Pattern Ghost

You know what crap is? Pulling a single line out of a post and going of on a little diatribe. He's a fictional character, get over yourself. The point of the post, had you bothered to read the whole thing, was that Cap could very well have anything between 20s and 30s for his stats. The point of that comment in particular was that if you're going to buy everything that DEX does up to a certain level, you're better off buyinig the DEX. I suggest you pull your head out of your [posterior] and get over your attitude.

Yeah, and all Cap fights are hordes of Hydra agents... Here's the deal: Cap has: One of the best initiatives in the Marvel Universe One of the highest CVs in the Marvel Universe A boatload of DEX-Based skills at high levels If I got a character sheet with a bunch of DEX-Fudges like Lightning Reflexes, CSLs, and Levels with DEX Skills, I'd hand it back and tell the player just to buy the stupid DEX. He also has: Mediocre defenses without blocking/deflecting with his shield A huge habit of using that shield against superhuman attacks, including ranged and strength based. The ability to run through vast hordes of agents, and take them down. The ability to make an offensive attack a panel after doing a bunch of deflections. That's SPEED, folks. If he has a 4 Speed, he'll run out of actions to abort to WAY too soon, and NEVER go on the offense. He cannot sweep agents who aren't standing adjacent to each other. He could sweep and move, though. A SPD of 6 is totally reasonable, and a heck of a lot easier to read on a sheet, and to adjudicate than a buttload of special attacks and PSLs cluttering up the place. Cap's performance is best modelled by a high DEX and at LEAST a 6 SPD. The "concept is king" argument doesn't wash when it gets in the way of gameplay. If you think the NCM rules are what to go by instead of the NPCs, I suggest you read them, b/c taking NCM is an OPTION. You don't have to take the disadvantage. What would be the point in taking NCM for 20 pts of Disads if you're going to spend over 20 pts buying abilities (STR, some DEX, and CON were noted earlier as buy ups) over NCM anyway? NCM should either be a campaign rule or not be used, and has no real place in a supers game. Also, if you want to use the NCM discussion and tables as a basis of argument, try reading the Champions Genre book and seeing what it has to say on the subject. I'll save you the effort. From page 57: Let's parse that, shall we? Upper limits of Legendary are 30 for primaries and DEF 15, SPD 6-7, REC 11-13, END and STUN 60, and higher than NCM movement. "Few humans reach this lofty plateau.." Stever Rogers was given a drug and radiation therapy specifically to reach this plateau. He is the freaking poster child for this plateau. "heroes and superheroes" I think Cap qualifies there. "Only truly exceptional individuals..." Again, he's the poster child for truly exceptional. "...is the upper limit of normal human attainment." CONCEPT CONCEPT CONCEPT.... that IS Cap's concept, in the nutshell. The NCM = 20 and SPD 4 argument is a moot point dealing with Cap or any other superhero. If you're bored and want to throw away WAY more points than you net from taking NCM when building him, that's fine, but he's not capped at 20/4, or even 23/5. Now, if you want to build a low-speed Cap, there is a whole sidebar on lowering the NCM threshold, and since Cap exceeds that threshold to the maximum attainable by normals -- the maximum a normal can buy over NCM -- you'd want to adjust that NCM threshold. Cap is the benchmark, though, and if you impose NCM on him, he's going to end up buying over in any event. There's threshold, then there's max you can buy over, which is Cap-land.

