Old Man

Earthdawn: A really neat setting hooked up to a system so byzantine I don't think I ever did figure out how to make a character or use magic.

Shadow World: These varied wildly in quality. Some were pretty good (like Gethaena), and some were really, really bad. One example of the latter was "Journey to the Magic Isle", which, for five dollars, gave you two 'adventures' with a total of about four encounters. One of those was a thinly disguised Cthulhu mythos adventure badly transplanted into the Shadow World. Oh, and FH users of Shadow World suffered, since it was published back when ICE owned both FH and Rolemaster; often the FH stats in the modules were not usable, or not even there.

Is it really necessary to implement class-based restrictions on powers in the first place? It's your campaign, of course, but I personally see no reason why the wizard's healing should be more expensive than the priest's. It all has the same in-game effect.

To go off on a tangent, it is my opinion that healing is too cheap in the first place.

Yup, you could also just ask the player for a justification as to why is wizard can heal or why his priest can cast lightning bolts.

Kind of boils down to whether you want stuff like that to happen in the first place. As the GM, you can always just say no or say "You can, but only up XX amount."

Ah, there you go. If you have some sort of point limit on your spell casters then say something like wizards have an INT x 2 Active Limit on wizard type spells but only an EGO x 1 Active Limit on priest type spells.

Originally posted by Ndreare

He often uses circular logic jumps in the same way as Monty python or Douglas Adams. Then when I in my completely irrational way tell him “No your character still takes damage from fire†he follows with “Whatever you just refuse to compromiseâ€.

That's the sort of statement that would have me reaching for the Wandering Damage table. But then again my inability to deal with munchkins and verbally abusive players is why I never liked GMing in the first place. Whatever the group, there was always at least one guy that would take up a majority of my GMing time with arguments. I always found it easier to deal with them as a player than as the target of their warped mindset.

"Hey, Old Man, my character needs healing."

"So he does."

"So heal me! You're the healer."

"Yeah, but I took a psychlim 'total lack of sympathy for assholes (freq, tot)', see?"

"Are you saying my character is an asshole?"

"No. I'm saying you're an asshole."

"Fine, let's see how your healer likes my falchion in his brainpan."

"Oo, scary. You have an impairing arm wound, remember?"

Re: R'bon for more

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

... a fantasy world I have built combining concepts from David Brins Startide Rising, White Wolf, and Star Frontiers

God I love the Hero System.

Followed closely by the tendency for munchkins to bend common sense in order to promote their sick little agenda. After all, how many of us can say with certainty that a 3 foot tall person strong enough to deadlift 200 kilos can't effectively swing a claymore? Have we ever seen one try? Well then.

My problem with using MPs for spells is that it makes it far too cheap for mages to buy zillions of spells. If you check out my current character in the "I want your characters" thread, you can see that I didn't have to work real hard to get the cost of each slot down to one point. That can allow mages to have so many spells that they always have the exact right one for any occasion. Or you might consider that to be a good thing.

My first character was an energy projector with shrinking. The idea was that he could shoot baddies without being hit, of course. Well, back then shrinking didn't give a straight DCV bonus, it just gave range penalties. So I flew up to zap some bad guy at close range and got swatted like the bug that I was.

So I made another character who had boatloads of regeneration, which I thought could substitute for armor. And it could, sort of, except that I'd usually get KOed by turn 2.

I think I went through about six characters before I got one that was truly effective.

Here's my current character. He's a bit nonstandard owing to some house rules and the requirement for spells to go in a multipower.

Aleister Carloss, misunderstood practitioner of necromancy

disadvantages:

5 age 40+

15 obsessed with becoming immortal (cmn/str)

15 contemptuous of anyone less intelligent than himself (vc/mod)

10 competitive with other sorcerers (unc/str)

5 reputation: evil necromancer (8-)

stats

str.....10 -

dex.....14 12

con.....13 6

body....13 6

int.....20 20

ego.....11 2

pre.....15 5

com.....10 -

pd......2 -

ed......3 -

speed...4 6

rec.....5 -

end.....24 -

stun....23 -

skills

3 scholar

1 ks: the undead

1 ks: demons and hell

1 ks: necromantic magic

1 ks: methods of achieving immortality

1 ks: anatomy

1 ks: methods of inflicting pain

1 ks: legends and history of wizards and magic

3 forensic medicine

6 combat luck

3 high society

2 familiarity with common melee weapons

13 magic skill 18-

3 riding

magic

13 40pt. sorcery multipower

(-0.5) requires a skill roll

(-0.25) incantations

(-0.25) gestures

(-0.25) concentrate 1/2 DCV

(-0.5) full phase to cast

(-0.25) not on holy ground

1u 37 weaken: 3d6 suppress str, continuous, 0 end

1u 37 strike blind: 5d6 flash, 1 hex area

1u 39 poltergeist: 26 str. telekinesis, affects whole object

1u 37 theft of life: 1.5d6 xfr body to end (25), usable at range (+1/2)

