massey

Re: Time Frame for Appearance of Superhumans The problem with a uniform event causing all the powers is that there are a lot of character concepts that don't fit within that event. Hard to have a 1,000 year old immortal if everyone got superpowers last Tuesday. Years ago I saw a nice little formula to figure out how many supers a nation would have. I think it was on this board. You took into account population, level of advanced technology, number of different cultures, history of and interest in mysticism, geographic area, military funding, tradition of martial training, and several other factors. So the US, being a technologically advanced nation (and thus more likely to have active particle accelerators and research labs, etc), is more likely to have tech-based supers than a country of similar population but 3rd world technology. We have a well-funded military, so you've got a higher chance for super-soldier funding. We have different cultures, so you can representatives of weird mythologies showing up. A place like China, with a massive population but little cultural diversity, has less of the important factors and so is less likely to have the right elements for lots of supers to show up. I like the idea that supers to some degree have always existed. They didn't dress up in costume, but their legends persist. In American folklore, guys like Paul Bunyan or John Henry could have been early superhumans. But in the days leading up to WWII, the first public supers started dressing in costume. The start of the Atomic Age, the public appearance of supers, the interaction of supers, this would basically lead them to reach critical mass. More supers running around together will lead to more and more supers. This kind of thing draws the attention of alien empires, who invade, causing more supers. Why does the Skrull Empire get like two guys? The Shi'ar get one team? Because Earth has a chain reaction of super activity. 1962: Professor Amazing creates a robot. Robot turns evil. 1963: Robot builds a hot female android to infiltrate Professor Amazing's lab. Androida falls in love with Professor Amazing. 1964: Robot empowers street thug with radiation beam. Steelface attacks Professor's lab. Steelface is driven off. 1965: Androida gives birth (???) to Professor Amazing Jr. Robot's first form is destroyed. Robot's second form is activated in cave outside city. 1967: Steelface has first of 3 kids. 1969: Robot irradiates 6 humans with Evolvo Ray. They change into dinosaur men and attack city. Professor Amazing changes them back at the end of the battle. Their DNA retains traces of the change. They will go on to have 19 kids, 7 of whom will develop some type of super-power. And so on. In part because of the costumes, in part because of more modern news coverage, in part because of the appearance in 1938 of The Caped Wonder, hero beloved by all, the superhuman population exploded in the latter half of the 20th Century. Eventually you'll get some Crisis type event that wipes out a decent chunk of the supers population, keep things from getting out of control.

Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

Re: The One, True Son of Krypton No one has been arguing that Superman must be one specific build. Nobody. We have said that no, Doc Savage isn't Superman. You are arguing, I don't even know what you're arguing.

Re: Gadgeteer vs. Powered Armor vs. Weaponmaster Reed Richards is a gadgeteer. He can come up with a device on the fly that will solve whatever situation the team is facing. The Batman who pulls whatever he needs out of his as... err, utility belt, is also a gadgeteer. Iron Man could be categorized as one, but normally he uses pre-defined powers. The gadgeteer's strength is to pull out the exact right power to solve the current problem. Iron Man is a power armor guy. He wears a big suit of armor that 99% of the time, does the exact same thing every time. He's got strength, and armor, sensors and repulsor blasters. Weaponmasters tend to focus on one specific tool that they use, otherwise running around in tights. Green Arrow and Hawkeye are pretty standard weapons masters. While they may cross over with a gadgeteer because of multiple arrows (gas arrow, exploding arrow, net arrow), generally a weaponmaster only uses gadgets of a very specific type (i.e., arrows). Whereas the traditional gadgeteer's tools range from everything from a small box with a knob on it to large Kirby-machines.

Re: The One, True Son of Krypton I don't think we're talking about Doc Savage, or Nietzsche, or Hugo Danner, or anybody except the dude with the spitcurl and the big S on his chest.

Re: The One, True Son of Krypton I think that's what we're talking about. The minimum level of "super". If you're playing a "realistic" street level game and there's a guy with a 30 Str who can jump on top of a single story building and is mildly bullet resistant, it's not Superman no matter what his name is or what costume he wears. Now, so far, I don't think anyone has written up that character. But the idea that his concept scales all the way down to the lowest power level is false.