Here's a really quick shot at the character, sans Disads. (Heh, feel free to ignore, I was a bit bored and decided to build him.) Took about fifteen minutes or so, mostly time spent copying, using the skill sets in Champions 5th, and the suggestions from this thread: 20 STR 10 26 DEX 48 25 CON 30 12 BDY 04 13 INT 03 11 EGO 02 18 PRE 08 12 COM 01 10 PD 06 20 ED 15 6 SPD 26 15 REC 12 50 END 00 35 STN 00 --------- CHAR: 163 --------- POWERS 37 Multipower: Pistol, 75 pt. Reserve, OAF (-1) u4 10d6 EB vs ED, No Range Penalty (-1/2) u4 3d6+1 RKA vs. ED, No Range Penalty (-1/2) 15 Multipower: Sword, 30 pt. Reserve, OAF (-1) u1 +6d6 Hand Attack vs. ED, Hand to Hand Attack (-1/2) u1 2d6 HKA vs ED 25 Rapid Regeneration: Armor +10PD/+10ED, Hardened (-1/4) --------- 87 POWERS TOTAL SKILLS (Acrobat Set and Gunman Set, modified) 20 Martial Arts, Classic Comic Book (Combined Ranged Levels and MA pts) 32 +4 Levels w/All Combat (Combined 5 pt levels, netted 3 spare pts) 05 Acrobatics 15- (lowered 2pts, dropped redundant) 05 Breakfall 15- (lowered 2pts, dropped redundant) 03 Contortionist 14- 03 Stealth 14- (free choice, from net 3 from CSL combining) 03 Paramedics 12- (free choice, from background skill allotment) 05 Fast Draw 15- 02 WF: Small Arms 03 Weaponsmith 12- 03 Streetwise 13- (free choice, from background skill allotment) 03 Tactics 12- (free choice, from background skill allotment) 02 AK: Campaign City 11- (free choice, from background skill allotment) 02 KS: Superhuman World 11- (free choice, from background skill allotment) 03 Teamwork 14- (free choice, from background skill allotment) 06 +3" Running (9" total)(bought w/spare pts) ---------------- 100 SKILLS TOTAL DISADVANTAGES: Pick 150 pts. For Characteristics, I mostly went by Tom's recommendations based on your description, but boosted the Energy Defense since he's charged with energy. I boosted the REC to 15 as I mentioned For powers, I used the multis for the weapons and did the armor-as-regeneration schtick. For skills, I took the Acrobatics skill set, the Gunman skill set from Champions 5th and mashed them together. Some levels in PER modifiers might be handy, but I decided to put more in skills and some running. (Note, odd numbers in movement powers are handy, b/c you get the round off on the half move.) You might want Rapid Fire skills as well. With 100 pts alloted, there's plenty of room to play around.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 38 DEX figure was pretty much just plucked out of the air to prove a point about the effectiveness of DEX...I seriously doubt if anyone involved thinks Cap has a DEX that high. I have a pretty simple way to figure Marvel DEX values: Spiderman is X Cap is Spiderman - 2 CV worth of DEX Most of the really good Martial Artists are Cap -1 or -2 CV Other physically capable types are below that Slow bricks are below that (slow bricks seem to be more the exception than the rule in comics, esp. in DC) Elite combat humans are probably at or below the slow brick level. Note, Spidey probably doesn't have the same CV as Cap, most of his is probably natural, without much MA, just some skill levels from "learning the hard way." Cap would still be more effective in H2H, though he'd have it rough trying to tag a dodging Spider. So, let's say Spidey has a 35 DEX. That's pretty darn spiffy. That'd put Cap at 30. Let's say Spidey is at 30. That'd put cap at about 24. Let's go Low DEX and put Spidey at 26 That'd put Cap around 20. Of course, all you do by setting your Spidey Factor (SF) is determine how much above the normal schmucks with the 10 to 14 DEXes your heroes are. SF gives a good idea of how "norm-proof" characters will generally be. I think a good level of SF is SF 32, with a Cap at around 26-27. It gives a decent range of DEX options and it lets normals be a bit of a threat, especially en masse.

First, I've seen players totally abuse Pych Lim: Fearless. If it grants an advantage, it shouldn't net disadvantage points. Second, you need to define how fear effects work within the campaign. Using mental attacks or PRE attacks both work, but running both is probably going to be a little inconsistant. I like the idea of PRE Drains for fear attacks. It's a lot more elegant (shorter power writeup, no custom lims) than a single command Mind Control "Fear" would be. Of course, if other emotion control powers are common, then mental attacks are probably the way to go. In the case of PRE-based, the aforementioned PRE, Defense Only (-1) is an old standby. Power Defense only vs. Fear effects (-1 maybe) is good against PRE Drains. Mental Defense, only vs. Fear effects is good for the mental side of things, as is 75> Mental Damage Reduction, only vs. Fear Effects. (20 pts gets you either +40 MD vs. Fear or 75% Damage Reduction vs. Fear) Either approach works out to about the same cost for the characters.