1u 30 detect magic: discriminatory, analyze, ranged, targeting

1u 38 animate dead: summon 1x 85-point zombie (17),

expanded class: based on corpse (+1/4)

slavishly loyal (+1)

1u 40 unlife regeneration: 4d6 simplified healing

1u 40 summon: 4x 50-point demon, slavishly loyal (+1)

1u 37 feeblemind: 5d6 suppress int, 0 end

1u 32 sense life: detect living creatures (10), discriminatory (5)

analyze (5) ranged (5) targeting (10)

1u 37 strength of the damned: 5d6 succor str, 0 end

1u 5 shadow walk: teleport 1" (2)

safe blind (+1/4)

megascale 1" = 1000 km (+1)

full turn to cast (-1/2)

1u 37 glimpse of the abyss: aid 3d6 to end, fade 1/turn

1u 40 foul gust: 35" leaping, accurate (40)

1u 40 spirit form: desolid

It's a good idea to disallow any kind of defense stacking in FH, whether it be armor, combat luck or force field. Only natural PD/ED should stack; of the others, take the highest value. Otherwise it's very easy to stack defenses to the point of total invulnerability.

what's RTF and hdc?

Originally posted by Spyritwind

 

Armor availabilty will make a big difference with the fighters in the party. If they start out with scale in wont be so bad, but if they have resistant defenses of six or more it gets a bit tougher.

I made it impossible for the players to have a full suit of scale armor (5 DEF) from the beginning. They could buy partial armor but that allows for lucky hits to unarmored locations. Purchasing armor in the 7+ DEF range will be very difficult unless the party cooperates and is very frugal.

My campaign only allows stacking of resistant defense to 5.

Originally posted by Green Giant

In brief, what are the Fourth edition rules regarding the armor. I imagine that the only major genre that is affected by these particulars is the fantasy one. I think I am just going to have to impose the dcv/dex penalties. Has this one point been brought up on the 5th edition Fantasy wish list?

What I did was use the encumbrance rules from FREd and also slapped on an additional penalty of -1 DCV for medium armor (chain,scale) and -2 DCV for heavy armor (plate). The combination of the two should do it. Armor, shield, weapons and junks would be putting him at -3 DCV /Dex even if he has 20 STR.

Originally posted by Yamo

For the last time: Combat Luck, Combat Luck, Combat Luck!

So uh.......

What about the plate armored guy that has Combat Luck?

hehehe

Originally posted by AGLAR

For those that don't own Western Hero, here are some of Sundances' stats.

STR 17

Dex 26

Con 14

Body 14

Int 14

Ego 18

Pre 21

Com 20

SPD 5

Talent - Fast Draw 25 or less

+5 levels with Pistols

+3 levels with Ranged Combat

 

Hey, where is the limitation for being unable to swim?

wow. hehehe

FH Campaign:

"You're hired to hunt down and capture the bandit Sundance...."

Originally posted by Greenstar

 

(list of some excellent suggestions deleted)

 

Now, all this will restrict the tank somewhat. But really - knights were armored like that for a reason - it gave them a huge edge in combat. They could just wade through the groundlings and not worry too much about getting hurt. That's why knights tended to fight each other, as the commoners were "beneath them".

We know armor was effective in real life, but the point is to emulate fantasy fiction, where a quick, lightly armored warrior can hold his own against a 'lumbering' armored knight.

But when it had it's drawbacks, they were big ones (the mud at Agincourt, for example).

I don't know if that's the armor's fault so much as a terminal lack of common sense on the part of the French. "Let's charge right into the deep mud at the feet of the English bowmen!" Um, no. Common sense might have saved them at Crecy, too.

Originally posted by Green Giant

The fantasy I am thinking of is one where lightly or unarmored charcters can fight side by side with the pounding knights. Not on equal footing but having a closer match in combat efectiveness. I am looking for that one little rules tweak to bring the armor down a notch so I don't have to make transparently lopsided encounters. Something that won't introduce blantant narrative elements simply to cause problems for armored charcters.