Re: The One, True Son of Krypton You should not be upset that people criticize a Superman who can be killed by taking a hairdryer into the shower, because that's not Superman. If you want to play Superman In Name Only, that's your business. I won't stop you, or even make fun of you to your face (but that's probably just because we're on the internet and I can't see your face), but really? Otis: "So, fire and bullets can't hurt this guy, but this stuff here..." Lex: "No no. Fire and bullets work just fine. That's our plan, fire and bullets."

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Then go post there. I'm posting in this thread.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. We've had about 29 pages of derail. I don't think we're hurting anything. When I said "mine would beat him like a drum" I meant my Superman. Captain Brick is just an example so you can see how trying to do too many things at once hinders you.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. And mine would beat him like a drum. The point remains.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I'm a skill monster in comparison to her Superman. Her Superman has AK: Metropolis and PS: Reporter, both on 11-. That's it. Look at her writeup on page 3. My guy can actually fight crime, and speaks a different language. I've spent more points on skills than she did. That's the point, you see. I can drop his defenses to 30/30. I'm still tougher than her Superman. I can lower his Con to 28. I'm still tougher. I can drop his Str to 60 and I'm still stronger. All those points can go into making him a badass detective, and I'm still going to smash him in a fight. Superman has too many things that drain his points.

Re: Year One Your Superman can't fly if he's playing the quiet game?

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. A 250 point Superman has too many powers to be competitive unless you layer on limitations, as I did. He's got heat vision, strength, flight, enhanced senses, superbreath, invulnerability, and a lot of other abilities. Captain Brick only has strength and invulnerability. Therefore Captain Brick can spend more points on strength and invulnerability than can Superman. Superman has enough powers so that if you model all of them, he will do all of them poorly. Imagine Batman. Now imagine guy who is just like Batman except he's not rich. If they are built on the same point total, then the second guy will have 15 more points to spend on whatever he wants, points Batman spent on wealth. If he takes 3 levels in DCV, or 5/5 Armor, or 5 extra Dex, then he's going to beat Batman almost every time. And that's just Batman's wealth. Forget about the Fortress of Bat-itude and the vehicles. With 250, lean and mean is the way to go. Here you go: Josef McVodka grew up in the poor sections of Campaign City, a child of Russian immigrants forced to pay protection money to the mob. He grew up and became a cop, but one day he came home to find his dad dead of a gunshot wound. He confronted the mobsters and was thrown into a barrel of toxic waste. He emerged as Captain Brick. He left his job as a cop and now he fights crime. Str 70 Dex 17 Con 33 Body 15 Int 10 Ego 10 Pre 25 Com 8 PD 35 ED 35 Spd 4 Rec 21 End 66 Stun 67 20/20 DR +6" Jumping (20" total) +2 w/ punch Deduction 11- Criminology 11- Lang: Russian (basic) Done. 250 points. He will stomp the tar out of a lot of characters. I built him in about 30 seconds. Spent another 30 on the background. And the problem with Superman on starting point limits is that he will never ever be as efficient as a guy like this. Cassandra's Supes can't even hurt Captain Brick with his heat vision even if she rolls max.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. The kryptonite effects are instead simulated with limitations. It's there in the writeup.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Because its a 250 point writeup. I would also give Superman Instant Change, a bunch of contacts, and much higher stats. But my task here was to make one who couldn't be killed by Lex Luthor throwing a toaster in the bathtub.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Sacrifices must be made when you cram characters. Edit: If you really want me to cram a Superman into 250... you aren't going to like what I have to do to the system. You can't go back from that place.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Sacrifices must be made when you cram characters.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Okay, as promised, a 250 Superman. Animated. First week in Metropolis after some sort of reboot event. Str 15/55 Dex 14/27 Con 13/28 Body 10 Int 13 Ego 11 Pre 15/25 Com 12 PD 5/30 ED 5/30 Spd 3/6 Rec 6/17 End 26/56 Stun 25/53 Kryptonian Physiology package Loses power in red sun radiation (-1/4) Loses power in kryptonite radiation (-1/4) includes the stat boosts above as well as: 20/20 DR 10" Flight Kryptonian Abilities Multipower 60 points - same limitations as above package 10/10 Force Field +10" Flight +20 Str no figured (he can use all 3 of these together at once) 5" Flight Megascale 1" = 100 km, scale down to 1" = 100" (same active points as above Flight) 4D6 RKA Heat Vision 40 Str TK Superbreath Danger Sense 17-, any area, any danger, functions as sense, discriminatory, analyse "Enhanced Senses" PS: Reporter 11- Deduction 12- AK: World 11- Press Pass Accidental Change: Red K, Always DNPC Lois Distinctive Features: Superman! Psych Lim: Code vs killing Psych Lim: Protective of innocents Psych Lim: Stands for truth, justice, and the American way Rep: Superman! 11- (will increase later) Secret ID Susc: Green K, 2D6 per phase Watching: Luthor, 8- (still figuring out what's up with this guy, will increase later) There you go. As Clark Kent, he normally walks around with his MP in Danger Sense. It can detect any danger to anyone in the city. When adventuring as Superman, he will leave his multipower split between Str, Flight, and a Force Field, giving him 75 Str, 20" Flight, and 40/40 Defense. If he needs to go faster, his megascale flight will allow him to cross Metropolis in an action, or circle the Earth in about two minutes. If he needs a more exotic power like heat vision or superbreath, he will drop down to his normal 10" Flight in his kryptonian package (quit giggling, ladies) and use his entire multipower for that. His first purchase with XP will be Instant Change. After that he'll bulk out his skills and buy a few senses beyond the Danger Sense. Then it's additional multipower slots, some Combat Luck for Clark, and buying up Int, Body and Ego. He'll buy actual Life Support (right now he'll just rely on his massive defenses and high Con for those effects -- good enough for the moment). And upping his Comeliness somewhere in there. Can't have no ugly Superman. Critique away!

