Oruncrest

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

Icon from early 90s publishers Milestone (I think that's the name). All their heroes were black...

Not true. Kobalt was white, and the star of his own title. The Blood Syndicate was multiracial (mostly latino, with a couple of black guys, a Korean-American, a chinese ghost... they even had a token white guy) as were the Heroes (mostly black, with a Chinese speedster, a German brick, and I'm not sure what race Iota is) and the Shadow Cabinet (three 'sari, wrong number' Indians, at least 3 white folks, a Palestinian, an android, and I'm not sure what Twilight is.

Also, Brickhouse of the Blood Syndicate qualifies as a 'non-gorgeous' Brick, especially if Denys Cowan is drawing her, so does Monstress of the reboot LSH.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Karnak of the Inhumans is similar to the former, and there was a character from X-Men 2099 similar to the second, although he wasnt so much a gadgeteer as a brick. He rebuilt his body with spare parts IIRC. His name may even have been Junkyard. Just about unkillable IIRC.

His name was Junkpile. He's a Mutant whose powers enabled him to create replacements for missing body parts with... junk. Every time someone shot off an arm or a leg, his powers would assemble a new one from whatever scrap metal was available. Eventually, he ran out of 'meat' to replace and is all metal now.

By the way, Junkpile was a Brick. In fact, he held the Juggernaught role in X-Men 2099: the evil 'brother' of the team founder who wants to do in said founder and can take anything the X-Men can throw at him.

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

The powerpack children were between 10-12 hence they break the tendancy to have powers during 12-14 years old...

Uhm, Vic, the Power kids (yes, Power is their family name) are all mutates, meaning that they all received their powers from outside influences like the fantastic Four, Spider-Man, or the Hulk (in the Power Pack's case, they were given their powers by a dying alien) as opposed to mutants, whose poewers are all genetic (like Franlin Richards/ Tattletale). Age has nothing to do with their powers. For instance, Katie Power/ Energizer was 6 years old when she got her powers.

Your ship probably doesn't need that Contact, or Acrobatics, or Breakfall, or Teamwork, those should be bought by the Pilot.

Originally posted by McCoy

Skipper Jonas G[r]umby

The Skipper's skin turns green and has the texture of clay, enabling him to either develop Superstrength or Stretching powers (or both)

Professor Roy Hinkley

is given a supersuit by aliens but Giligan (who is experiencing a case of the runs) uses the manual for toilet paper before the Professor learns how to fly.

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner

Oruncrest: It was AC Comics that published the Scarlet Scorpion according to my internet research. Of course, that wouldn't prevent Marvel Comics from introducing a character of the same name. Look at how many "Captain Marvels" we've had over the decades.

Now that I think about it, the marvel character I was talking about was the Scarlet Scarab. Although I doubt there would be much difference between the arcahaeologist Blue Beetle, the Scarlet Scorpion, and the Scarlet Scarab, outside of how they were dressed (though Scarab is Egyptian, at least).

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner

There have actually been four Blue Beetles. My write-up is for the original incarnation, based largely on the 1940 radio show. You can get more info at

 

http://www.toonopedia.com/index.htm

http://www.radiolovers.com/pages/bluebeetle.htm

 

Dan Garrett started out as a cop moonlighting as a vigilante with heightened physical fitness granted by a mysterious vitamin formula. Another company got the rights and made the protagonist an archeologist who gained mystical powers from an amulet, the version Tom McCarthy heard about. When the publisher went out of business, DC bought the rights to the mystical version and revived the Beetle in the 1980s as inventor Ted Kord, the character you're familiar with. However, another company got the rights to the original rookie cop version and published adventures in the 1980s but renamed the character the Scarlet Scorpion. Will the real Blue Beetle, er, Scorpion, please stand up?

Actually, in the '60's Carlton Comics aquired the rights to the BB and had Steve Ditko (who'd just left Spider-Man) reinvent the character. From Steve's imagination sprung Ted Kord, Kord Industries, the Madmen, as well as Captain Atom (although I think he just redesigned Cap), Nightshade, the Question, and other characters that would later be bought by DC from Charlton.

The Scarlet Scorpion is the Marvel version of Blue Beetle II (the archaeologist) who appeared in an issue of Thor.

I posted a Marvel <-> Champions conversion a few years ago. It works pretty good for characters with Unearthly or lesser stats. The only problem with it is that the 'tables' didn't come out like they should have.

Fight SMARTER, not harder!

