bane of my conversion. Some people have said that "...maybe the hero system is not right for you." but I see this as a cop out. I think HERO is vastly superior to any system out there. I hear people say that hero doesn't really do justice to the Fantasy genre, but I disagree. When I compare the mechanics of some of the systems I've played (GURPS, D20, Hackmaster, Cyberpunk, and Palladium), things are generally the same. The reason that I consider HERO to be so much better is that it gives us detailed rules to create the tools (if that makes sense). When I want to add a new spell to a D20 game there are no real guidelines other. Making it up and compare it to existing spells. The same problem arises when creating new feats and classes. HERO gives you a point system to at least have a way to base your additions on. Though this by no means guarantees balance between widely different abilities, similar abilities are pretty well balanced against each other. Unfortunately, unlike most of us, most players just want to play the game, get the loot, get engaged in the story, hang with their friends and have fun, etc. They want lists to choose from, especially when learning the system. Often I hear people on these boards asking why systems like D20, Palladium, M&M are so popular and why HERO is not more so. I have the creeping suspicion that this is the reason. Many GM's want the flexibility that HERO offers, but without a simple starter campaign "SIMPLE" being the operative word, they feel overwhelmed when looking at what HERO has to offer and will just stick with D20. Or if they do change, they move to a system that doesn't make them learn the rules AND make up everything for their campaign on top of it all. With these thoughts in the back of my mind I've been trying to figure out some ways to make the transition easier for my group of players, gm's who I play with, and the groups that I hope to run intro/demo sessions for at local hobby shops. My current plan is to create a number of campaign hand outs that will be sort of a "Players Handbook". It will be broken into sections, each section containing lists to choose from, cost, all written in plain English descriptions. I am keeping it campaign neutral, the second hand out will be campaign specific. I think this way I can use the "Players handout for any different campaign I want to run, just modifying or writing a new campaign handout. A few ideas for sections include: Players Handbook: ) Perks/Talents ) Powers ) Skills ) Weapons ) Armor ) Equipment ) Combat options Campaign Handbook: (localized to a starting area) ) General History Lore ) Land and Society Lore ) Religion Lore ) Magic Lore ) General Knowledge ) Professional Packages ) spells ) Myths & Tales ) Supernatural & Creatures Players will be able to get into HERO at a casual - "jump into the fun" – pace; then as their curiosity is piqued they can start creating their own packages/powers/spells and contributing to my world. What have other people done to make things easier for their group? Do you believe I am way wide of the mark with the thoughts and concerns I've voiced above? I'd love to hear your thoughts. -Kuo Shu

Re: Clarification Please: Phase and Stunned I've been thinking about this and I think that it is just a happy medium. Realistically it would be tough to impossible to recover from a solid stunning if you were being pummelled at any time before your next action. So if you are a tough GM you might not allow them to recover if they took any stun between the time they were stunned and their next action. Simplistically and the nicer way to handle it would be to allow them to recover during their next phase no matter what. Option 1 above can make the game pretty annoying for players, it truly sucks to be hit solidly on rnd 1 seg 12 then plinked at for a couple of rounds never recovering and unable to play. Especially when you realize that for some groups 2 or 3 combat rounds can last a full gaming session. The second option is for sissies! So, I'll probably use it in my next campaign. I want my players to have fun, I can and do give them enough challenges without this minor inconvenience. Kuoshu - It's a kit, if you don't like a rule, change it or simply don't use it. Your game, your rules. Hero is all about your rules. It's not a house rule, it's an unprinted option.

Re: Avatar? Actually been giving this much thought. I like the idea (and the show). First, since everyone needs to have gestures to bend their element I've decided not to allow them as a disad. If someone can give me a convincing argument as to why to keep the point reduction I would appreciate it. I then decided to make the bending powers a vpp. I really like VPP's and think they work great if not abused. Make changing powers a 0 phase action standard, it would not cost extra as everyone has it. Another modification to the VPP would be a standard restriction on creating new effects. Huge penalties to try to make a new power in combat, lesser to do so through self training, and even lesser through training by a master who knows the power. The teaching and power skills of the master would reduce this penalty. I thought a decent base for this penalty would be -1 per 5pts of the power. Next came my thoughts on the Avatar style of active defenses (calling up a wall of wind, wall of stone, wind shear splitting fire around them, wall of ice or water or fire, etc.). I would allowing the person to decide the form it takes based on the circumstances involved. I think this can be done with forcefield requiring a roll, activation maybe, but more likely power skill roll. This opposed check might slow things down a bit, but it would bring that flavor I want to the game. My next thought was making defenses automatically have tiered affects based on the success of the skill roll (if indeed I went with a skill roll). Every two success would result in extra defenses. Here is the very simple way I thought to do it, if there is better I would be interested in hearing. ></pre> <table border="0" cellpadding="0">Cost PowerEND12 Stone Bending Defense: (Total: 28 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points); Instant (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Only When In Contact With The Ground (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Force Field (3 PD/3 ED) (6 Active Points); Conditional Power Must make skill roll from first tier by 2 or more (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Only When In Contact With The Ground (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus Force Field (3 PD/3 ED) (6 Active Points); Conditional Power Must make first tier skill role by 4 or more (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Only When In Contact With The Ground (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus Force Field (3 PD/3 ED) (6 Active Points); Conditional Power Must make tier 1 skill roll by 6 or more (-1), Instant (-1/2), Only When In Contact With The Ground (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) [Notes: This is the Stone Benders ability to draw stone from the land around him/her to use to defend themselves. Usually takes the form of a stone sheild or stone wall between the attacker and the defender.] 4</table> <b>Powers Cost:< Much of the rest I was planning to do as a normal eastern feel fantasy, with bending being the only common magic. But as I've seen recently, bending is not limited to stone, air, fire, water... There were recently sand benders which makes me think that there is room for growth. Kuoshu -- Any help with submitting readable powers from hero designer would be appreciated as well.

Re: I Here this game is no good I say, well played Atlascott! Well played indeed! So subtle was your contol through this post that somehow no-one realized that you had steared the thread into a discussion of Rule of X, sliding into VPP's, into Multipowers, then back through VPP's again. All through the power of your mind! Soon my friend... Soon you will be ready to take over the world! And since I am the only one to have noticed this thus far I expect a high ranking position... Perhaps you could appoint me Vice Overlord of Wisconsin? Seriously though, I liked how this group some how managed to move into a semi-serious rules conversation even from the likes of the original post in this thread. Just proves that Herophyles take their game seriously. Kuoshu (now back to my lurking)