Thia Halmades

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

So I could have the PC build his VPP out of ... eh ... 40 points active, 20 point control, and it would "come with" 40 real points of spells built in, yes? Then he could be ruled to add spells as he learns them so long as the rule for available active power equalling the max power available is waived to represent an open book, yes? That would make things much cheaper.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

Wait, I'm still unclear: does a VPP come with powers out of the box, or is it just the framework (like a multipower) that you place powers into?

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

And the same 10x Skill Roll rule would apply to the max END Reserve, which is what I was trying to say earlier, and it ends up working vaguely like a VPP (to raise my mana/max spell I must raise both my Pool and Control Cost) but without the hassle of spending points in the VPP, and giving me the ability to build in the skill itself.

So... a skill roll is (9 + INT/5) plus skill ranks, yeah? So at 20 INT, his base is going to be 13-? And he can never have an END Reserve over his Total Skill Roll, which gives him incentive to improve the Skill and improve his END Reserve. Got that, assuming I did this right. Then learning any new spell (ANY new spell, including researched) forces a Skill Roll. That I like.

Finally, he can't have a spell more powerful than (Skill Roll) * 5. That also seems to make sense, although it may be slightly too limiting, I'll test it out. At 7 ranks, using an assumed 20 INT, that'll give him 5th/6th level spells, roughly (using KS's formula).

Then I charge him 1/3rd REAL for spells once he learns them, and he pre-spends their END in the Reserve to count it as "prepared." *pant pant* So now I'm somewhat back where I started, but with far more weapons and knowledge in my arsenal.

Critiques?

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

Other thoughts:

I still want the same things, I just have a much better understanding of the rules. I now know that I can use Charges, as part of a VPP, which could work very well. I could also roll them into the "Spells" individually and leave them outside of a VPP, and incorporate an INT/5 Slot system, and add slots based on a skill. With that. But that prohibits growth of slots without having an INT in the 30s. I also like the idea of a 'slot' being unfixed; i.e., if my caster wants to prep Fireball every time, hey. He can do that.

I've got Spell Design down, and I'm all about Delayed Effect; I also like Concentration. I can reasonably incorporate both of those into every spell along with Incant/Gesture/OAF. Now I could just nerf the whole thing, build a huge stack of spells and slap a chart on the PC with an artificial construct that tells him how many spells per day he gets, but that's very unHEROic. Not exactly what I want.

With the END Reserve the mana pool already exists; since the END is expended at the time of casting, it takes up a 'space' in the END Reserve, and then becomes a variation of Delayed Effect and ... whatever the one is for preparation/casting time (unless they're the same thing and I'm confused). I could also, as Steve put it, have two sets of lims on each spell.

Here's the part I cannot figure out. How do I limit the END Reserve and power levels of the caster? I want to tie to a skill, specifically, "Spell Craft" or "FWACKOOM NUMBER" or whatever you want to call it. The skill is an INT based, and I want the skill progression (or the skill base - something) tied directly to the END Reserve and the PCs ability to learn new spells. So, rather than Active Capping him, the investment in creating spells is based in part on his Skill Roll to learn a spell, whether its one he researched himself or picked up.

That's my vision. How would y'all work the skill element of that so the whole thing makes sense?

Re: Fantasy Cliches

Well, again, we're dealing in terms of archetypes, and this is somewhat Faustian; you can always call on the service of the Devil - it's getting the tricky bastitch to do what you want.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

This is why I built it as an END Reserve structure; you're "spending the END" in advance, and the Reserve represents the spells you can prepare per day. No need to apologize, that's why we're here. But now at least I know I wasn't crazy, and - here's the cool part - using Delayed Effect or Trigger in addition the END reserve makes that particular build work out on its own as well.

Which brings me back to this: If I were to do it as an END Reserve, where do the caps get placed? This is why I was looking at skills originally; to somehow install a mechanic (possibly close to something in a book, but nothing I find fits) that caps off Active Points in a spell, without letting the PC just dump 30 points into an END Reserve and start slinging all day long. Also, because the END Reserve is much cheaper, you can spend 15 points and have a 150 point "real" pool of accessible points for your spells, thusly coughing up the near exact amount of mana that a 9th level Wizard would have.