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. In the old Mayfair DC Heroes game, everyone had Hero Points. The more Hero Points you had, the more crazy things you could do. It was basically a license to cheat. You could spend those points to do more damage, or ignore an attack, or just have things go your way (what are the chances there's a beaker of acid on that shelf for Batman to grab? Spend 10 Hero Points and it's there). You got more Hero Points by successfully completing adventures. So basically when Spidey beat Firelord, it's because Spidey is a major hero who probably has 150 or more Hero Points saved up. Whereas Firelord, despite his cosmic power, is an also-ran who has high stats and great power, but maybe only 50 HP or so because he's not a major character. So Spidey spends HP every round boosting his damage, shrugging off effects, not getting hit. Firelord may spend some as well, but he really needs to save his, because his player knows that he's back into space next session, and he may need those against somebody really dangerous. As a result, Spidey knocks Firelord unconscious, because he has more HP. Once Spidey is finished with the adventure, he gets some of those points back. So he blew 100 of his 150, and he gets 15 for beating Firelord. Great, now Spidey is at 65 HP and it's going to be a rough couple of months as he has to beat up bank robbers and the like to get back to where he's supposed to be. This also explains how no-name crooks can show up once and threaten a hero. They come in and burn through all their Hero Points in the first encounter. After that, Spidey rallies and beats them, so they don't get any HPs back. So the villainous Technicolor Man comes in and blows through his starting 30 HP (doubling his power's effectiveness) and beats up Spidey, knocking him out and putting him in his death trap. Then Spidey wakes up, breaks out, and Technicolor Man has no more points to spend. Spidey beats him up, and since the villain lost, he doesn't get any Hero Points back. So the next time he shows up, he's got none to spend, and Spidey stomps him casually. After that he never wins, so he's always running around empty, and is never a threat again. He's going to need to successfully rob some banks or something to build himself back up to a real threat again before he fights Spidey. I'm not saying Champions needs a mechanic like that, but it does offer good hand-wave explanations.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Clearly there is a balancing act going on whenever you model characters for an RPG. Is this guy recognizable from his own source material, does he fill that role here in this game, does it represent his abilities well? And generally you won't get a perfect answer to those questions. I'm going to change gears from Champions here. In the 1st and 2nd ed D&D days, people would frequently debate how various fantasy characters should be built. Aragorn is clearly a Ranger, but he can't cast spells and has no animal follower. So is Aragorn a mere 6th level character? Well he does spend all his time fighting orcs... The problem, of course, is that the Fellowship of the Nine are basically the highest level characters of their respective classes in the world. Gandalf begins as the 3rd most powerful Wizard/Druid/whatever he is (after Sauron and Saruman). In the course of the adventure he gains a few levels and surpasses Saruman. Aragorn is the only Ranger we ever see, but his repuation is high and he is the leader of the other Rangers. Boromir is the greatest warrior in the greatest kingdom in Middle Earth. Legolas is awesome. And by the end, the 4 hobbits are the 4 baddest-ass hobbits that there ever were (possibly excluding Bilbo). Does Frodo remain a zero level character through the entirety of the story? Is Gandalf a 4rd level Wizard (because a 5th level Wizard would just cast Fly and leave Orthanc)? Now, with the release of the movies and Legolas jumping around like Spider-Hawkeye, a lot of the lowballing seems to have stopped. But how do you write up these characters? Is everyone 20th level? You also have the problem of incorporating those characters into other game worlds. Unless