slaughterj

Well, the admin asst can type It seems to me that limitations the creatures have, like limited manipulation and animal intelligence, etc. , are a relevant aspect that should be considered in the summoning cost, and also that if humans get everyman skills (thus, being "cheaper" to summon), then so should beasts. If the limited manipulation, animal intelligence, etc. are not taken into account, then why should I summon a cat - summon a fairy instead with the same ability to get into narrow openings, flight (beats climbing), stealthy movement, hides itself easily, and exceptional senses - all of which would cost the same for the fairy but now I have something which can pick up stuff, read stuff, report back at a human level, etc. for the same price (based on similar things bought for the cat, not a look at any fairy in the book price).

The book says there is. And to my knowledge, the 0pt person does include some skills, whether they are everyman or obtained through characteristic-buydowns, I don't recall offhand, but regardless, it only costs 1pt to Summon a typical limited-skilled human. I understand that, but assuming things are statted properly, they should balance out in cost-to-summon with the price of summoning the aforementioned human. I think of the typical 0pt human as the typical administrative staff person here in my office, lacking in any combat abilities, significant skills (can do their job, probably have some PS/KS related to hobbies and the world around them, etc.), etc., but still able to beat a cat's ass Even if you shave the cat (er...) cost down to 20 points, is a cat REALLY balanced yet? Sure it has stealth, etc., but still...

Heh, the general and theoretical discussions have been interesting, but I think a bit "off" in the end, not because of the impact of magic, but rather because of the emphasis on the history of medieval economics, which is not the focus of the majority of typical fantasy campaigns (and as noted, perhaps a later age, like the renaissance, might be more applicable). I did mention in one post that the price system I was working on was for City of Lankhmar (set in the world of Newhon, from the books about Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, by Fritz Leiber), but any general fantasy economy system-setting-up info is useful.

Wow, this thread took a turn while I was gone on vacation I'm looking for solutions to balancing the issues raised, any suggestions would be appreciated. By saying humans have 54 points of skills, are you referring to everyman skills? What are the ramifications of these points on the cost of summoning a human? I don't believe they are a factor, per reading the Summoning power. That's why I think creatures need "everycreature" skills to balance out the expense of followers / summonings of animals with humans. Further, you surely agree that a 73pt cat Summoning power is not worth 15 points on a character, yes?

Gotcha, not my claim, that was Caveman's Anyway, see my earlier analysis of EB, EB NND, and EB DS for analysis of what DS gives you that EB doesn't, but also, what EB gives you that DS does not. I don't feel DS gives you more, it just gives you something different.

A lot of powers (Darkness, Flash, Images, Invisibility, etc.) can be purchased as against Targeting and Nontargeting Sense Groups. This is all well and good when dealing with normal humans. But what if someone buys a power / spell that works against a Nontargeting Sense Group, e.g., Sound, but then hits a target with it who has a Targeting version, e.g., Targeting Sound? Does the Darkness vs. Sound or Invisibility vs. Sound not fully quiet the sounds, so the one with Targeting Sound can still hear it though those without cannot? Does the Flash not fully deafen them, so they can still hear and attack by hearing? It's hard to conceptualize these, but it makes sense that powers which work against "less useful" senses cost less...

On p. 71-72 of 5E, it says all powers are 0 phase unless they say otherwise, but very few powers say anything about taking time to activate/use in their description (e.g., Duplication says 1/2 phase, Force Wall says 1/2 phase to change wall shape). It takes an 1/2 phase to attack someone with a power, so that presumably covers attack powers. Also, it takes a 1/2 phase to move, so that presumably covers movement powers. However, it is not clear whether all powers defined as Attack Powers or Movement Powers take ½ phase to activate/use? For instance, Darkness/Images say Attack Roll to target a hex but not ½ phase (even Force Wall says Attack Roll, but ½ phase only to change size), but then again EB doesn't say anything about taking a 1/2 phase. So presumably Darkness and Images each take a half phase to activate & use? What about Force Wall, it involves an Attack roll but like Darkness and Images, doesn't directly "attack" anyone? What about Healing and Aid? Neither say they take time in their description, but they seem as if they should take 1/2 phase, but they are neither Attack Powers, nor require Attack Rolls, so arguably would fall under the general rule above. It would be good if the summary page at the start of the powers section simply listed the activate/use time for each power, and that each power description were clear. The general rules are good for go-bys, but as noted above, it leaves some unclarity... Additionally, in FH, p. 256, all spells are ½ phase default, but presumably to activate & use Attack Spells still only a total of ½ phase? (I.e., not a 1/2 phase to activate, then an extra 1/2 phase to attack with them?)

What EXACTLY can one do with the basic 10pts in Shape Shift (assuming Sight Group)? It is unclear, versus what one can do when adding various adders, like to change into any shapes, etc. Can one look like other humans generally (though not specific people, as doesn't have the imitation adder)? More (e.g., humanoids)? Less (minor changes to personal appearance)?

I just asked Steve about Summoning and Communicating with Summoned Creatures, and here was his response: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10488 How are people handling this? For "druid" types, do they have an "animal tongue"? For regular mages, how do you handle talking to summoned rat? Just hand-wave it? Assume the rat / other creature has intelligence / training and can understand basic commands? Include a telepathic component to the summon? Include a linked "language" to the spell?

Hey, I forgot about this, but did look back, and thought it was as the responders above said...now you've got me wondering about this again?! Didn't see anything in the errata offhand...

The Summoning power enables one to command the summoned being to perform tasks after the EGO roll contest. How does one issue these commands though? Are they telepathic? Are they verbal? Does the summoned being have to understand the language? INT rolls necessary for less intelligent creatures to understand commands? I'm working on various animal summoning spells, e.g., summon rat, and am wondering how the commands are conveyed to the summoned rat, but see nothing about the nature of communication under the Summoning power itself (wasn't sure if I should refer to Mind Control for ideas).