Thoughts?

Re: A Game Of Questions

Is anyone else convinced that playing the game this way defeats the purpose?

Re: Wondering about ideas on conscription.

*shrug* What they said. You could certainly entertain yourself by building it, but backing away slowly as assault said is probably the best thing; why would you build it as a power, anyway? Sorry, now my head is reeling.

Short story: Ruler. Ruler says "get an scythe and get in there!" You're better served building the peasant populace.

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

Insofar as discussing game mechanics to represent what you're doing: you've caught on to HERO Lesson One: It's all in the build & special effects. The difference between a function Wizardy system and a functional Divine system can be the INT & EGO score. *shrug* There's so much internal balancing in the system though that I'm pretty convinced at this point it always works; it's just a matter of how it works for you (or me, or mayapuppies.)

As I was saying on his post: you're generally better served "talking out" every NPC and class you have, then assigning abilities based on that, rather than building up a class and wondering why it doesn't mesh or flow. His structure is exactly how I construct every D&D character I have; by giving them a full description, and having linked your brain to the scaled concept, you get a really good idea of who each NPC and class you build is.

I'll be posting my initial Class Builds eventually as well, and I'll have fun watching people tear those apart. But that's how I learn, so I subject myself to the abuse.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

I have noticed some distinct similarities with the various permuations of the combat engine; it's round by round, and rounds occur in two steps (although in d20, you can attack, then move - is there a reason this is set that way in HERO?) Also the ability to Abort is huge, but also, giving all mages the Concentration disad makes them pleasantly vulnerable.

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

Should I assume that the "Bolt hole" ability provided by d20's Rope Trick can be represented by either EDM or TDTP? Rope Trick allows you to "throw up a rope" which goes to an Interdimensional Bolthole. I built the power exactly; it takes you to one place and added the appropriate mass to "hold" multiple people.

I think it was 40 points (a 2nd level spell) when it was done, exactly as it should be. Can TDTP do the same thing as I did with EDM?

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

Wouldn't that then cap out the total casts per day, without recourse, other than building up INT? *spins this around a minute* AND it would cause all powers to have the Advantage: Delayed Effect (+3/4) correct? And are you suggesting this as part of a VPP, or as a stand alone series of spells which act in a conceived slot concept?

Re: A Question of Title

When in doubt, ask the guy with the sheepskin. Well done, Mark.

Re: Chronicles of Gor

A Tuchuck (pronounced "two-chuck") is a specific clan within the Society for Creative Anachronism. Tuchucks generally only associate with other Tuchucks; they're generally disliked for their misogynistic attitudes and open-hand slap treatment of women in general. Which isn't to say that's bad, but it's a matter of who you're asking; the Tuchucks or anyone else.

To be fair, they've simply taken their experience to its logical conclusion; for some it's a fantasy and being a Tuchuck is a fantasy existence; like a medieval, rattan swinging biker gang, and tuchuck girls can be equated to biker chicks. Some groove on it, some bail. They drink, shag, yell, and swing weapons at people, and generally enjoy their reputation.

Pics you don't wanna see. And any further elaboration may scar you, but I think I've given as fair & open minded an answer as possible, for someone who isn't a tuchuck.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

Second Post!

Steve: Good morning, btw. I read this in the book last night:

1) The base version is +1/4 Advantage, and that lets you ready/stack a certain number of spells beforehand (suggested limits are INT/5, a total amount of Active Points, or a number like 6). For every +1/4 Advantage beyond that, the limit doubles. So a +3/4 Delayed Effect on a spell would let you store 4 times whatever the base limit is, or say 24 of them if the starting limit is 6 for the +1/4 version in that world.

