massey

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. 80 Marvel tons. I'd convert them at about an 80 Champions Str.

Re: Popularity of Superhero Groups in a Shared Universe I don't think Thor and Wonder Woman would have trouble with each other. Thor and Hercules get along okay. As far as the power scale goes, in a shared universe Marvel heroes aren't going to identify themselves as such. It won't be "those guys on those other teams are more powerful". It would be "boy, the Flash is a lot faster than me". Despite the fact that the JLA has "America" in its team name, I think at least the modern incarnation will be fairly internationally popular. The Avengers do seem to be much more US-centric, possibly due to the presence of Captain America and the billionaire arms dealer. In that world, things like the F-22 are probably made by Stark. The signature weapons of the US military are made by his company.

Re: Solution to Multipowers within VPPs. Don't listen to me. I'm smoking crack. It's 3 points more expensive than the way you had it. However, I think you might be able to justify a higher limitation that way. I'd definitely give you the -2 on the advantage cost.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. It's kind of an unfair scenario to ask someone to write up. Everyone basically agrees it shouldn't normally happen. So the first thing someone says when discussing character writeups is "can your Spider-Man beat up Firelord?" If he can, everyone says how stupid that moment was. If he can't, people say "it happened in the comics!"

Re: Solution to Multipowers within VPPs. Put the limitation on the "no skill roll required" and "zero phase action" advantages instead of the control cost. Edit: I don't think it'll let you do it in Hero Designer, but it's legal. I think it'll be cheaper.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. I read that story. Spidey was able to put Stun on Firelord. Firelord refrained from evaporating the city (he wanted to get pizza, and the best place for pizza in the galaxy is New York City of course). So I would build Spidey so that he can put Stun on Firelord. Might give Spidey Find Weakness and Firelord no Lack of Weakness. Maybe Firelord has 30 PD and a lot more ED. Plus Spidey rolled well. "80 Stun on 14 dice! Awesome!" And Firelord ran through his END trying to hit Spidey and started burning Stun to shoot at him because he's a jackass and wouldn't wait 2 seconds to take a recovery.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Did you see it in anyone's build?

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. We're going in circles here, and I think people are arguing now just for the sake of arguing. That's normally my job. One group seems to be championing (heh) the Hero System as the "ultimate toolkit" to create your universe. Nothing is absolute. Change the stats, change the rules, set your own benchmarks, play your game how you want it. The other group argues that there are set benchmarks that shouldn't be changed. That X is always X and should normally always be X. The "toolkit group" says that a thug's gun can be a 3D6 energy blast, a bolt of lightning a 6D6 EB, and a tank cannon can fire 8D6 EB explosions. There's nothing inherently wrong with that if that's what you want in your universe. Heck, I think the book writeups for weapons are way too high for damage and tone them down myself. The "benchmark group" says that people need characters to compare new writeups to, and the most commonly available writeups are those in the books. I don't think either group is arguing that there is some set, defined, holy grail of comic book character abilities where we discover what Superman (or any other character) "really has" for stats. The question becomes "what stats and abilities allow Superman to fulfill his Supermanly duties as portrayed in the majority of his era-appropriate appearances?" Of course this will depend upon how things are written up in the game world, and how he interacts with other characters. There will be a lot of judgment calls that have to be made. There may not be an "exact right" way to build Superman. That said, I do think there are "wrong" ways to build him. The "I'm okay you're okay" stuff only goes so far. Providing Superman with the Care Bear Stare power and the ability to disappear in a puff of brimstone is clearly incorrect. "Well that's how I see Superman." Well, you're wrong. So, we're left somewhere in between an undefined sliding scale of power, and a writeup encompassing most of the more powerful moments of the Silver Age. 99% of Superman's appearances (besides that crappy energy Superman story) will fall somewhere between these two examples. So, what are we making this character for? A new player to learn the game? Character modeling? A high end example? Those decisions will affect how the character is built. In the end, however, it is important that he be recognizable as Superman.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Life Support Heat doesn't. That's for living in the desert, not standing in fire. Again, if your Superman is 250 points, then your Pulsar better be 50 points. If Batman is 250, then Nighthawk is 150. When I was a new Champions player, I always pestered the old-timers with questions like "How strong is Superman?" or "How much Dex does Spider-Man have?" The answer of "in my game world Spidey has a 20 Dex" is unsatisfying. I wanted to know what the real Superman had. Because even though I didn't know it at the time, the real question I was asking was "How does my character measure up to the guys I see in the comics?" When Superman picks up a sinking battleship that's half filled with water, I want to know where my character needs to be to do something similar. Even if Superman doesn't exist in this campaign world, it's helpful to have someone to gauge your power against. Frequently new players aren't that familiar with the abilities of every comic book character. They just know that certain characters are good at certain things, and they want to know how good. Superman is strong. Spider-Man is agile. The Hulk is tough. Mr. Fantastic is smart. Green Lantern is strong willed. Batman is spooky. Sue Storm is hot. How good a martial artist is Captain Karate-Chop? They want comparisons to characters they know. If you say "Silver Age Superman probably had a 200 Strength or more. Sometimes he'd have 400 or 500 if the plot required it. Modern Superman is probably closer to 125 in most stories. Animated Superman is maybe a 75 or 80" then that's useful to the player. Giving a guy a 250 point writeup doesn't fulfill any of that.