Originally posted by Gary

Let's take a simple example. Suppose the hero team consists of Superman and Robin. You as GM create villains who are equal matches for them. Let's call your villains Braniac and Penguin for the sake of argument and let's have them match up vs the heroes.

 

There are 6 possibilities:

 

5) Robin beats Penguin first. Robin tries to help out vs Braniac, but quickly realizes that his best attack barely does any damage (Braniac has the defenses to go toe to toe with Superman after all). Robin feels useless.

More like:

5) Robin beats Penguin first. Realizing that he probably won't be able to cause Brainiac any damage (Braniac has the defenses to go toe to toe with Superman after all), Robin tries to find out what Brainiac & Penguin were up to, then puts a stop to their nefarious scheme while Superman puts the kibosh on Brainiac.

Success isn't necesarily determined by how many people you can beat up un a turn you know. And who knows, if there's some sort of equipment around that can stop or slow Brainiac down enough for Supes to clobber him, Robin would use it.

In fact, there's a Superman annual (#10 I believe) where robin does just that. Superman is wrapped up in the coils of a parasitic plant, the Black Mercy, and Mongul (who put Supes in that predicament, has just finished explaining what the Black Mercy is to Wonder Woman, Batman, and Robin and is wondering which of the three he should kill first.

While WW is punishing Mongul's fist mercilessly, Batman is getting the Black Mercy off of Superman. Robin tries to give Bats Monguls gloves (which Mongul had to use to handle the Black Mercy safely), but Batman ignores him and becomes the Black Mercy's next victim.

Superman wakes up. Robin points him in Mongul's direction and off Supes goes to open up a can of WhoopAss. Meanwhile, Robin uses Mongul's gloves to pull the Black Mercy off Batman (gotta love the glove) and goes off in the direction of the Supes/Mongul fight. Good thing too, 'cause Mongul had just gotten the upper hand when Robin shows up and drops the Black Mercy on him.

Useless? No. Even though Robin was well out of his weight class, he certainly wasn't useless.

Originally posted by Enforcer84

Actually, I wrote it. Susano Hosts it.

Oops. Sorry 'bout that.

I don't think so. but Susano's written up a literary 'decendant' of his, Axel Brass that you should be able to alter to suit your purposes.

Thanks Superskrull. I had their writeups, but I didn't know which issue they were in, or who wrote them up.

By the way, should we be putting writeups on characters who've already been written up in a magazine, even if it's been over a decade since the magazine was published? I don't want to step on anyone's IP, after all.

What issue number was that?

You have to remember, each (pre-CRISIS) Lantern has a sector that he works out of. Said sector is 1/3600th the size of the universe.

From what I've read recently, the Universe is about 40 Billion light years wide (give or take a few hundred million parsecs), so each sector is about... (gulp) 9,308,422,677,303,091,076,926,350,765 cubic light years wide:eek:.

Also note that Galactus' diet used to consist of a planet every century, (it's only in recent times that Galactus' hunger has gotten out of pocket), so assuming that the Universe is around 20 billion years old, then the big G has consumed about 200 million worlds. If we were to use the 'optimistic' number of planets in a Galaxy from Star Hero (i.e. 180,000 technological civilizations), then Galactus has eaten his way thru over 1100 galaxies. But that just assumes that he only eats worlds with technological civilizations. If you include all the worlds in that 'optimistic' galaxy that had developed life but couldn't send a distress signal (about 360 billion planets in a galaxy the size of the Milky Way alone), then Galactus becomes almost small time.

A galactic empire like the Kree, Shi'ar, or Skrull wouldn't have too much trouble out of the GLC, so long as they didn't try to use Palpatine's Guide to Grinding Down on the Petty Masses and get rediculously Machavellian. The Guardians want the Corps to be trusted by the sentients of the universe, and they can't be very well trusted if they go around overthrowing every government they disagreeing with (In fact, one GL resigned from the Corps in order to fight the Vegan Citadel and the Guardians wouldn't let him).

Yes, there are Green Lanters in the 30th century, however (pre-ZERO HOUR), they are banned from entering Earth's solar system because of a near disastrous incident involving a rebellious Earth-born GL (Why do the Guardians keep picking Terrans anyway? They'll just become villians.) who'd later go on to become Universo (see what I mean). The Guardians then turned around and gave his son, Rond, a ring and told him that he had to work undercover (to get around the no-GL restriction). But the moron had to go and invade Tharn and got his butt stomped by Mordru, who crushed his ring. I don't remember if the Guardians ever gave him a new one. Maybe they're learning.