I read this rule six or seven times, and I was still unclear as to where Delayed Effect was applied; it is acting like a self-contained charge, showing the number of instances the spell can be prepped? Is the ability, Delayed Effect, bought as a Naked Advantage, or part of a power? This is another great example of something that sounds good, and I grasp the idea just fine, but I'm still having difficulty with the mechanics.

In my above post we spent three hours breaking the system down, doing math, recreating some spells, drafting a sort of "if you don't know, use this formula" universal for establishing real cost. Even dividing that by three, we're severely limiting what else a Wizard can do (even in terms of skills, etc.) So I'm not sold on a system yet, because I don't want a war on my hands. And I'm not overly concerned with playing "d20 in HERO" but I would like a system that is affordable and has multiple applications.

Yeargh. The more I know the more questions I have.

Originally Posted by Steve

2) Using Concentration and Extra Time as preparation Limitations and then Gestures, Incantations, maybe RSR and/or a Focus as release Limitations probably models the spellcasting effects of D&D-ish style magic spells best.

Can you post this again with an example? Again, it sounds right, but I'm still slightly baffled on where all the pieces to the puzzle go.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

First, good morning! I confused everyone with this:

Originally Posted by Thia Halmades

Limited Class of Powers: Only spells in book (-1/2) This is genius. Adopted. I will call it George. However, I want the caster to be able to research new spells; you're saying a skill would do this, and I'm thinking you're on the right track. Would that skill be Research: Arcane Spells (9 + INT/5) at a 3:2, and the skill roll equal to (11 + END/2)? Thusly, if you want a 60 Active Spell, you'd need to roll 14- after all modifiers? Yes? No?

What I meant when I said "END" was Active Points/10, or in my mind, the END required to cast the spell. I said what you did, but only to me in my own shorthand. Mea culpa, I grasp this. Sorry 'bout that, didn't mean to baffle the planet.

The Fool: My vision of using Charges meant that each power always had One Charge (and thus didn't cost END) and would be applied against the Active Pool in terms of 1/3rd its Real Points, enabling a caster to have multiple instances of a single spell (say, 8 Fireballs) which would be roughly... eh... 6d6 EB, Explosion, and then the usual 4.75 in disads (Concentration -1/4, Gestures -1/4, Incant -1/4, OAF -1 (approx.), Charge (one) -2). Using that formula we found ourselves sitting right next to Killer Shrike's construction for conversion from d20: ((d20 Spell Level + 1)* 15) = Approx. Active Points). In other words:

A 3rd level spell should be worth 60 Active Points ((4 * 15) = 60). We were able to produce a Fireball almost identically, which makes you wonder exactly what the d20 designers are using to draft their spells in the first place, because it was rather eerie. Anyway, moving on.

Going by that formula and using it as gauge, we then do this math:

1st Level: 30 Active, 4.75 in general disads = 6 REAL

2nd Level: 9 REAL

3rd Level: 13 REAL

4th Level: 16 REAL

5th Level: 19 REAL

Flipping to the SRD for a second, we know that a 9th Level Wizard has the following slots:

1st - 4, 2nd - 4, 3rd - 3, 4th - 2, 5th -1.

1st - 24 real, 2nd - 36 real, 3rd - 39 real, 4th - 32 real, 5th - 19 real.

Total d20 converted pool: 150 @ 9th level.

Using the charge model, and then using Grimoire's suggestion of 1/3rd real cost, and charging for a VPP, we can (to my reasoning) approximate a d20 wizard and it comes out nearly identically. That's one way of doing it that I at least grasp, and could reasonably enforce. Then learning new spells, or reading from a book, would be an RSR function. They pay for the VPP itself (expensive) and then pay for the individual spells. If, at 9th level, they have a 50 pt. VPP, and probably a 25 pt. Control Pool (ignoring disads for the moment) that would cost them roughly 75 points of their 250 (for being higher level). That leaves 175, and each spell is costed at 1/3rd, which is "approximate spell level +1." So a 5th level spell is going to cost 6 CP.

10 1st: 20 pts.

8 2nd: 24 pts.