Re: Alien Flagship Falling From Orbit If it landed in Cleveland, would anyone notice? The answer for each character is the same, try to steer the ship (either by pushing or by fumbling at the controls) away from a populated area. Alternatively, try to blow it up so it doesn't crash in one big whole.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Grond is the Hulk with the serial numbers filed off, and in their crossovers, Supes and the Hulk have been about an even match, strength-wise. He also needs to be stronger than Viperia, who is pretty much an evil Supergirl. Add 5-10 points to her abilities and you'll have a decent Superman, except... Champions mega-villains skew the whole deal. You get guys like Dr. Destroyer who is out of scale with everyone else. Even without Dr. D, you've got Holocaust and Gravitar and other master villains who Supes should be able to handle on his own. Building Superman on the same number of points as average characters gives you an awful Superman. He simply has too many powers. He gets spread too thin. He's got two main attack powers (strength and heat vision) which aren't efficient to buy together. He's got at least 20 to 30 points of enhanced senses, bare minimum. He's got movement separate from his strength, and life support, and he's not an unskilled character. All these add up to lots of points. A basic 250 brick is going to have a much tighter build because all he's worried about is hitting things. Superman ends up as a poor man's brick, with some nice senses and negligible energy projection abilities. He's going to get beat up by even a weak normal character though. And that's not cool.

Re: What would you do if you were a mutant? Depends what world you live in. The real world? Well, there aren't Sentinels hunting you down, or supervillain teams trying to destroy humanity, or anything like that. You're starting fresh. I have a feeling that the actions of the first supers will determine how the world goes. So it kind of depends on what other people are doing and what powers I've got. If I'm Professor X? Honestly I probably retire. I'd go get me some Jessica Alba or other hot actress. "Movie star marries guy she met at coffee shop." Living in comfort isn't so bad. And then I'd use my powers to stop injustice. Criminals confess to crimes on the stand (or if they're innocent, the DA decides to drop charges). African dictators start feeding their people, stop slaughtering them. That sort of thing. If I get super strength and can fly? Playing Superman wouldn't be so bad. I think the world's reaction to a public superhero will depend on what happens the first few years. If Superman is saving people from burning buildings and not trashing half the city with superbattles, they'll probably be pretty positive towards him. We don't live in a four color world, but I think you can steer it into sort of that direction with your actions. Dress in a bright costume, save people, stop the occasional crime, don't trash the city or hurt anyone. People will love it. On the other hand, if you've got creepy weird tantric blood magic or some icky Wildcards style powers, maybe it's best if you don't go public with that.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Because as I pointed out, without some kind of shared benchmark, stats mean absolutely nothing. You might as well show your writeup to my mom.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. No Superman! Don't stick that fork in the electrical outlet! You'll die!

