Pattern Ghost

Exactly. I thought we were talking "Young Cyclops"

No, he does the hand manipulation on the visor in the comic, and he bounces his EB constantly. Edit: He doesn't necessarily dial in settings as in the movie, but he has been shown manipulating the visor in the comics.

Beam limit on Cyclops? You're joking, right? His whole schtick is bouncing around his EB. Should change that to Gestures (he has to manipulate his visor to fire) instead. Also, on Cyke, why the huge MP with a bunch of Multi slots?

Actually, I'd drop Iceman's DEX to 12 and raise Collosus's DEX to 14. Bobby's not especially dextrous, and Collosus is always remarked on that "he's faster than he looks." Kurt would be a good canditate for an 18 to 20. I also see no reason to chose numbers like 13 and 17 and give up round offs in a low point game.

I can't believe the Man from Atlantis was left out. He's clearly the real king of the sea! Ok, so he became some monster's leg on Southpark, but... Aw, OK. I'll vote for Namor. I think he's smart enough to avoid some brainwashed sea life.

Not in the same league, that SPD 6 is a pretty big edge. All in all, if any character should have a 6 SPD, it's Cap. Just think of it as "extra attacks". Think of the rest of the Marvel heroes as SPD 3-5 with Spidey around 7, and speedsters like Quicksilver around 8. That's still a pretty reasonable range. Paying 40 pts to go to SPD 6 with NCM is kinda silly, but if you want to do it that way, he's still going to be effective. EDIT: Crossposted with Gary, not arguing with him. =)

Exactly. What I'm getting at is that he's often treated as a guy who is the peak of what a trained, well-conditioned human can achieve. He's got that extr umph from the serum, and although it mostly effects him in subtle ways, he is beyond what can be achieved through "normal" traning. Looking at the other uber-normals in Marvel who use a training-only rationale, you end up with guys trained by mystic monks in tibet and by mystic ninja clans, and other "ancient secrets" type of deals, not Joe Blow the Ex-Marine (Punisher, no matter how much he's been hyped, he still can't beat Cap or even Dare Devil, at least he never did in any of the matchups I read in the 80's/90's) or the local dojo. He's simply a cut above physically, with a few really low-level powers.

Hehe, no thinking of my uber-head buster Harland. Oh, he's a linguist and professor, too. Just loooves busting heads though. Think of it like The Hulk and Spider-Ma--Woman having a kid. =)

Uh, oh yeah, Thor would whip Supes. Just to stay on topic. =)

I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from? Wake up call: Cap has POWERS. He has the Super Soldier Syrum. The syrum in his system has been repeatedly cited to explain his: Superhuman stamina; he never (or VERY rarely) tires Superhuman resistance to toxins and drugs Superhuman resistance to environemental effects; he has been the last Avenger standing -- including those with gross physical powers -- when the team was exposed to very extreme heat, and that, despite his chainmail union suit. In the lame-a...ed storyline where he lost the super soldier syrum, his peformance levels dropped dramatically. Even though he trained to recover from the "withdrawl" effects, he still didn't attain his former power. If he wasn't super-powered, why the need to de-power him?

Why does it seem like every time this comes up, someone thinks that NCM is a hard limit? It's NOT. It's a SPENDING limitation. Let's say you like low-DEX games. Let's say you set up a standard campaign, but require every character to take NCM. Fine. Do you think your bricks are going to stop at 20 STR? Doubtful. They'll just have less pts to spend elsewhere. Given NCM across the board, you'll have made normals a bigger threat in a way, but you won't change Cap's concept. Here's his concept: If a "normal" human can go to X physical stat, Cap can go that much more. So what if he pays double? He's CAP. He's beyond that threshold of "normal" men, and into the Adonis league of human perfection. Even in an all NCM environment, Cap would have about this for physical stats: 25 STR 26 DEX (Maybe 24) 23 CON 15 BDY 10 PD 10 ED 6 SPD 10 REC 50 END 50 STN Some of thsoe stats are above NCM. So, what? He pays double. It's not like he's got to burn many points to buy some skills and a shield. Compared to the majority of the Marvel Univers, Cap IS a stat monster. He's not into superhuman range on anything, but most superhumans are in the non-super range in most things themselves. Unless they have their own title, of course. Cap has been the last man standing in many, many issues of the Avengers, and not because he was hiding behind his shield for the whole fight. Saying he changes tactics to hide behind his sheild when he 's with the Avengers is like saying She-Hulk hides behind her armor skin. Of course she does, that's what it's there for! Same with Cap's shield. I've seen Cap out there monkey-flipping big guys just like Captain Kirk monkey-flipping Klingons more times than I can count.

Of course, that kind of capping doesn't work for the character who's schtick is being a super nimble, super strong, high defense brick. =)