you really want to replay the Lord of the Rings trilogy again and again, you need to have some method of comparing these characters to others. Does Mr. No-Animal-Companion really suck or does his Ranger specialty class just not get that ability? Perhaps Fly isn't on the list of available spells in Middle Earth. In a closed environment like a novel, someone can be defined as the best without worrying about comparison to external characters. But when you introduce external characters, you need to know how they stack up. In other words, if you define Aragorn as a 6th level Ranger, that's okay as long as there are no 7th level Rangers in his world. But as soon as he is introduced into a world with higher level characters, you need to examine how he fits into that world. Now, perhaps no modification is needed. Stallone from the first Rambo movie clearly fills the role of "baddest guy around". The same with Ash from Army of Darkness, or Michael Myers from Halloween. Each is as tough as you can get in their respective movies. None of them will stand up to Wolverine. It's kind of a shame, because First Blood and Halloween are better movies than Wolverine was. And Army of Darkness was at least fun. But the characters are clearly on a lower tier than superheroes. You lose as much of the character bumping them up to be competitive as you do by leaving them lower powered and in a world where they don't fit. Now, when you are writing up characters from comics, you can go broad or narrow. I can write up Superman from Action Comics #437 in June of 1973. I can get a pretty accurate picture of his abilities from looking at just that comic (note: I have no idea what number Action Comics was on in June 1973, or anything about that book -- I am pulling an example out of my butt). Perhaps all Superman did in that issue was fly around and catch Lois as she repeatedly falls out of helicopters, but I can write that up. That writeup might not have superstrength, or heat vision, or anything beyond flight, but it'll be accurate. Going more broadly, you can make 1973 Action Comics Superman, based on his appearances in that series that year. Or 1970s Superman. Or 1990s DC Animated Superman. However you want to limit it. The more broad an era you use, the more power variations you get, but you also get a better sense of the character as a whole (Superman might not use his heat vision for six months in comics, doesn't mean he doesn't have it). Most people when writing up a character will focus on a particular era or medium with which they are most familiar and best represents the character to them. Some people like Antarctica Krypton and some people like crazy 1950s Krypton. That's okay. The Superman designs I've seen in this thread are the 4th level Gandalfs. They are too weak for my games, and are useless to me. My group of 8th level characters should not sneer at the old wizard and say "Gandalf the Grey? More like Gandalf the Gimp". He doesn't fulfill his role in a traditional D&D game at that power level. Perhaps this is intentional. Perhaps you don't like Gandalf or Lord of the Rings. Perhaps it is the same as having Michael Myers get anticlimacticly cut in half by the T-1000. "Let's dispatch with this Superman loser and get on to telling stories about real heroes, like Defender and Seeker." But I don't think that's the intent here. Again, my problems with the designs I've seen so far are 1) they don't represent the character from any era I know of, 2) they don't represent the character relative to his place in the setting, and 3) it is a weak 250 design. As to the third, if we start out as 250 characters in a world where the villains are no more than 250, then Superman is still underpowered. My character, Punch Man, who has good damage, good defenses, and levels with punch, will trash Superman every time. Superman at starting points is watered down, spread thin. It just doesn't work for me.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. I did. Posted it too. An Earth 2 Silver Age Supes, toned down.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Seriously? SERIOUSLY???

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Of course you wouldn't.