slaughterj

Multipower switches, skill levels settings, etc., are stopped from being changed by the current Hero rule which says that an attack ends your phase, and you can't do 0 phase actions after an attack. By allowing a rule change where an attack can occur before a move, the effective rule of only allowing 1 use per phase is necessary to avoid abuse - this can be seen as an extension of the rules, a rules change, a statement of the underlying rule in hero, or whatever semantic description you want to apply to it. Regardless of how you describe it, this rule is seen at least in part in the FAQ with regard to powers - from the FAQ, the first entry under the "Powers" section: Q: Since activating a Power is a Zero-Phase Action, could a character turn the same Power on and off during the same Phase? For example, could a character with Desolidification start his Phase solid, Hold his Phase, turn Desolidified when someone attacks him, then turn solid again and attack? A: Generally speaking, no. In most cases a character should only turn a Power on or off once in a Phase. The example above shows just how potentially abusive allowing on/off in the same Phase can be. However, it should be noted that, under a strict technical interpretation of the rules, what you’re describing is possible. To say characters should never be allowed to turn a Power on and off during a Segment could potentially impede a lot of perfectly valid and dramatic actions. On/off in a Segment might be appropriate in many situations, campaigns, and genres. The GM might allow it as a campaign ground rule, as a one-time thing in appropriate circumstances, or as a trick occasionally pulled with the assistance of an appropriate Power Skill roll.

As I have said before, I would run it basically like the system is already run - once you've set your levels, multipower slots, etc. for a phase, they remain at that setting for the phase. Whether you attack, then set them, then move, or vice versa, it doesn't matter, so long as they are only usable once per phase. Regarding your particular example, you may have started the phase with settings on DCV and FF (presumably due to having been set there on your previous phase), but once you switch to OCV and EB, they remain set there for the phase. You would not be able to switch them otherwise. That eliminates the potential for abuse. (Alternatively, you could tell your players "sure, you can do that", but remind them that so can the villains ) That's a whole separate discussion, best left for a separate thread, so I won't reply substantively here.

"His" I'm not sure how you can deny my experiences? Regardless, I've run it that way for virtually all of my Hero gaming, and it has not been an issue. By not allowing it, people question why. By allowing it, there are no issues. Consequently there are no reasons not to. When discussing this issue, everyone talks about the terrible speedster situation, especially in light of the poor, slow moving (though in Hero, often they have high Leaping movements), brick with no ranged attack or available ranged objects (pretty rare not to have a tree or lamp post or work station or piece of a building nearby), where the brick has no other target to attack (the speedster must have no friends) - all-in-all, a very narrow situation in and of itself! Let's look at a few situations allowing move after attack and see where the problem is, if any, assuming speedster at DEX 30, SPD 8, Running 40", and brick at DEX 15, SPD 3, Leaping 10": Situation 1: Both start next to one another on Segment 12, speedster attacks at DEX 30 and runs away 20", out of brick's range to attack within a half move or to full move move through attack. Brick can either (a) grab an available object to throw (if such exists), ( half move toward the speedster or an alternative (safe?) location, and hold a half phase, which he can use when the speedster runs up again to attack the speedster, © the brick can full move away, meaning the speedster is now 30" away, which *may* limit the speedster's options (e.g., could full move to the brick on SPD 2, then attack on SPD 3 and move away (thus 1 less phase of attacks), or the speedster would be stuck with options like Move-By or Move-Thru with the associated penalties). Brick either gets an attack with the thrown item, has a held phase to attack when the speedster returns, or can try other options - no real issues here. Situation 2: Speedster starts away from the brick on Segment 12, so if he chooses to move up to attack the brick, he will be attacked in return. Not much to that situation. Situation 3: On segment 2, Speedster moves up to brick with no held phase, attacks brick, then on segment 3, attacks again, then moves away. Speedster got to run away, after the 2nd attack, unlike regular hero, but regardless, due to the SPD differential, the speedster is often going to get in additional attacks. The speedster will be incredibly difficult for the typical brick to hit anyway (thus, think creative! grab a truck and make an area attack!), so in regular hero, standing there likely would not have mattered. Alternatively, the speedster could on Segment 4 (when the brick would have gotten a return swing), pulled phase and dodged, making it even less likely for the brick or anyone else to hit. Sure, the brick would be taking a bunch of hits (probably not much damage though), but in the future, the brick would see he would need a bit more cunning again such a speedy foe, and hold phases appropriately, resolving the problem (for instance holding phase 12 action), swing when the speedster ran up on Segment 2, maybe beating him to a bloody pulp right off). In the end, what it comes down to is how stupid the brick is played. If he has a 8-10 INT, he still is going to quickly realize that just standing there is not going to work, he is going to either have to wait for the speedster to run up, then hit him with his held action, or find something to throw at the speedster, or find an alternative action to take (attack the speedster's buddy, leave the situation, grab innocent victims if he is a villain, etc.). In any superhero game, it is like rock-paper-scissors and there will be character types which will be difficult for other character types to handle well, e.g., bricks and mentalists usually boil down to whoever attacks first. Whether attack then move is allowed doesn't affect this dynamic - characters need to be played with some level of intelligence, and characters will have weaknesses against other characters, but can use their intelligence to search for solutions. Otherwise you just get a rock-em-sock-em wargame.