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. I haven't had to paint a clown face on anyone. Superman who loses to 4th edition Sparkler does that all on his own.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. I guess it depends which Superman you want. Some people want [ATTACH=CONFIG]44415[/ATTACH] While others want [ATTACH=CONFIG]44416[/ATTACH] We have benchmarks in the game. We know what the average lightning bolt does, the average housefire, the average gun. Moreover, we have probably a thousand or more various characters who have been written up over the years. When your Superman is weaker than a joke character like Bulldozer, you've got a problem. Those characters have established the benchmarks. These Superman writeups remind me of the D&D fans who used to say that Gandalf was a 2nd level wizard, or Sir Lancelot was a 3rd level Paladin.

Re: So: What Superpowers would your Parents get if they had a "Radiation Accident" Dad the shadetree mechanic would obviously be some kind of gadgeteer. Though his stuff would probably work more often and involve less swearing and hitting things with a tire iron. Mom already has a superpower, infinite patience for dealing with my brother. Perhaps she'd get the ability to make him move out and get a job. That'd be a pretty high level power though.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. No. It's a personality trait that doesn't work well in a certain specific genre. The one where heroes never win.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Part of the thing about a 3,000 point character is that it's a modeling exercise. At that point you don't increase in power level any more. If you do, it's certainly not because of earned XP. It's a storyline thing at that point. In my opinion, once a character design stops caring about point efficiency (my version could probably cut its points in half without sacrificing much real power), that's when you also stop caring about XP. You're effectively "maxed out" and anything else goes towards contacts and favors and other things that don't really get written down on the character sheet. Champions assumes that you earn XP as time goes on and generally become more powerful. Supposedly this represents heroes who later develop more skills and abilities, or at least display more skills and abilities that they never showed before (even if they're assumed to have always "had them"). This kinda sorta happens in comics, but not always. It's a disconnect between the game and an outright simulation of comics. It's an issue regardless of which character you use. A 175 Str Superman generally needs his own villains. I'd say that 5th Ed Dr Destroyer makes a decent stand-in for Green Battlesuit Lex Luthor from the early 80s. No Battlesuit Luthor might be represented by Telios or some similar mastermind. Regardless, he's a lot of points and usually someone an entire team of heroes takes on. He fights Galactic Champions Mechanon (Brainiac) and a lot of cosmic types who come to Earth looking for a fight. Superman's usual role is to fight such people himself. He's normally a solo character. If your plan is for the Ultimates to show up and fight the PCs, 175 Str Supes probably doesn't belong on your hero team. If, on the other hand, your plan is for the Ultimates, Eurostar, the Aesesinos, and Grond to rampage through the city while an asteroid the size of Texas hurtles towards Earth, that looks like a job for Superman. I would say Nightwing probably started as a lower point character than Captain Atom. He started as Batman's 250 point follower (Bats himself being a much more expensive character), while Captain Atom started as a 700 point high powered character. And while Nightwing spent loads of points on skills, contacts, and other abilities, the good Captain just bought more and more powers. He's basically Gigaton's big brother.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Those were the average character ratings at the end of the 1st edition adventure books. You averaged the group's character points. He wasn't rated weaker. The rest of the JLA brought him down because their character points were so much less.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. I didn't post his disads, but no, he doesn't lose his powers. I figured I can explain the varying effects of kryptonite by making villains buy it as a power. Normal everyday chunk of meteorite that anybody could find on the ground (i.e., not pay points for) does 3D6 Stun per segment. It hurts Superman to be near it. If he stays near it too long, it can kill him. He's also stunned by initial exposure, so he loses his action. He's vulnerable to kryptonite attacks (x1.5 stun) and it cuts through his defenses (getting Penetrating for free). So a 2D6 RKA kryptonite laser pistol will put Body on him. You want anything more? Want his powers to disappear? You've gotta buy that. That's what Lex Luthor's gadget pool is for. 6D6 Drain versus physical stats and powers, special effect: kryptonite. That lets you get Superman Returns where he can lift the giant kryptonite island out of the water and throw it into space, but then collapses into a coma afterwards. I'll take a look at your 400 point Superman later on and see if I have any problems with it.