Use Inherent on pg 165 of the FREd. That way, you can turn the power off by paying END (I would suggest an END cost as high as the Base Cost/10 per phase). For example: FADE has Desolidification, 0END, Persistent, Inherent, Always on for 60 points. Normally, Fade is always desolid, but with an act of will (and paying 4 END/ phase), Fade can solidify to hug people, eat, ect.

Originally posted by SuperBlue

OHHH... I thought you made the same mistake I did when I first started watching DBZ, I thought it was Begita too.

 

Idiot Feeling = True

Don't feel too bad. I once picked up an early DBZ video and saw that it had closed captioning. When I activated the CC function on my TV, Vegeta was called 'Prince Fujita'.

Originally posted by Lightray

Rond Vidar was revealed to be the last Green Lantern, several continuities ago. IIRC, Celeste Rockfish became infused with his ring's energy once it was destroyed.

Actually, Rond Vidar is the GL of 30th century Earth. Undercover, since Green Lanters aren't allowed in Earth's Solar System after an attempted takeover of the time institute by the previous GL of Earth - Rond's father, Universo. Celeste got her power from the ring of another GL. Acutally, it killed her but she took control of the energy of the ring and commanded it to resusitate her body, then promptly forgot she ever had the power in the first place (shock, you see).

I can't remember seeing Thanagar turn up...

Thanagar had a cameo in a preboot LSH annual where the LSH was investigating attacks on the decendents of the Justice League (two of Hawkman's decendents were killed).

Originally posted by TheTemplar

You're not thinking of the Growth villain from the LoD, are you? I can't remember her name, but she ran around in leopard skins and always tangled w/ the Chief because they had more or less the same powerset.

 

-T

Nah. You're thinking about Giganta, a GA Wonder Woman supervillianess who was 'updated' (read: had her origin gutted and her abilities changed) to make her into Apache Chief's nemisis.

Jim's thinking about Rima, who had a blue leotard and white hair. And that's all I know about her.

Question: Is there a way we can get rid of Gillbill's spam without having to kill the thread?

The Joy of DEX

Nebulon said

With all due respect sir Oruncrest, that high a DEX somewhat takes out the charm of Cap in my humble immortal opinion, who is at peak normal human level. I would put him at DEX 20 at its lowest, 23 at is highest, paid a double fare over 20.

I guess it depends on where one places their concept of 'peak human level' in a Champions game. My peak for DEX is 30, yours is obviously lower.

Nebulon said

With the 30 pts the extra DEX costed, I would buy back the SPD (Ideally at 4) for 10 pts, take 5 extra CSL with (Generic) M-arts, and 2 SL with 3-related, DEX skills. In combat, I would cancel to dodge/block until my next phase, where I would put everything into offensive, preferably at the end of the phase, so I could cancel again fast if need be.

So, lemme see if I've got this straight; you wanna limit his speed to 4, then switch between block/dodge on one phase and attack on the next, effectively cutting his SPD in half to try and simulate what could have been done easier by spending an extra 30 points on his DEX.

Did I get that right?

Nebulon said

He does that a lot in Avengers. Skilled, experienced and dedicated instead of surhuman.

 

The problem is, Champion characters don't have to sell like in the comic biz. They have to be more complete combat masters to effectively survive, because the trials come from dices rather than by scenarist. So yes, they're more effective, sometime without hurting the concept, sometimes not. That Cap you made is probably more suited to a Champion game than the "real" one.

You're right. Champions characters don't have the omnipotent writer to ensure that the 'stormtrooper effect' (where 'several battalions of 'Bad Guys' firing on a 'Good Guy' standing alone in the middle of an open field will always miss') is running during their fights. They can't count on the writer to make their opponents stand around like complete boobs so they can clobber them with ease. All they have are the dice, which can be uncaring at best and malicious at worst. If the PCs can't count on the dice's help, they should be able to at least take steps to minimze the damage done. Whether this is done by high Defs ("You can't hurt me with those popguns, copper"), High DEXs ("Damn you! Stand Still! "Fighting you is like standing still!"), skill Levels ("My defense is impenetrable, my offense, impetuous."), or any moderate combination of the above should be dependent upon the character conception.

Morningstar said

I think 30 is right on for most of Caps stats. I think the creation of Telios as the perfect man set that up for him. He is the strongest, fastest, and most durable a human can be. Not just before he starts paying double points. I understand you feel most of champions characters have too high of a dex score but that is the way the writers of the game have set the bar for us. I wouldnt make Cap less dextrous than most of the normal martial artists they have created. That would defy the fact that he is human perfection.