I really like Tom's suggestions, but there's anotheralternative for doing Regeneration. The description makes the regeneration sound like more of a secondary schtick. Here's one way to buy it: Instant Regeneration: Armor +6PD/+6ED, Hardened (+14) 22 pts. Special effect is that the wound happens, but it's healed almost instantly. High Recovery: A REC of 15 ( would cost 12 pts with a 20 STR and 23-25 CON) will let you heal 1 BODY every two days. It also helps you recover faster from STUN damage in combat. With these options, you can ignore some smaller wounds, which heal even in combat, and you heal other BODY damage really quickly. You'd also bounce back into the fight pretty fast. For skills, if you have Champions for Fifth Edition, there are several combat-oriented 50 point skills packages to chose from, which should work well, perhaps with a little tweaking. Martial Block and Martial Dodge are your friend. So is Martial Throw, Takedown, or Legsweep. Pick the damaging attacks to suit your concept. A successful block sets you up to attack first next phase, Martial Dodge adds a great DCV bonus for only 4 pts, and any of the maneuvers that take your opponent off his feet put him at half DCV and make him burn a half phase to stand back up unless he has breakfall or some of the movement power adders. Speaking of which, Breakfall is probably your friend. You really don't want to be on the ground (and at half DCV) with low defenses. As to the point total, that's up to the GM if it's for a game. If it's just for the sake of practicing character construction, then 350 is a safe bet, as that's the "standard" power level and there are many PC and official writeups of NPCs at that level for you to use as a basis of comparison. You can probably fit this character into 350 quite comfortably. One more idea: No Range Penalty advantage is your friend if you want to hit consistantly, though it's a bit pricey. (PSLs may work out cheaper, depending on the size of the attack.)

First, that series of pics is a well-known hoax. The animal in the first photo had eaten a small pig. The animal which was cut open is a posed shot. Second, a 4 meter snake is in no way large enough to swallow an adult human. That's 13'. Here's a pic of a 12' burmese python, first one, with the kids holding it. Look at the head. Even unhinging its jaws, the snake could in no way get the shoulders of even one of the kids in the pic down its throat, nor would it try if it killed one. EDIT: As a matter of fact, the snake in the bottom pic on this page is a 12' burm and its head is right next to the guy's hand who's holding it, and it's not even as big as the hand. That snake probably eats medium rabbits, at best. http://home.earthlink.net/~chriscorps/RALLC/monthly.htm The following is a picture of Baby, the world's largest snake. It's a 27 foot, over 400 pound Burmese python. It's not big enough to eat even the kid in the pic with it. Again, humans aren't shaped like food. http://ahau.nidus.net/ss/home.html The next pic is Fluffy, probably the largest reticulated python in captivity. Again, even with the forced perspective in the pic, it's clear the snake isn't big enough to eat Bob Clark in the background. (Bob Clark is the preeminent breeder of giant constrictors, and his site http://www.bobclark.com is chock full of info on reptiles of all kinds.) http://12.210.130.56/GalleryOne/fluffy01.jpg Thing is... snakes are just one very big, flexible tube o' muscle. Every one of the snakes in the above pictures could easily kill the strongest adult human without a whole lot of effort. In fact, any of the heavy-bodied constrictors can be a serious threat once they surpass about eight feet or so. If you assume a fantasy snake to have similar proportions to the burmese python, which is the second heaviest, and probably the largest-headed of the giant constrictors, you'd have to go up to about 40or 50 feet to get one that's a man eater. I've seen plenty of 12' plus burmese pythons and anacondas, and none of them is anywhere near large enough to swallow an adult human, or most kids for that matter.