6 3rd: 24 pts.

4 4th: 20 pts.

3 5th: 18 pts.

Total for spells: 106 pts. With the VPP? About 160 pts.

That leaves 90 points to cost out stats (60 points, at least for the munchkins) and 30 points in skills/talents/perks.

I like this, but the player is going to have a conniption over the power cut from d20 (where he's ruler of all because of his stats; since INT controls skills he has an insane number of skill points) to where he should be reasonably, having spent most of his energy on gaining magic power. That's a fight I can't win because he equates "fun" with "power." That's a consideration.

Okay. Keeping the spell construction model (it does work) and assuming for the moment I'm willing to change "one charge" for "delayed effect" or "trigger" or stack them as necessary, could I then adapt a charge model (each spell has one charge, and memming it multiple times consumes multiple slots) and still have:

- Players capable of taking the time to read from the book? Disad, extra time, delayed effect, thus replicating the 'memorization' of a spell, and leaving it with one charge forces the PC to mem multiple applications of it. Would that still allow the player to cast from the book in an emergency, or did I build a broken effect?

- INT/5 = Slots. I get this now (w00t) but still having difficulty on how slots are added (Mastery = 5pt. skill per level? Is there a similar effect in the book?). Also, what I would ideally want is a system that consumed more slots per Active Cost/10 but I don't know how to build that, which is why the VPP appealed to me in the first place; it does that naturally by the nature of having a set pool into which to place your spells.

Suggestions? Did this make sense to anyone? Do I need more coffee?

Re: Super-quick solo session help...

I don't know enough about your source material to be able to comment without further data; can you expound slightly? I can probably cough up a few plot hooks tonight and post them when I get in tomorrow, but I need some sort of background, if you can provide it.

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

I'm not one to incite a religious discussion on a public forum, but you and me, we're here. *does the flipping two finger eye-to-eye bit* It took me years to be able to communicate with most folk, because of the way I think, talk, and the general honesty with which I behave. It's just too much truth for most people, serious. They ask a question, I give an answer.

You stop questioning why you see things a certain way; you become accustomed to simply viewing the world through a different lens. The things you come to believe in are generally counter to the skeptics; I do believe in the Fae or a variation thereupon. I do believe that most people are good, but bad people are ruthless and thus gain power faster. I'm content with the bad people having power because it forces good people to learn and fight back, and remember that until pushed to do otherwise, most folk will stay out of a fight.

See? There I go again. I have got to stop doing that. Point being. Well in. Blessed be, as it goes.

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

Aye, I do something very similar. I build all of my NPCs as descriptive, with an eye towards the mechanics. Then why I describe someone as competent (INT 13) is sort of an automatic response. Strong, weak, in good shape, fit, unfit, grossly obese but still solidly build (CON 14, STR 16) despite being too damn fat to move anywhere (DEX 7). All of it goes into ye olde blender. It's a strong method, I have yet to see it fail, or to have me build an ub3r character.

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

That's a great flavor text description, actually, mayapuppies, nicely done.

Originally Posted by The Fool

fits very well with the source, in that many primitive cultures consider the mad, foolish, insane or otherwise "touched in the head" types to be more connected to the spirits, a model that'd be hard to do if you based Shamanism on Int.

It wasn't my fault, you know. They picked me. *sigh* Well, as I'm fond of saying, you really only get two choices. You either answer the call, and people perceive you as mad, or you ignore the call, and become mad. Either way, you're mad. Very Alice in Wonderland, but I have yet to see it not apply. We're not mad. We're just far, far too sane. No equilibrium. We all generally lean too much towards knowing too many things, and having the spatial awareness to grasp them.

Most people find that much distilled truth disconcerting. And for some reason, I'm impossibly comfortable with it.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System

Dammit, Fool, what happened to simple? I liked simple. I was good with simple. I was even able to explain simple to others (my personal litmus test; if I can answer their questions and confer comprehension, I've got it down). Don't make me bust out my iron Athame on you.