Can you run up to a person and smack them in 1 second? If so, why not be able to smack then and run for it in 1 second. Until someone adequately addresses this, the "hit and run away" argument is dead on arrival. Further, you mention "1 second". A person's phase is 1 second only if they have a SPD 12. If a person is SPD 3, then their action effectively is spread across 4 seconds - it's not like they act for 1 second and then stand still for 3 seconds! Therefore a SPD 2 person is like a "normal" in D&D, where a combat round is 6 seconds. You mentioned 2e D&D, I only played 1e and 3e, so cannot comment.

We're talking about the former. The system allows for half-move then attack, but not attack then half-move, which is the basis for discussion, not half-move then attack then half-move!

I understand what you are saying, but I still think the initial powers chart should show this information, and it should be in the power summary section for each power if it takes a 1/2 action to use, or a 1/2 action to activate, to provide absolute clarity.

I think that's what we are all doing. This is an area subject to personal preference more than absolute rules, like the cost of an EB. To me, the 5-10pt lim that one gets from race is fairly innocuous in pt value, and therefore isn't intended to be a tremendous disadvantage in the first place, compared with a 20-25pt psych lim or hunted. Therefore it isn't going to be a big impact, and I think seeing that helps to place it in perspective. Also, the DF is somewhat distinct from any Social Limitation which I think you are focusing on somewhat. E.g.: There are plenty of negative effects. The dwarf can't pass for a human, elf, goblin, etc., and all the effects that go along with that. Whether this is affects social interactions is a separate consideration to some extent (for instance, the black person in 1950s America might have a SL in addition), but perhaps it can be considered to include minor things (e.g., society stereotyping Asian people to be good at math). Perhaps the dwarf should also have a physical limitation as they can't readily use human armor, a human's great sword, etc. , but I feel this goes under the DF category. DF isn't necessarily about a negative reaction, it's about being locked in a category. You mentioned about modern day people's ethnicity. Well there are some people who are clearly of certain racial types, and that provides them with a DF. Other people are less so clear, e.g. The Rock, and that might provide them with an "advantage" because people don't see them as "different". If someone in a campaign didn't want to take a DF for a particular human race, i.e., because they had a very broadly applying appearance (e.g., could be perceived as possibly Middle Eastern, European, or Hispanic), then I'd give that person a 0pt DF, which still shows that they have a bit of DF (still stand out from Asian and African people), but it would be a hell of a lot more useful to be like that and blend into various cultures and groups without suspicion.

A forethought: I like to look back at things every once in a while that I take for granted in a game system, which is what I've been doing here - usually do it in connection with making something - presently, it has been spells under 5e. It seems there is a lack of immediate clarity in the activating powers section. There is the general rule - 0 phase to activate unless otherwise stated - which is good, but I think the activating powers section should mention something about the 1/2 phase for attacking, movement, and for non-attack powers that require an attack roll (e.g., Force Wall), to avoid any confusion. And on the initial powers list, it should have a column that says "Activation/Use" time, and list them there for easy reference. This is a very important aspect of the system, and should be crystal clear to the reader, and the powers which have a 1/2 phase use (not derived from being movement/attack) should have that more clearly presented rather than buried in the description text. Thanks for the discussion archer.

I may be a bit generous (see my analysis above), but my humans get 5pt, and all others get 10pt, but arguably elves could get 5pt under mine, I'm not much sweating it

Killer Shrike, you've got some really good points in each of your two lengthy threads for why each character in heroic games should have a DF based on their race! From the idea of establishing an sfx, to the detect & slaying powers, to the shapechanger discussion, good stuff! I think there are two issues here: 1. Whether everyone should have a DF based on race - some are for or against this 2. What the points value should be for the DF, if they should have it - some agree with having a DF, but have humans come out at 0pts (Monolith?) It's clear I think the DF is for everyone, and I've statted my points above for the races in a given FH campaign, with humans merely getting 5pts, and that also pinpoints the humans to their particular sub-race as well.