I agree with Lucious and Starlord. That's why I leave it at "annoyed." Some good thoughts there, but the presentation is lacking. At the moment, I'm leaning less toward inadvertant, though. Someone who's obviously as intelligent as tesuji should have gotten a clue on that after so many comments about his percieved attitude.

Hmm.. I don't think a 4 meter (about 13') snake can swallow someone whole. Their heads aren't big enough.

You know, sometimes tesuji annoys the heck out of me. Ok, a lot of the time. BUT, he does have a point. I'm sitting here trying to figure out how even the worst players could get their 300 pt party trashed by 175 pt robots. I know I can figure out how to build a 175 pt robot, especially with the automaton rules, that can whup a balanced 300 pt PC, but the question in my mind is: Why should I? I'm thinking that the combat result is probably due more to lopsided character design, or to the GM exploiting more of the combat rules than the players, than it is to the players wanting to just walk in and smash stuff. A 300 point PC should be able to just walk in and smash 175 point stuff. My 350 pt PCs can very easily smash my 250 pt agents in the game I'm running now, and none of them are really combat monsters or especially complex rules-exploiting designs. I suspect that what we're talking about here is not so much tactics as scenario design. I would venture to guess that the GM set up a complex, perhaps subtle situation, that required roleplaying, planning, etc. to solve. Tactics has nothing to do with this. (If this is the case.) Anyway, I think we'd need to see the characters in question, and a blow by blow of the scenario to figure out what didn't work here. (Not who's wrong, but what can be changed to make things work out better. Assigning blame is a pretty petty thing to do in an activity that's supposed to be fun and recreational.) What I would suggest for new GMs trying to demo the game for their group is to build some pretty vanilla characters for the team -- at least in terms of power constructs -- and then use some generic thugs/agents for the first encounter. Use none of the optional combat rules. If running supers, leave out certain character types such as mentalists, or any other class of character that relies on anything other than vanilla rules. Next encounter should be a fight against a somewhat weaker group of villains, designed using the same vanilla approach. They can be made weaker in numbers, by slightly lower defenses, or by an average lower SPD, or lower CVs, or some combination of things, just as long as the PCs have an advantage. Then, cut the scenario off at that point and review what happened. Look up any rules questions that weren't immediately resolvable in play, and so on. Make it clear that this is just a warm-up session, not in continuity, and that the players will be able to make any changes they might find handy. As the game progresses -- if everyone is still interested -- slowly add in layers of complexity. Throw a telepath at them, a single tough opponent that can challenge the whole team, add in optional combat stuff, such as knockback, etc.

I tend to think of him as more bouncy in the early years, and less killing attack-y. More killing attack-y recently, less bouncy. Of course, I'd just give him a big EB and some skill levels so he could make the most out of spreading, bouncing, and sweeping with it, which would be way cheaper. But I'm lazy that way.

I thought Aquaman's strength diminished as he dried off too? Not a huge Aquaman fan, though, so not sure on that one.

Does anyone know exactly what happened in the Thor/Spidey/Mongoose brawl? All I remember is the thing with Thor holding up the support for the building.

Hmm... I've been reading along, and it seems more like player to player animosity than character driven. Then again, this group might enjoy a more adversarial approach, which can be fun every now and then.

Exactly. I thought we were talking "Young Cyclops"

No, he does the hand manipulation on the visor in the comic, and he bounces his EB constantly. Edit: He doesn't necessarily dial in settings as in the movie, but he has been shown manipulating the visor in the comics.

Beam limit on Cyclops? You're joking, right? His whole schtick is bouncing around his EB. Should change that to Gestures (he has to manipulate his visor to fire) instead. Also, on Cyke, why the huge MP with a bunch of Multi slots?

Actually, I'd drop Iceman's DEX to 12 and raise Collosus's DEX to 14. Bobby's not especially dextrous, and Collosus is always remarked on that "he's faster than he looks." Kurt would be a good canditate for an 18 to 20. I also see no reason to chose numbers like 13 and 17 and give up round offs in a low point game.