But this isn't about simple, this is about me mastering a system. And I will be G-d D****d if I'm not going to do that.

*calmly rolls up his sleeves, focusing* You know, tragically, I enjoy this sort of thing. Okay.

Originally Posted by The Fool

In general, most "store & release" style magic systems, IMO, work best with Delayed Effect just because of the game play differences. I'll break 'em down, then post an example.

Delayed Effect is "stored" ahead of time, taking up a "slot", the number of which a player has available is based on whatever criteria the GM decides for his game. Int/5 is a common starting point for slots, usually with some way for wizards to increase their storage potential. Every active spell requires a slot to operate... so a Int 20 character could have a total of 4 spells active at one time (assuming the INT/5 ground rule is unmodified). So if the character is wandering around with a Sheild Spell and an Understand Languages Spell both active , he could have 2 more spells stored. Delayed Effect takes a 1/2 phase to release and can have limitations that apply to either the Storing (Memorization) or the Release (Casting). End cost is payed for at either time, decided when you build the spell.

Sorry, wouldn't this be easier as a Charged Multipower (see Shadowpup's post on Aliesters Magical Stuff.) I may be utterly missing the mark - which happens to my rookie a** - but this to me sounds like an over complicated usage of these abilities, munchkinism aside. Slow this down and enlighten?

Triggered efffects have indeed already been cast, and there are plenty of examples in published suppliments to show that Markdoc has the right of it...

So then the general concept that he posted, and I confirmed is correct. The trigger is the mage's final word, and his "target" can be "what I touch" or "whatever's on the wrong end of this finger." This one I've got; and in order to combine Delayed Effect with Trigger you tie them together, but everyone keeps saying one or the other; this or that. Why don't they stack? Did I miss something on the stacking rule for these two?

"Get back, demon! This finger's loaded!" Aziraphale: "What the... oh." And then he said a word he almost never said, and vanished. - Paraphrased from the man, Terry Pratchett, Good Omens

All the slotting has made my head spin, and that's partially because when I think 'slot' I go straight back to d20, which is grossly limited in what it allows casters to do in a given day; in HERO, I don't give a whit if they mem multiple instances of the same spell, it's their mana, they can do with it as they please, but you're also HRing the slot concept. I humbly request you slow that down as well, and start over. Less chains, more safe words.

while slots represent the maximum number of spells the character can hold, the Reserve determines the total "spell levels" the caster can prepare when fully rested.

I thought I got yelled at for doing a free-standing END reserve build? Argh... now you're simply attaching an END Reserve (modded) to a VPP (spell book) and assigning slots based on stat math, yes? I'll have to read it a few times to grep all the mechanics, but do I have the gist? You appear to be using a similar assigned END mechanic to the one I had previously suggested; it works best in a free standing build, and allows the caster to consume as much END as he likes, but caps him out based on (X) where (X) was a piece of math I hadn't figured out yet. That's why your VPP variant works for me, and was subsequently swiped.

This, however, is off the map:

Originally Posted by The Fool

Control cost: Maximum 60 AP per spell : 30 base points

Control Cost modifiers: Limited Class of powers (Only spells scribed in book, and only as written... much research, find or purchace new spells) (-1/2), OAF bulky: Spellbook (-1 1/2)

required common limits: Extra Time 20 minutes (-2 1/2), 0 DCV Concentrate (-1/2) Requires a Skill Roll (-1/2) Variable Limitation -1 (all spells must have an additional -1 worth of limits from Gestures, Incatations, Increased End cost, Side Effects, Ritual Conditions, additional materials, Extra time (on release for Delayed effect powers etc...) (-1/2)

total limits on Control Cost: (-6)

Control Cost: 30/ (1+6) = 4 points

total cost of VPP: 44 points.

I know for a fact I can't decipher all of this without rewriting it, but the more I read through each function the more sense it's making for me. An improvement over yesterday morning, when I was ready to start crying.