Now I know that a 0pt power is not generally allowed, i.e., at least 1 pt needs to be spent, but could someone buy a STR 0 TK with the Fine Manipulation adder (+10pts) for 10pts total?

Yeah, but only if struck, and only if attacked, and only if by a melee attack, and still suffers damage from the successful hit.

Yep, movement, long-range communication, transform / creation magic (e.g., create food, create gold, etc.), and healing magic (including curing disease) all can have a major impact on how a medieval / fantasy society would operate, and need to be strictly limited else silliness will erupt.

Yeah, I know Steve is a "cat" person The general issue is still there though... Thanks for the tip on the Animal Follower - I'll look at that to compare with Summon and see what comes of that, regarding the points' issues and replace-ability...

While I have liked the change that creatures' size is a limitation rather than a power, which avoids the problem of summoning an ant costing dozens of points , I think more needs to be done regarding Summoning and Beasts points. (Summoning is something I don't mess with much, thus why this is coming up only now for me.) I'm in the process of making some summoning cantrips, so I was perusing the Bestiary for point costs, as well as reviewing the Summoning power, and got the following results: Summon Average Person, 1pt (minimum) - because they don't cost anything Summon Rat (Tiny Mammal), 3 pts - because they cost 14 pts Summon Dog, 3 pts - because they cost 13 pts Summon Cat, 15 pts?! - because they cost 73 pts?! Just from viewing the above list, things are clearly out of wack! Initially I was going to make a summon rat, summon fish, and summon bird spell with a base cost of 5pts and not bother statting them out, but found the rat to be 14pts, thus summon should be 3pts, and decided now to go with that for little critters. But I'm going to be making more substantive summons as well, and am concerned about the pt values of various creatures - regardless of stats, I don't think a summon dog vs. summon cat spell should be 12pts different. Anyone have any thoughts on dealing with this? A couple of ideas I had: 1. Just like PCs, animals should get "Every Creature Skills", which include Stealth, Concealment (self), and Climbing (though a few will lack this), and maybe others, at no cost. 2. Have the Disadvantages reduce the cost for the Summon, i.e., only charge total cost after disadvantages. Note that this has the potential for abuse, but as long as Beastiary creatures or GM-made creatures are summoned, versus over-stacked disadvantaged PC-made beasts, this should be fine. Side Rant: The creatures in the Bestiary should not have a base 75pts, plus disadvantages, because any of the cheap creatures end up not being "points balanced" in the book. For creatures over 75pts, they were balanced by including additional XP. But for those which are under 75pts, this just results in confusing math on the page.

Blanket prohibition against Persistent is recommended to maintain a fantasy magic feel. Occasionally you may allow for an exception, e.g., Mage Sight (for a "permanent" Detect Magic), but I would probably require that to be bought as a power rather than as a spell anyway.

Funny you should mention this. In the Environmental Conditions section of 5E, it says you have a -2DCV and -2DC in combat under water. This is related to the Talent: Aquatic Movement which buys off these penalties, and which I just a few minutes ago asked a question about the cost in the 5E questions section to Steve Long.

...Still waiting to see how this should be resolved...I HATE to change the values of something (doesn't make characters / campaign line up with published products and direct comparisons to others' characters / campaigns), but I would REALLY like to use DS in Hero... Thinking of going with the +0 Advantage for DS (no Continuous required), with an additional +1/2 for the expanded list of HtH offensive uses, and applying an additional +1 for the potentially abusive additional advantages.

The environmental penalties are -2DCV and -2DC for aquatic environments, yet the Aquatic Movement Talent is listed at 3pts - shouldn't it be at 4pts? I searched the errata but found nothing applicable... Thanks

Re: Re: Creating a fantasy $ system Kick asp link, got any more?

Wow, thanks for all the "thick" responses, some good info! I think the Fantasy setting vs. Historical setting has to be kept in mind for purposes of this exercise. I'm specifically working on setting up a price list for the Lankhmar setting, in case that helps in people's responses as to what I'm trying to do.

For those of you who have set up prices for a fantasy world or thought much about it, I had a few issues: 1. It seems the basis should be as FH has it, setting a rate for manual/unskilled labor rates for a day's work, and then pricing everything else accordingly, i.e., basic food/drink/lodging/clothing must be affordable for that rate (lodging may be tight with family/roommates, and food may be pretty basic, but more than mere bread and water, and occasional extras like clothes (or at least materials to make them), containers for water/food/etc., and minor other objects need to be available). It seems that prices for adventures for these things would generally be higher, e.g., temporary lodging is always more pricey than long-term lodging, especially with privacy desired, food is prepared hot at the inn rather than bought at a market and self-prepared or is prepared for traveling, etc. All that reasonable? Any additional thoughts? 2. I think it would be useful to know how long it takes to make certain items, from a shirt to a sword, and the costs of materials involved, in order to properly set prices for the sale of such items - any good place to get that sort of info? 3. Certain items like swords or horses often can be priced to a point in a system that it is an incentive for PCs to take them and sell them (e.g., kill 2 thugs in the alley, take their swords and sell them), which seems not very heroic, fantasy-literature-oriented, exciting, etc. This seems to be a factor of (1) such item's prices, (2) the amount of loot handed out, (3) trade-in / sale values of such items (especially as they are used), etc., but other than those, does anyone have any suggested controls for such? One can't have the guards showing up everytime and running them off before they can collect the swords... Any other thoughts?

Okay okay, two have said it, I'll check

Re: Re: 5E FH Armor Weight Errata? Nah, I'm pretty sure I was looking at the same armor listings in two different locations, not at barding, which was on another page. I'll try to remember some page cites to post tomorrow.