I think that you misunderstand me: I think that some characters have DEXs that are too high for their concepts. Certain concepts (martial artists, speedsters, ect.) benefit from a character with a high DEX (23+). Certain concepts (energy projectors, 'fast' bricks, ect.) find their sweet spot with a median DEX (14-23) and some Levels. And some concepts ('slow' bricks, some mentalists) should rely mostly on levels and/or high defenses. Of course, where I place high, median, and low DEXs is probably different from where you might place them.

Originally posted by Morningstar70

How does Dex 7 in DCH translate to Dex 23?

I used to simply add 1 to the DCH Dex to get the base CV and multiply by 3 (i.e. (Dex 7+1 = 8 CV ×3 = 24 DEX), then I found some conversion notes by Aaron Sulivan that fit more with my way of thinking.

For a Dex of 10 or less, multiply Dex by 2.5 and add 5 (i.e. Dex 7×2.5 = 18 + 5 = 23 DEX).

For a Dex over 10, subtract 10 from the Dex, multiply the reamainder by 2, and add 30 (for instance, Superman has a Dex of 15 in DCH, 15 - 10 = 5 × 2 = 10 +30 = 40 DEX.)

The Joy of DEX

Originally posted by Morningstar

Onruncrest,

 

Thanks for actually using data in your opinion, it really does make it so much more credible and easier to discuss IMO.

 

Here is where I disagree with you:

 

Champions definition of Dexterity is a charcters:

1.agility

2. reaction time

3. accuracy

You can be amazing at throwing objects, or have great eye hand coordination and still not be great at dodging and moving. Champions defines these traits all as the same characteristic.

And some might call that a flaw of the system, since the higher the number, the better you are with everything that falls under that stat (in this case, DEX). That's why there're Levels, so that if you absolutely suck at one stat aspect (say, DCV), the other aspects don't have to suffer as well.

Characters with normal human characteristics with superpowered energy blasts are not obliged to keep 10-15 dexterity scores and buy levels. The ones in the Champions material certainly do not.

No they don't. If their concept allows them to be able to run out in the middle of a warzone, blasting left, right, and center, hitting everything he aims at while casually evading all the return fire, then by all means, give this character a high DEX. Here's a couple of examples of having a high DEX:

My Captain America is 30 DEX. The average HYDRA agent has an OCV of 5, giving him a 9% chance of hitting Cap, while Cap has a 98% chance of hitting the agent (not counting his +4 Levels with HTH and +4 with his shield). This fits with scenes where Cap is leaping into a horde of HYDRA agents, punching and kicking anyone who has the misfortune to be in his range.

Bulldozer is DEX 20, that means that he has a DCV of 7. The average security guard has a DEX of 10 (OCV 3), and maybe +1 with his revolver. Bulldozer walks into a bank to hold it up (You're robbing it you moron. Stop trying to pick up the building). The two security guards pull out their guns and shoot at Bulldozer. The guards need to roll an 8 or less to hit. This means they only have a 26% chance to hit, or only 1 bullet out of every four fired by them will hit Bulldozer. Now, if you see Bulldozer casually evading gunfire as he robs the bank, then he has the right amount of DEX. If you see him wading thru a hail of gunfire, commenting about noisy mosquitos, then there is a problem with his DEX.

First off I think MSH was a HORRIBLE game! The stats were done terribly and do not reflect the comic characters ability as shown in there true body of work, the years and years of comics themselves. MSH is a pale, simplistic shade of a game compared to Champions. Marvel has always done a poor job with editing the work of whoever stats for them. For a current example look at there web site and see some of the insane discrepancies. Here is one:

Those stats are from the Marvel Superheroes Adventure Game (SAGA). I'm using the older Marvel Super Heroes game (MSH). They're two completely different systems. I can't stress that enough. I don't know beans about SAGA, and from the stats you found, I can see I didn't miss anything.

Your last paragraph confused me as to how you were justifying a higher dex for certain characters, Green Lantern, Vindicator? Who is a "titleholder" and if it is just an iconic powerful character, well Thor is marvels Power Icon. I also think if you really read a lot of Thor and Avenger books you will see numerous examples of his speed that no human could possibly match.