Limited Class of Powers: Only spells in book (-1/2) This is genius. Adopted. I will call it George. However, I want the caster to be able to research new spells; you're saying a skill would do this, and I'm thinking you're on the right track. Would that skill be Research: Arcane Spells (9 + INT/5) at a 3:2, and the skill roll equal to (11 + END/2)? Thusly, if you want a 60 Active Spell, you'd need to roll 14- after all modifiers? Yes? No?

OAF Bulky Spell Book - I hadn't considered an OAF, because I'm using a prepare/cast model, not a "Hold my book like a tool and get smacked" model. Only 1/2, but applied to the control cost it's still dirt cheap.

Variable Limits Must Equal -1 or more - that's a good way of expressing it; then it's -1, and if over, great, but has to be -1 to go into the book. Niff!

Bleh. RSR. It's enough they need a to hit roll; I don't like making people roll twice to generate the effect, that's a little too random. Urban? Yes. I think, more importantly, that everything should have one roll associated with it. Therefore a Summon forces a roll, despite it not "hitting" anything.

Now I need to reread the Skill section, but if I have that right, then I've found a way to really punish my caster and make him think before he builds spells. The question becomes how do I keep him from simply "buying up" the skill and retrying every time he fails? There'd need to be a time cap on that. More fuel for cranial consumption.

add this (at 44 points) with the Mana pool (5 points), Magic Skill (3 points base 9+INT/5... figure probably a base 13- with around a +4 to start with, so 11 points) and Apprentice Mastery talent (5 points, allows caster to prepare an additional INT/5 spells in addition to base active spells) and you've spent 65 of your 150 points for a pretty effective mage.

What?

Where's the tea?

Re: Combat Skill Levels

So they all move at beginning of your phase (your stage in the round). That's what I thought, because it was the only thing that made sense, but now I know.

Thanks!

~DEM

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

Yeah, it is a bit of a downer. But hey; just because they did it their way doesn't mean you can't do it your way; my suggestion? Don't look at their material, ever. Feel free to break from tradition. Defenestrate tradition. That's how I roll. You should my "I refuse to submit to standard cliches" themes for my primary campaign.

Re: Chronicles of Gor

Point taken, ma'am, but my point remains. Everyone is entitled to an opinion; their freedom to display it is as much an inherent right as my freedom to argue. However.

Deep down?

I'm with you.

Re: Chronicles of Gor

Capt. JT Kohonez: Like I said, you're totally free to have an opinion, and good heavens, by all means feel free to disagree with me and anything I say. The offense I took was specific:

Originally Posted by Capt. JT Kohonez

You know I used to think gamers put more thought into what they said then most.

I guess I was wrong.

I'm all about people disagreeing, arguing, debating, whatever. I haven't read the books, but the discussion on the board as a whole in regards to how people take the material and then live it out is both enlightening, and somewhat disturbing. I'm not about telling people what they can, can't, or shouldn't read. Whatever puts gravy on your muffin, man.

I do, personally, take offense to blanket assaults, specifically those which attack me (as a poster, and a gamer) directly through their broad strokes. I would submit your closing argument might have been better submitted as:

"I thought that gamers read material before making statements about it, or broad, unfair assumptions. Maybe I was wrong." In this version, it's clear you're displeased with the attitude towards the books in general, and while it's still a strong statement, it becomes much more targeted while keeping (near as I can tell) your original point.

Insofar as "right thinking," how a people treat each other is a measure of civility. I'm down with right thinking. I'm also down for a number of other things involving leather, straps and rug burn. My original fiance was so rough that I had welts and bite marks for weeks; I couldn't go outside without full sleeves and a turtleneck, that's just the way it was. My point here being that there's a difference between being deviant and being disruptive; that how people behave by choice is not necessarily how they feel others should be treated in polite society. So I'm a big proponent of "right thinking" in terms of giving people the appropriate freedom to then make their own decisions on how they wish to be treated.

No harm, no foul. You made a point, and I felt a need to counter it. In my estimation, your statements were very high handed, and that was one of the things I addressed. Pax.