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design. Superman cares about the little things. That's part of who he is. Having a high strength doesn't change that. If you'll read back through some old Silver Age comics, you'll find just as many stories about him hiding his secret identity from Lois Lane, or stopping a volcano from destroying a village, as you will him pushing a planet. Numbers on a page don't prevent you from giving a character whatever personality you choose. I don't understand why I wouldn't like The Avengers. It was possibly the best comic book movie ever made. But let's look at those characters. Iron Man: out-dogfights F-22s, intercepts and redirects a nuclear missile, blows up a tank with one shot, gets shot by tank without being knocked unconscious, flies halfway around world in a few hours. Thor: kills frost giants and monsters in one blow, collapses half of frost giant iceberg continent thing, smashes through helicarrier like it wasn't there in fight with Hulk, uses super-lightning to kill 3 flying cyber-dragon things in one blast. The other Avengers have similar feats. These guys aren't 250 characters, and yet they haven't lost their connection to the people. I probably couldn't build any of the powered characters in that movie for less than 500 points, and that's cutting corners. Superheroes regularly punch city blocks over. Watch the DC Animated episode where Superman finally cuts loose on Darkseid. "Blah blah blah world of cardboard, now I can finally hit somebody." With a punch he sends him rocketing backward through multiple skyscrapers. The Mayfair game never altered Superman's stats for team play. I oughta know, since I used those books just the other day to make that Superman writeup (he's Earth 2 Superman from the 1st edition Superman Sourcebook toned down a bit, honestly). I've got them all, first through third edition (and those I don't own, I have on PDF). This thread is titled "Gods with Off Switches vs Loaded Guns". I generally avoid character writeup threads. I've seen some of Cassandra's writeups before, and obviously I disagree with them. But I try to keep my nose out of those threads and my opinions to myself on that. This is different, because I didn't think this was a writeup thread. She doesn't post one until page 3, posted only two writeups, and the conversation doesn't revolve around it. Can Superman be considered a "god with an off switch" if that off-switch is a 12D6 energy blast? With his 6D6 energy blast heat vision he can't melt steel. In a thread that revolves around how other people write up characters, I think that invites other people to share their opinions. I don't have a problem with the Adam West Batman. I don't have a problem with the Lou Ferigno Incredible Hulk. I don't have a problem with TV Daredevil or the Thor who was a blonde guy with hammer and Schwarzenegger-level strength who may or may not have been bulletproof. You can play those characters if you want. I won't try to stop you. 70's TV Show Champions might be a blast. You could team up with the Six Million Dollar Man. I might even want to play in that game. You want a god with an off switch? My Superman fills that role. I didn't post his disads because I thought the list was getting too long, but he's weak against magic, kryptonite, and red sun energy (his defenses are permeable to them -- those attacks are automatically Penetrating against him). He's got a physical limitation that he's stunned automatically when first exposed to kryptonite ("Aarrgghh!!! Kryptonite!!!"). He's got a 14 or less Rep so everyone knows everything about his weaknesses. He never ever uses full power (he'll hold himself to 10 or 12D6 for a while to make sure he doesn't hurt even superpowered opponents) and usually doesn't use his full DCV (better that bad guys shoot at him rather than anyone else). This is the Superman who holds back so that even villains feel good about themselves. "Wow, you may be the strongest opponent I've ever faced!" he says as he gets hit by Bulldozer for 32 Stun and 9 Body (before defenses). Read Kingdom Come again. Watch the All-Star Superman animated movie. There's a place for these characters in a Champions game. I'd even argue there's a need for these characters in the Champions Universe, even if it's in the background. There needs to be a reason why Dr Destroyer doesn't take over the world with his plan of "It's Tuesday. I'm going to walk out on the street and shoot every hero I see with a 30D6 Energy Blast. When more heroes show up, I'll shoot them with a 30D6 Energy Blast. I'll keep doing this until all the heroes are dead or until it is lunchtime. Then I will go home. I will tell the heroes 'See you next Tuesday...'" Right now, that's a perfectly valid plan. Right now the Champions Universe has ample Lex Luthors and Darkseids, with no one to counter them.