EDIT: This was in response to Doug's post, but a couple of shorter posts went up while I was typing. =) I dunno, Cyclops does get hit from time to time. Then, folding up like a cheap tent is his schtick. He's kind of the low level magic user/artillerist in the team. Hangs mostly in the back while the team powerhouses tie up the opposition. In more recent years, they've given him quite a bit of acrobatic and martial arts prowess as well, so they've sort of already "championized" him to a degree. As for DEX levels, a DEX 10 brick doesn't work only if the GM doesn't let it work. Setting DEX and SPD levels is the job of the GM, not the system. I think the low-pts X-men game in the other thread is a great concept, and perfectly suits the early X-men. These were all characters with a single, narrowly-defined, often greatly limited, power, and none of them could casually ignore threats from normal law enforcement or military types. If that's the power level you want, you set the power level that way. It's just not the default for the CU setting. Try pre-building some of the X-characters at low-DEX/SPD and hand them out to a group. Let's see: Cyclops: Dex 14, SPD 3 Xd6 EB vs. PD, OIF, Gestures, Side Effects (Uncontrolled, probably mandatory spread, and continuous if opens eyes w/out visor or ruby glasses on. Effectively blind w/out one or the other. Just wrap it up as about a -1/2 or so for the sake of argument.) Lightning Reflexes w/Optic Blast OCV levels w/Optic Blast. Other stuff can be added in to whatever pt. total you're playing. Keep the STR low, he's Scott "Slim" Summers in his low-pt. incarnation. If he's pre-bulletproof spandex, then his defenses should suck. Angel: Dex 18, SPD 4 X" Flight, Restrainable Enough levels with Flight to offset half the turn mode (he still has one in the early days, but he's also pretty agile) Levels with Move by and Move through. He probably hasn't developed any real MA training early on, just doing what comes naturally as a flier. DCV levels only when flying. STR should set to about 15. Defenses, again, pretty mediocre. Beast DEX 23, SPD 5 X" of Running Extra Limbs (prehensile feet) Climbing skill out the wazoo. LS: Cold if furry STR around 30 to 35, INT 18 or more. Fairly high PD and ED, no resistant def. unless bps era. Toss in either HTH levels, or some MA maneuvers and some Science and Knowledge skills. Marvel Girl DEX 12, SPD 3 TK Multi. I don't think the early Jean could walk and chew gum at the same time, so no need to dump pts. into an EC. She should have a Force Wall as one of her TK defense options, which helps with the low defenses of most of the team. Telepathic abilities, maybe a slot of TP and a slot of Mind Scan. Ego attack and Mental Illusions, not sure of at this point in her career. Colossus DEX 15, SPD 3 (he's always noted as being surprisingly agile/quick for his size) Density Increase, 0END Some Armor, linked to DI Life Support: NNB, Heat, Cold, etc. Vuln. to Electric and Magnetic attacks. PS: Artist Some H2H levels. Blob DEX 10 or 11 (if you cheese for the CV), SPD 2 KB resistance out the wazoo Very high defenses Entangle Dmg Shield, only vs. punches/kicks High STR, maybe 40-45. More than Beast, less than Colossus. Pyro Dex 12, SPD 3 Fire multi, prob. OIF through his flame thrower whatever defense his silly helmet is worth some levels with his multi Mystique Dex 14, SPD 3 Shape shifting vs. sight and touch. Pistol Some levels with her pistol spy skills Toad DEX 21, SPD 4 (maybe 5) Extra STR, legs only (or HA and Leaping) Extra Leaping Extra limb (tongue, not sure if he had tongue in early comics) Extra running Some HTH levels A couple of DCV levels Of course, with the DEX break points, you're going to get a much more limited variety of DEXs to work with running low-DEX, so at least in regards to DEX, you'll have a lot of overlap. On the other hand, you'll also have more pts to spend on varied powers. Low DEX can be cool. "Standard" or "Inflated" DEX can be too. I like having a bit greater range of DEXs available in a game and having the PCs be quite a notch above agents and normals, but I'd like to play in a low DEX game where those are credible threats some time.

Of course, only whimps wear power armor.

[Edit: No need for that post now. Nothing to see here, move along.] =)

I know some board software has the ability to wipe out an ID and all of its associated posts without killing the threads themselves. I certainly hope this one does.

Instant injection of amphetamines. There is no one approach. edit/addition: The point is, buying either CON or BODY through a focus, with the usual DNAFC, isn't abusive, so there's no reason to disallow it. WIth a little thought, you can think of a rationale for pretty much anything. We're talking comic book logic, here.

Sure. CON: CON that doesn't affect figured only prevents being Stunned. That's easily explained with inertial dampening systems. BODY: Increased BODY represents armor that has to be breached/damaged before the character takes BODY damage. Since DNAFC CON is so limited and since supers characters rarely take BODY, I have absolutely no problem allowing either of these.

Ever notice that nobody seems to have a 5 in agility or reflexes on the Marvel site? Is the number 5 magical or something? I'd say if Thor has a 4 (prob. should be about a 3, though), Spidey should have a 5 or 6.

Marvel's own stat bars, while their accuracy is arguable, do give Thor a superhuman reflexes and agility rating: http://www.marvel.com/bios/bios.htm?id=3&family=MARVEL+HEROES Thor has a 4 in each stat. Cap is at 2.5. Human max used to be around 2 on these charts around the early 90's. (They used a similar scale on the Marvel Universe trading cards, which had text descriptions of each number rating. The general scheme was similar.) Incidentally, this ties his ratings in both with the Beast's ratings, and Spider-Man's in the same categories. Thos has superhuman agility and reflexes, it's just not as apparent because he's way the heck up the superhuman scale in strength and durability. Bottom line, he's a cosmic-level hero just as much as someone like the Silver Surfer, and all of those guys tend to have at least low levels of superhuman attributes across the board, at least when the writers want to showcase them. Of course, you could just ask Kevin Bacon.

Kevin Bacon is the key...

Here's the main problem with translating Champions DEX from MSH Agility: THEY AREN'T THE SAME THING! Until you realize that, you can't really use the MSH stats for characters as a basis for argument. Champions DEX encompasses both Marvel Fighting AND Agility, and doesn't do so precisely since there are many ways to get the same effect in Champs (Skill levels, lightning reflexes, etc.)

OK, then Thor's more agile than Beast. Since Beast is more agile than Cap... Thor's more agile than Cap! See, I just proved that Kevin Bacon knows Thor and Superman. Cool, huh?

OK, here's another one: Who's more agile, Thor or Wonder Man? And by how much?

Cap just flips around more. Here's one: Who's more agile, the Beast or Cap?