And there are a range of disadvantages, from not being able to freely mingle with other races as if you were one of their own, to being detectable by Detect Elf, etc. or being affected by Elf Slayer blades (see Killer Shrike on these).

My last comment of the three was regarding move-bys, I was just pulling the whole thread together

Are you referring to me? If so, yes, I've run it that way since the late 80s without any problem whatsoever. I've played and run it "normally" as well, but don't like it as much.

That's not particularly an option in Heroic level campaigns. The CV penalties from maneuvers make it so that you can get tagged HARD and a lot more easily in Heroic campaigns, for what I see are fairly negligible differences in attack actions. And don't even think about trying to do something cool, like a grab-by, that might be heroic - with a -3 OCV, -4 DCV penalty, you're likely to fail and likely to take a beating!

I see no difference between a person taking a half move to a target and hitting them, versus hitting them and then taking a half move in time, and negligible difference between hitting them when running by them. Sure, it is a bell curve, but I said it was a 25% shift when dealing with equivalent CVs. An 11- to hit is a 62.5% chance (10- is 50%, you're #s are off, typical mistake though ), so shifting that to 9- is 37.5%, thus 25% - and you can even say it's much worse, it's a raw 25%, but 37.5% is 40% worse than 62.5% in a comparative sense.

Hmm, someone in combat is not necessarily the same as trying to resist, not sure where in the book it really explains how to handle these, but for saying all powers are 0 phase and at least in the FAQ that a power can only be activated/deactivated once / phase.

Some, but I'm clear on obviously non-attacking powers (e.g., FF) and attack / movement powers (have to spend 1/2 phase to use). But, what about Darkness, Images, and Forcewall - each require an attack roll, but the last one is not listed as an attack power? A Force Wall could surround someone of course... And what about Healing and Aid, they don't require an attack roll at all? Can I do them as much as I want in a phase? Or do they take a 1/2 phase? Or do they require no time, but only can be activated once?

Sure, you and I might see people of all races on a given day, and it likely does not matter. But there are elements of society to which it will matter. If you're a white person alone in minority neighborhood, you may be treated differently than if you were of the minority. If you're a minority, you might be discriminated against in various situations. There's tons of differences that will occur that won't ALWAYS have a reaction, but circumstantially will. Also, I don't necessarily consider race to be easily concealable. There's the external appearance, there's the cultural mannerisms, and there's potentially language and slang barriers. A white guy can't just slap on some blackface paint and blend in with the groupies trying to get backstage to the rap concert. Easily concealable seems more like a uniform which can be taken off, perhaps a tattoo on the arm that a sleeve can cover, etc. Consequently, I can build races as follows: Any human category (northern barbarian, desert folk, jungle people, etc.): Concealable (10pts), Noticed & Recognizable (0pts), Not in own culture (-5pts): 5pts Other "minority" races (elves, dwarves, etc.): Not Concealable (15pts), Noticed & Recognizable (0pts), Not in own culture (-5pts): 10pts Now perhaps elves should fall into the Concealable range, but there less concealable than human features, but a touch more N&R, and less of the -5 own race since their race is less common, so I roughly let it go at 10pts.

The problem is, it's not just the Hulk who has a better chance to hit you as you move-by, or to avoid being hit (which I don't buy in and of itself), but it is EVERYONE HAS A BETTER CHANCE TO HIT YOU. I just don't see it.

Sure, but Burton would have been subjected to at least major reaction or prejudice if discovered I suspect that same would be the case for the northern barbarian in the cannibal-infested jungle - he'd be seen as meat, not a fellow tribeman. For the races I made for the Atlantean world (Bard Games, Arcanum trilogy), humans were set at 5pts, all the other races (dwarves, elves, etc.) were at 10pts due to their greater distinctiveness from the more common humans. A couple of general questions: 1. How would you handle Tom Cruise's character from The Last Samurai? 2. How about a black person in 1950s America? 3. How about a person of Middle Eastern descent in modern America? There are a lot of shades of difference (no pun intended), that the exact charts don't allow for. For instance, I have statted out the Atlantean races, but one race, the Aesir are basically mini-giants and no way could pass for humans, though elves at the same cost could be bundled in a cloak and get away with it. It's a matter of degree, and I think being human merits "something", while other races merit even more. You might elect to slide the scale down to the humans coming out at zero, and that's your choice, but what I've posted is why I don't.