I can't believe the Man from Atlantis was left out. He's clearly the real king of the sea! Ok, so he became some monster's leg on Southpark, but... Aw, OK. I'll vote for Namor. I think he's smart enough to avoid some brainwashed sea life.

Not in the same league, that SPD 6 is a pretty big edge. All in all, if any character should have a 6 SPD, it's Cap. Just think of it as "extra attacks". Think of the rest of the Marvel heroes as SPD 3-5 with Spidey around 7, and speedsters like Quicksilver around 8. That's still a pretty reasonable range. Paying 40 pts to go to SPD 6 with NCM is kinda silly, but if you want to do it that way, he's still going to be effective. EDIT: Crossposted with Gary, not arguing with him. =)

Exactly. What I'm getting at is that he's often treated as a guy who is the peak of what a trained, well-conditioned human can achieve. He's got that extr umph from the serum, and although it mostly effects him in subtle ways, he is beyond what can be achieved through "normal" traning. Looking at the other uber-normals in Marvel who use a training-only rationale, you end up with guys trained by mystic monks in tibet and by mystic ninja clans, and other "ancient secrets" type of deals, not Joe Blow the Ex-Marine (Punisher, no matter how much he's been hyped, he still can't beat Cap or even Dare Devil, at least he never did in any of the matchups I read in the 80's/90's) or the local dojo. He's simply a cut above physically, with a few really low-level powers.

Hehe, no thinking of my uber-head buster Harland. Oh, he's a linguist and professor, too. Just loooves busting heads though. Think of it like The Hulk and Spider-Ma--Woman having a kid. =)

Uh, oh yeah, Thor would whip Supes. Just to stay on topic. =)

I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from? Wake up call: Cap has POWERS. He has the Super Soldier Syrum. The syrum in his system has been repeatedly cited to explain his: Superhuman stamina; he never (or VERY rarely) tires Superhuman resistance to toxins and drugs Superhuman resistance to environemental effects; he has been the last Avenger standing -- including those with gross physical powers -- when the team was exposed to very extreme heat, and that, despite his chainmail union suit. In the lame-a...ed storyline where he lost the super soldier syrum, his peformance levels dropped dramatically. Even though he trained to recover from the "withdrawl" effects, he still didn't attain his former power. If he wasn't super-powered, why the need to de-power him?

Why does it seem like every time this comes up, someone thinks that NCM is a hard limit? It's NOT. It's a SPENDING limitation. Let's say you like low-DEX games. Let's say you set up a standard campaign, but require every character to take NCM. Fine. Do you think your bricks are going to stop at 20 STR? Doubtful. They'll just have less pts to spend elsewhere. Given NCM across the board, you'll have made normals a bigger threat in a way, but you won't change Cap's concept. Here's his concept: If a "normal" human can go to X physical stat, Cap can go that much more. So what if he pays double? He's CAP. He's beyond that threshold of "normal" men, and into the Adonis league of human perfection. Even in an all NCM environment, Cap would have about this for physical stats: 25 STR 26 DEX (Maybe 24) 23 CON 15 BDY 10 PD 10 ED 6 SPD 10 REC 50 END 50 STN Some of thsoe stats are above NCM. So, what? He pays double. It's not like he's got to burn many points to buy some skills and a shield. Compared to the majority of the Marvel Univers, Cap IS a stat monster. He's not into superhuman range on anything, but most superhumans are in the non-super range in most things themselves. Unless they have their own title, of course. Cap has been the last man standing in many, many issues of the Avengers, and not because he was hiding behind his shield for the whole fight. Saying he changes tactics to hide behind his sheild when he 's with the Avengers is like saying She-Hulk hides behind her armor skin. Of course she does, that's what it's there for! Same with Cap's shield. I've seen Cap out there monkey-flipping big guys just like Captain Kirk monkey-flipping Klingons more times than I can count.