The Titleholder remark was made when I was looking through the 3rd DC Heroes RPG. While I was fliping thru the 'heroes' section, I noticed that, with the exception of Starfire, all the heroes who had a Dex of 7 or better (corresponding with a DEX of 23 in Champions) had starred or were starring in a book dedicated to that character. Thus they were 'titleholders'. For instance, Guy Gardner, who starred in his own book around the time of DCH 3, had a Dex of 7 (23 in HERO). Lobo had a Dex of 10 (30 in HERO). I'm sorry if you inferred any allusions to greatness from that reference. M'i bad.

Morningstar says

Oruncrest said

As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX.

 

Juggernaut 8 DEX? Says who? Who in the Champions Universe only has an 8 DEX?

Joe & Jane normal, who Juggernaut is supposed to be slower than. In MSH, most normals have Typical(6) agility, which I always translate as 10 DEX. Jugg-head has Poor(4) agiility, which converts to an 8 DEX. Understand now?

What I am saying is look at the Champions Universe and the collection of Heroes & Villians. Look at the ones that are obvious take offs on existing marvel and DC characters, they do not have DEX scores that low.

 

Warlord 20 DEX Ankylosaur 21 DEX So these 2 in there giant armored suits are as dextrous as a circus acrobat and THOR isnt?

Lets look at some of those armored dues in MSH:

Iron Man: Remarkable(30) Agility, DEX 25

Vindicator: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30

Annihilus: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30

Beetle: Good (10) Agility, DEX 15

Crimson Dynamo: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30

Dr. Doom: Excellent (20) Agility, DEX 20

Mandroid: Good (10) Agility, DEX 15

Titanium Man: Remarkable(30) Agility, DEX 25

I haven't seen Warlord and I don't know who Ankylosaur was supposed to take from, so you'll have to tell me how they compare to their 'Parent Figures'.

The incredible pathetic Bulldozer 20 DEX Circus Acrobat?

 

Durak 23 Gargantua 20 Grond 18

 

What on earth would possess you to call THOR a 17-18?? Or Juggernaut an 8??

The easy answer is that I'm playing with the numbers from the MSH Game. Why did MSH give those numbers for these characters? That's because of one simple word:

CONCEPT!!!

Thor's concept is that of a brawler, he likes a good punch-up and is very good at it, as evidenced by his +13 Levels with HTH. However, he's also well known for throwing his hammer and clobbering someone from a distance, as well as deflecting long-range attacks. As a result, the writers of the MSH felt justifed to give him Excellent Agility. For the most part, I agree with their assessment, even though I think a 20 DEX (for his Ex. Agility) gives him too high a base DCV in melee. While I could use a whole bunch of game mechanics to correct this percieved flaw, the desire to KISS points out that an extra point or two of DCV is worth the (minor) irritation.

Juggernaut's concept is that he's unstoppable. Guns, missiles, fists, energy blasts, nothing can stop him once he gets started. However, he's slow and plodding, and it should take him a long time to get where he wants to go, which allows the defenders to throw their tanks and missiles and whatnot at him so he can ignore it all. After all, he's undtoppable. I think that having a lower Agility/DEX than most normals fits his concept, thus he has an 8 DEX.

Now let's look at some of the characters you mentioned:

Durak doesn't really have a concept, other than he's big and strong and good at fighting. I don't have any problem with 'fast bricks' per se, since the cliché 'How can something so big move so fast?' is common in comics.

I don't know Gargantua fom a hole in the ground. Sorry.

Grond is more dexterous than the Hulk by 3 points. The Hulk has a DEX of 15. I don't see a big departure from the base character here.

Bulldozer is OOC (Out of Concept) in my opinion. Here we have a slow-witted fellow who believes he's unstoppable. Why in Heaven's name does he have 3-4 CV over the security guards who're trying to stop him from knocking over a jewlery store? Saying that all your PCs have 20+ DEX doesn't cut it. Bulldozer should be laughing at their bullets, not ducking and dodging them.

Now look at the non-melee types.

Gravitar(Graviton or Magneto) 25 DEX These are just normal not very athletic humans with powers.

Magneto has Rm(30) agility/ 25 DEX. You are right though, they're both OOC. Maybe they're Advanced Generation Mutants. Graviton has Typical(6) agility/ 10 DEX. He's a threat to the Avengers because he can fly while many of his opponents are groundbound and his (60,60) Force Field, 0 END can keep those who can fly from hurting him. Much.

Menton 24 Dex This guy doesn't even use his muscles.

And with his 40 STR, that's a shame.

Why DOES he have a STR of 40 if he doen't use his muscles, anyway?

Are you saying for some strange reason all the characters in Marvel are slower than the ones in Champions?