I understand your reticence, but here's where I'm coming from. FH apparently already figures Dwarf, Elf, etc. merit DF. I also think that each type of Human merits this as well, probably for many Heroic level campaigns. For instance in a modern-day spy Hero situation, being 007 probably doesn't facilitate infiltrating a group of Middle Eastern terrorists, as would someone of that origin. For FH, you typically have a range of human races (as well as differences within non-human races), for instance the pale northern barbarians, the swarthy desert folk, the dark-skinned jungle people, etc. that often populate fantasy worlds all would be a problem for a character to blend in - to me, that's the heart of DF, and it justifies when the swarthy desert raiders don't immediately accept the northern barbarian as they would their own people.

Recently I posted a question at: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10525 I thought I would try something more specific to help clarify. With merely the base 10pts in Shape Shift (sight group), the power can only allow one to change appearance into 1 preset form, e.g., "I can only shape shift into the appearance of a large red-headed guy" (but not a specific person) or "I can only shape shift into the appearance of a brown pony", but not into "I can shape shift into looking like some other human male", which would require the +10 additional shapes adder? [Just trying to clarify that this means the 10pts for basic Shape Shift is VERY limited, and would rarely be purchased (not simply for usefulness reasons, but for sfx reasons). (Side note, if you watch Star Gate SG-1 with the "imagifiers", it would seem there are preset to 1 form, thus basic 10pts, but with the +10pts adder of imitation.)]

Recently, I posted the questions below on the 5e questions section, but didn't really get an answer from Steve. I've also scoured the FAQ, searching under the relevant page #s, the term "activating", etc. to no avail. So any help on the questions below would be appreciated: On p. 71-72 of 5E, it says all powers are 0 phase unless they say otherwise, but very few powers say anything about taking time to activate/use in their description (e.g., Duplication says 1/2 phase, Force Wall says 1/2 phase to change wall shape). It takes an 1/2 phase to attack someone with a power, so that presumably covers attack powers. Also, it takes a 1/2 phase to move, so that presumably covers movement powers. However, it is not clear whether all powers defined as Attack Powers or Movement Powers take ½ phase to activate/use? For instance, Darkness/Images say Attack Roll to target a hex but not ½ phase (even Force Wall says Attack Roll, but ½ phase only to change size), but then again EB doesn't say anything about taking a 1/2 phase. So presumably Darkness and Images each take a half phase to activate & use? What about Force Wall, it involves an Attack roll but like Darkness and Images, doesn't directly "attack" anyone? What about Healing and Aid? Neither say they take time in their description, but they seem as if they should take 1/2 phase, but they are neither Attack Powers, nor require Attack Rolls, so arguably would fall under the general rule above. It would be good if the summary page at the start of the powers section simply listed the activate/use time for each power, and that each power description were clear. The general rules are good for go-bys, but as noted above, it leaves some unclarity... Additionally, in FH, p. 256, all spells are ½ phase default, but presumably to activate & use Attack Spells still only a total of ½ phase? (I.e., not a 1/2 phase to activate, then an extra 1/2 phase to attack with them?)

As with Killer Shrike, I also do not agree with "The Fantasy HERO 5e document also discourages the use of Distinctive Features in Race Package Deals based solely on being a member of that race (i.e. DF: Elf)." For FH, every character has DF based on his race, even humans, because it's not like they can blend in but so well with other races of humans, or dwarves, etc. It only makes sense to me.

In my experience, the extent to which there is holding actions seems to depend more on the particular gaming group than any change in the rules on allowing attack-then-move - some groups just play on and are loose, others are more "tactical". I haven't found some delaying to be particularly problematic, and even when I've played under move-then attack (the regular hero rule), I've seen plenty of phases delayed to the segment before their next, then attack (unless they needed to dodge, which is why the held actions often), then move away, then attack elsewhere. In fact, I've seen when I've run attack-then move, that people will elect to do that, rather than hold their phase in case they needed to dodge because they wouldn't be able to move away if they attacked. Side Rant: I think the penalties for maneuvers are excessive (nothing to do with the present issue), with simple -2 penalties causing a 25% shift in success chances when dealing with equivalent CVs. When I was younger, I didn't really pay attention, but in more recent times, I find myself extremely loathe to subject myself to a 25% penalty to hitting and 25% bonus to my opponents hitting when doing a move-by (why should ALL my opponents be able to hit me better when I'm doing this and am on the run?? and why is it harder to hit somebody as you are running by, doesn't seem so in real life??).