-Green

You need to introduce an armor penalty, if you don't have one already. Here's the chart out of 1st ed FH, which is more lenient than the 4th ed chart, but I haven't got the 4th ed chart with me right now:

Weight (kg)/DCV and DEX roll penalty/END cost per turn

0-4.8 -- -0 0

4.9-6.4 -- -1 1

6.5-9.5 -- -1 2

9.6-12.5 -- -2 3

12.6-19 -- -2 4

19.1-25 -- -3 5

25.1-37 -- -3 6

37.1-50 -- -4 7

>50 -- -4 8

Note that it is not dependent on STR.

Your tank player will scream if you try to impose this, of course. You may have to bite the bullet and explain to him that his character is just so much tougher than the others that it's not fair to the other players. I can't think of a gentler way to put it.

Originally posted by Monolith

What you are describing has nothing to do with armor weight. What you are describing is altered combat; it is a specific style and it is very simple to do. You use these things called Combat Maneuvers. Instead of allowing the orc to hit you (and hoping your armor will absorb the damage) you do these maneuvers called Block, Shield Block, Dodge, Dive For Cover, Roll With The Blow, ect. You do not need armor if you can do any of those maneuvers well.

But wearing armor doesn't preclude you from doing any of this. Here, I'll ask a specific question: why would a player choose to play a lightly armored character in your campaign, knowing that he could dress that character in 8 DEF head to toe for no penalty?

When you build a warrior and put him in full plate because you know he will hardly ever take body, you are playing a specific style of game. When you build a warrior and give him the Fencing Package, you are playing a different style of warrior. Too many people buy armor and play the "hit me, I will survive the blow game" instead of playing the "your sword cannot hit me" game. Literature follows the second style of play, D&D games follow the first.

Again, armor has nothing to do with what weapon maneuvers you can use.

IMO, Legolas does not get hit because he is not wearing armor. Legolas does not get hit because he is fighting like a fencer, and using combat maneuvers to avoid getting hit.

So explain to me why Legolas never wears heavy armor. Plate doesn't prevent him from blocking and dodging. In the Monolith Campaign, where there is no penalty whatsoever for wearing tankmail, why not wear it as insurance in case he rolls an 18 for a block? Why does the Monolith Campaign hand out this free bonus to tanks, leaving the light fighters to spend all their phases blocking and dodging while the tanks get all the kills? Because that's exactly the problem Green Giant is having.

Finding their way back to the site of the attack was easy. When they got there they found no further signs of muskies nearby. The only thing making noise were birds and hungry flies. The wagons were still on the road and undisturbed.

The muskies made no effort to hide their tracks so in spite of the thick forest and limited sight, it was easy to follow their trail. Exercising caution as they moved through the wood payed off as the three avoided a dangerous confrontation with a huge blade beetle. 10 feet of armored beast wasn't something Lavenus, Mac, and Yor wanted to play with.

The forest started to thin out after a few more hours of travel. Lavenus caught the smell of smoke in the air and was rewarded a short time later by seeing the flicker of a fire ahead. Lavenus and Macarrandir moved ahead using every bit of cover to remain unseen.

As expected, there was a musky camp set up in a clearing. There were only a few muskies present along with two huge dogs. The camp seemed large for the number of beings there, but the others might be close by. Lavenus turned to go back and give Yor an update when his horns brushed against a bang fungus. The resultant crack and cloud of yellow spores made him stand out quite clearly to all.

Barking and hissing alarm, the muskies drew steel and the dogs were set loose. Lavenus barely had enough time to draw his sword before his was being pressed by the pony sized canines.

Mac sighed in disgust while putting an arrow to string. He wasn't spotted so he had his choice of targets. Rather than helping Lavenus with the dogs, he aimed for two muskies standing in the camp, thinking they might be easier to hit. He pulled back on his bow and loosed, the arrow flew straight into the the ground between them.

Yor hearing the increased activity said a prayer to Saint Sebastian asking for a blessing. He feared his two skinny associates must be in dire need. His body was filled with holy power giving him the speed to run through the wood faster than a horse.

The dog handler and another musky advanced intending to add Lavenus and Mac to the cooking pot or smoking rack. Even if the food is dangerous, it's still food. The man-badgers still in the camp looked down at Mac's arrow and grunted in effort as they flung yard long darts at the Skinny Wythir. Their aim was better but Macarrandir managed to jump out of the way.

Lavenus fought with skill but only managed to give one of the dogs a scrath on the shoulder before having his guts ripped out. Both dogs were eager to start feeding but heard a whistle from their master. Fight others first, then feed.

Transform probably works best but whatever...

Duplication: Only on Books/Paper...no that's not right. Eiditic Memory w/ scroll focus

LS: Longevity: Only on Books/Paper

Healing: Only on Books/Paper

Originally posted by Monolith

My answer here would be, so what? If a mage wants to wear full plate, then he should be allowed to wear it. To me it is just that simple.

I think you're missing the point by a little bit. Some GMs have problems presenting a challenge to groups of characters that have differing levels of protection. Frankly I don't care if my mages wear full plate. The problem is giving the plate wearing mage a good fight while not wiping out his non-armored buddies.

A thought just occured to me, let the monster/orc/whatever push it's STR when fighting the armored guy - it knows that it will take a harder swing to hurt him (unless the monster is unintelligent). Can you push STR in FH?

Regarding your point, if there are no penalties to wearing armor then most players will do it because it would be foolish not to, however, the player that wanted to play a light/no armor type of character would be screwed.

Originally posted by Monolith

I just do not like restrictions on a HERO System game. I want to be able to play characters like those I read about.

So do I. I want to be able to play lightly armored, fast characters and still be competitive with my plate-wearing companions. I want to play Legolas, who slaughters dozens of orcs without wearing so much as chainmail. I want to play Robin Hood. I want to play the Gray Mouser. I want to play Rhialto and Cugel and Merlin. I want to play all of these without feeling that I'm being stupid by not cladding them all in steel. I want there to be some reason why heroes might not want to spend most of their adventures encased in plate.

You say you don't want restrictions on a HERO campaign, but what you're really doing is penalizing players who don't want to run armored characters. That sounds like a restriction to me.

Originally posted by Monolith

As my sig file says, to me the game should be played to emulate the genre, not the reality of the enviroment.

That's what we're trying to do. Genre emulation requires the possibility of lightly armored characters who are very difficult to hit. If there are no penalties for wearing armor, then there is no advantage to not wearing armor, and every player will dress their characters in full plate--even the mage. Legolas never wore heavy armor throughout all three books.

Having no armor penalties would do the opposite of what you intend--it would make things more realistic at the expense of genre emulation. In Real Life, a warrior in a good suit of plate isn't slowed by it much, certainly not enough to make him a lumbering target. Otherwise no one would have bothered.

If it makes you feel any better, you have a pretty common problem. Pre-5th ed, DCV penalties for armor were not dependent on STR, so your 7 DEF tank would have been at -3 DCV regardless (and then made up for it with a large shield, but I digress). If you don't have a penalty like this in play, consider making one.

Otherwise, you could turn up the frequency of pick-wielding bad guys, like you suggest. It'll be pretty obvious discrimination, though, unless you run some kind of killing-the-evil-dwarves story arc.

A more general solution is to confront the party with inaccurate but high-damage bad guys. Assuming your light fighters have a significantly higher DCV than the tank, try to calibrate bad guy OCV such that they hit elves on 7- while the tank is hit on 11-. If the baddies are doing about 2d6K, they'll inflict few crippling wounds but plenty of stun on the tank. If the tank's using a shield, start counting shield damage, if not armor damage. (They don't last long.) This does run some risk of one-shotting one of your light guys, but overall it ought to balance a bit better.

To take this to an extreme, confront the party with really big, high-damage critters, one or two at a time. If a giant swings for 4d6K it matters little how much armor you wear. Yet if the party outnumbers the giant, they can wolfpack it--everyone reserves, giant picks a target, target dodges, everyone else gets a swing, lather, rinse, repeat.

Another idea is to take the group into an environment where tankmail is a liability. There's a good page or two in 5th about why you don't wear full plate in the desert.

Finally, make sure that the tank is _always_ the one who gets mind controlled.

Just throwing out some comments on previous posts:

I'm starting to not like the idea of active point caps. It would be a good idea if the power costs were balanced for heroic-level fantasy, but they're not. Drains and transfers are just prohibitively expensive, while flight and force field are far too cheap. I understand the concern with mages buying city-smashing spells, but it's incredibly hard to get more than -6 in limitations, even if you try. ECs have a similar effect in that they encourage mages to keep all spells at about the same AP level, without being a hard ceiling.

I don't think it's true that mages save points in stats. Every FH character needs to spend points in CON and BODY unless they can somehow be assured of not taking damage.

I usually ban the trigger limitation except in unusual circumstances. It makes it too easy for mages to stack lims without suffering any real penalty. Plus it feels like D&D. Charges are usually a better fit for those special effects that might need trigger, like alchemy.

I'm hoping 5th ed. FH will have a greatly expanded section on spell limitations. Side effects have lots of potential but the current "30 AP side effect" just doesn't cut it. Foci are another--there need to be guidelines for expensive and/or rare foci limitations.