Many of them are. Many of them fit the concept of 'Joe or Jane normal with a superpower' and make do with a 15 DEX. Many heroes in DC Heroes make do with a 11-18 DEX (not the titleholders, of course. They start at 23) in HERO. And may of them are expert fighters (Batman, Captain America, Nightwing), superhumanly fast (Silver Surfer, Superman, Wonder Woman), technologically aumented (Iron Man) or just That Damn Good (Green Lantern, Hawkeye, Vindicator) and can meet or exceed even the high-end Champions characters.

Re: Re: Re: About Superman's "Super Speed"

Originally posted by Nucleon

 

Originally posted by Oruncrest

Superman's writers have recently remembered that Supes has superspeed and have been letting him use it on those 'more powerful foes' that you speak of. For instance: in Supes' first battle with Ignition, Supes punched, used Super-freeze Breath, punched, used Heat Vision, and punched Ignition all in the same panel.

 

Mmmh. In HERO terms, wasn't that a multiple attack?

Nope. You're not supposed to use Melee & Ranged attacks together in a multiple power attack. Also, you can't use the same power to attack more than once per phase with an MPA (3 punches, remember)

Never saw that, but I shall give you credit. The idea of a foot-running Superman is just so weird, though.

The most recent official race was commented on in Action #600, I'll have to dig through my collection to find the specific book it was in though. Superman recently (year before last, I think) went for a cross-country jog with the Flash, and at the end of their run gave Wally a Christmas present (more digging, sigh).

The DC universe had more relaunches than a PC in one year. Continuity is optional there, and I saw many, many silly things being written to be completely forgotten afterwards. I once read a comic where the Man Of Steel healed a sand-creature with a Super-Laugh, no less.

I once read a comic where Cyclops used his optic blasts to fly. And I've never seen that again. If you scrape the bottom of the barrel long enough, you can find all sorts of drek to play with.

Just look at Power Girl, one of the myriad Supermen plaguing the DCU for instance. This lovely heroine has 3 or 4 origins, each one less credible than the one before.

Actually, she's one of the myriad Supergirls in the DCU. And the last I checked, she's only had 2; The Pre-CRISIS cousin of the Earth-2 Superman, and the Post-CRISIS granddaughter of Arion.

In the most credible stories (Crisis On Infinite Earths, Kingdom Come, etc) Superman does age, albeit more slowly. Thor is a genuine immortal (who cannot age, as oppose to cannot die), a god superior to his fellow Asgardians, whose origins are far more credible to explain his immense powers than Superman's, who was just a Kryptonian among equals.

"Thor: Divine Mutant or the ultimate in selective breeding."

Question: How many Asgardians (besides his parents) can give Thor a decent brawl?

(Being an ordinary alien can carry you a long way to power in the DCU. Just look at the Martian Manhunter or the Legion for that matter. As a rule of thumb, each alien can push its own planet, it seems.)

Pre-reboot, almost all the Legionaires were exceptional. Saturn Girl was the most gifted telepath. Shrinking Violet could shrink even further than most Imiski. Cosmic Boy could (and once did) whip his weight in Braalians. Ect. About the only members who were 'equal' to his or her fellow natives were Element Lad, Blok, Mon-El, Chamelion Boy, Phantom Girl, and Triplicate girl/Duo Damsel/Triad. The rest were either exceptional members of their populations or gained their powers by accident (who, incidentally were among the most powerful),

Is Thor's Dex too low?

Originally posted by Morningstar

Giving Thor only a 20 DEX would be criminal. There are numerous examples that I won't bother taking up 2,000 words to show his speed. Suffice it to say that whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't. Like Hela's death touch, Grey Gargoyles, medusa touch, or a cosmically sized giant like Suturs who's blows can even kill gods. He has been described as "fast as the lightning he lords over" That of course is an exageration, but 20 DEX is laughable.

And to think that Nucleon almost convinced me that Marvel stories made more sense...

Thor's DEX of 20 is as good as your average circus acrobat's and gives him a base CV of 7. With +13 levels HTH, Thor can have a DCV of 20 (22 if he uses his hammer) in HTH combat (You did read the whole paragraph, didn't you). Hela Amazing (50) Fighting and Amazing (50) Agility would translate out as DEX 34, +2 w/HTH, for a maximum CV of 13. The Grey Gargoyle has a DEX of 20 and NO levels with HTH. If Thor doesn't want to get hit by these two, then he won't. Period.

As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX.