Kdansky

Re: Block vs Dodge > And a 1 in 216 chance counts as worthless. That's less than 0.5%. Assuming you are speed 6, block every other phase and combats last 2 full turns, and you have one combat per session and you play once a week, then it still takes you nearly half a year to see this one 1-1-1 roll come up in a block (and probably a 6 or 7 would have sufficed anyway). Yes, that IS worthless. Sensible players rarely try to do things if they only succed on a natural 1 on a d20, and that's 10 times more likely. It only makes sense if you don't have any other option, and that doesn't happen often. You'll probably see that exactly once (or not at all) in your entire life, that your PC is without option but to block that killing blow and then you happen to roll a 1-1-1. So no, I would not consider 3 and 18 special cases. They might be, but for statistics they are insignificant, but complex to calculate.

Re: Block vs Dodge An 18 also misses the blocker, no matter his roll. No difference there, I can handle that however I want, since that's a fixed roll. I'll not even simulate it Dodge is worthless when Attacker's OCV >= Defender's DCV + 10. Block is worthless when Attacker's OCV >= Defender's OCV + 15. I suspect that block might be better when you are the underdog.

Re: Block vs Dodge Those are the basic facts. But what if your OCV/DCV and the enemies is not the same? Assume OCV 10 - Attack OCV 0 - Defender DCV 0 - Defender If you dodge, he'll get an 18-, 100% hit chance. If you block, he'll get a 21-, BUT you can roll better than him to block. (attacker rolls 16, you roll 4). True, it's very unlikely, but it's better than 0%. So there are cases where the roles are swapped.

Has anyone ever run a detailed analysis on block vs dodge? It's clear that if you ignore the "First after block" and "dodge multiple attacks is better than block multiple attacks" side effects, there is a best defensive reaction to any OCV - OCV / DCV - Combat Levels Situation. I'm planning on writing a small tool to calculate these things, because I'm interested. (I believe Dodge is a lot better than block, but I might be wrong). And I won't do it if someone else already did so.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics Most bricks have replaced some of their ludicrous strength with HA, and yes, they have dropped some things, for example, one can exchange armor for FF. Yes, that costs END. And since all non-bricks have lost 20-40 strength in the process, that's more than fair. YGWYPF - You get what you pay for.

Re: My little pointy friend or you can use some sort of permanent duplication (with maximum differences, that's an advantage covered in the duplication section), then you have two characters

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics On the topic of anecdotal evidence: I've now changed all my character/creature/weapon/power/item designs for my next campaign from str :1 to str: 2. Either it's more or less the same or it has gotten way better. Suddenly, "not so strong" main villains which just *had* to take high con and secondaries (or else they'd fall over segment 12 due to being outnumbered) lost some very high strength which was causing problems. For example, one of the BBEGs would instagib my PCs for free due to str adding to his HKA (big fat claws), but as he has now to pay for strength (and does not want to, because it's not *cheaper* anymore to have 50 str than it is to have 25), he will now only do Serious Wounding instead of Instakilling. Also, the mentalist now has 10 str as opposed to 20+ before (hey, 20+ was cheaper?! I can't blame a player for "but if I add 15 str, my character costs 1 point less, so my concept now includes "mental powers make him stronger too" in my description. I'm not taking 15 str less if I have to pay more for it. Na-ah.") and some more examples which I'm not giving due to possibly my players reading this There you go: Str costing 2 does not kill balance, all brick type characters I built are still highly effective, it's just that the non-bricks don't have high strength anymore. Oh, and I put HA at 5 points (technically: str: no figured, only to cause damage) and Martial DC at 6. Should that be 7?

Re: Time to Turn Around Even then, I would just assume you can turn at any time. Now if two opponents attack you from two sides at more or less the same time: Yes, then one of them *might* get some bonus.

Re: Power Thresholds Ehhh :/ Then... Erm... Well... EGO ATTACK IS TOO CHEAP!!! I need to open another thread!! Luckily, Ego Attack is only too cheap in what it does, and doesn't give figureds too Or well, then it would be BOCON and called "str". Hah!

Re: Just passing through Don't forget that Desolid is female, yes? Errrrhm... Back on topic. I've never seen desolid so much as a damage immunity as a Walk Through Walls power, so that works fine for me. On the other hand, if you have desolid and don't want to fall to death: Life support Breathing for a couple minutes (about 2 points) + 1" of Flying ("only inside matter") are your friend Fall into the ground and slowly get out again, and it even fits the concept.

Re: Duplication... but different Yes, I do that too

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics You point out very well what could be done in a rather complicated way to 'nerf' strength. - Do not allow things to be thrown. (or make it not easy) - Do not allow bricks to drown people by removing lakes of opportunity. - Only 1 figured stat can be sold. - HKAs can only go to twice base damage with str. - HA is a messy construct. - Ranged can not be bought for str. - Use telekinesis instead of stretching. the list goes on and on, nearly every single thing that can be done with str must be controlled. The alternative: - Str costs 2 points. That has the same effect. Instead of preventing people from getting free stuff, just tack a price on these things. Now they can rampage freely, throw cars at anyone and drown as many people as fit into their bathtub, and theoretically (if one changed con too) could even sell back multiple figureds. It's the simpler solution. If you buy str, you pay a rather steep price, but you get a huge bunch of things for it., easily comparable to an Attack MP. The Attack MP is probably cheaper too (afterall, we still get figureds for free), but then, everyone and their mom knows how str works and can prepare against it. And even campaign DC/AP limits are no problem: 45 str (70 AP, 9DC) + 3x HA (15 AP, 3 DC) gives you back your normal 12 dice and doesnt break the usual 75 AP limit on a single power.

Re: Power Thresholds Great one! That brings my concerns to the point. When I read Ego Attack, I thought: "But that's soo powerful, nobody is going to have defenses against it! Why is that only +1?" It also gets Visible against Mental Awareness -1/2 (or 1/4)

Re: Just passing through You basically propose the shapeshift changes from 4th to FRED for desolid. Which I hated. Still, I'm in favour.

Re: Power Thresholds Ok, I will use that then. Not that 2-3 points of defenses will make a huge impression anyway. 6d6 Ego Attack seems rather brutal (21 average roll, 3 Mental def, 80% to hit roll due to high ego vs normal ego and no dodge/block allowed), compared to 12d6 EB vs 24 ED (42 roll, that's 18 through defs, more or less the same, but nearly everyone has higher DCV than ECV and they can abort to dodge / Missile Deflect it, etc etc). I suppose it's balanced by the fact that every point spent in mental defenses is twice as effective as ED (attacks are half the size, defenses cost the same).

Re: Power Thresholds I just found another one: Mental Defense. 5ER states that if you buy any amount, you get EGO/5 for free. I've not (yet) found the paragraph that you always have EGO/5. Aren't EGO attacks immensly powerful like that? 50 AP limit, 5d6 ego attack, effectively NND without the "common countermeasure" thing. Wow. Yes, I've never had an EGO attack in my games before. Not my fault if no player wanted to have a mentalist

Re: Power Thresholds Teleport is also in that category. We realized the same and tried to do that for a game. Didn't really work out. It was way more complex, a lot easier to abuse (your example...) and didn't really change much.

Re: Question about character generation Eh, that's possible. Duplication it was.

Re: Invisibility

Re: Question about character generation Nah, he means: If my base form is 200, and my multiform is 300, I pay 200:5 = 40, plus a full 100 to get from 200 to 300. Total 140 AP on multiform, resulting in 60 for main and 300 for second form. I think.

Re: EGO and PRE: A discussion Now that sounds interesting. From a balancing point of view though... PRE attacks get really ugly

Re: Question about character generation It is definitely in Revised, but I thougth it's also in FRED.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics That would have a similar effect. But again, it's kinda complicated, or rather, you just proposed 2:3 (more or less), since you pay twice for the str, but the same as now for damage. Having HA at 5 points would solve te "omg, I don't do any damage anymore!" issue for misbuilt bricks. I also don't like changing base costs very much, but it's by far the simplest and least invasive change and works out pretty well on paper (and supposedly in game too, according to Thia and MarkDoc). We've tried decoupling secondaries from primaries once, but that creates huge problems: What do you do with OCV/DCV? How expensive should con be? (was 1/2 point, due to not doing much anymore), etc. Also, characters usually get a lot more expensive (since everyone already has high con + str...) and it's hard to estimate how many points they would need to compensate for this change. And yes, strength is only free if you don't need to sell back multiple secondaries (btw: why do you think this rule exists? I'd say it's obvious: because str and con are too cheap), but the problem is: How often do you want to sell back PD, ED, STUN, REC and END? All these stats are useful up to high values and there is rarely a reason not to have them. The point where they get useless (if that even happens) comes way after str has hit 60 and at that point we're out of AP limits, even under current 1:1 pricing. So no, it really does not work to argue "but you can only sell back one", because we don't need to sell back anything. We just keep the nice stats. Sure, you *can* sell back secondaries of blasterboy, but you would have to lose quite a couple points to make a difference, and in the end, it would not be worth it. CON: Why does everyone complain abou str, but not about con? Simple reasons: - First, CON gives much less for it's price. You only get secondaries, CON roll (rarely used) and defense against "getting stunned". STR gives soooo much more. - Second, CON is actually expensive. 2 points for some secondaries plus a minor effect. If the secondaries weren't usefull, you'd not take much con, as it cuts into your points. - Third, it's technically a defense. All characters just plain need it. If you have 5 CON, you'll hate combat, since you spend more than 50% of the time stunned, and you'll probably be KO'd first turn, as your DCV is halved and your shields go down nonstop. Even mooks can take you on. So due to balancing reasons, everyone needs to have con, like everyone needs to have PD/ED (be it natural, FF or armor, or even DR). Character concepts with very low con are not playable. If we complain that everyone needs con, we should also complain that everyone needs Defenses, Stun, and some kind of Attack. That's how the system is designed. Btw "how the system *was* designed" explains why str is too cheap. Since in champions, EVERYONE has high str due to comic-book roots, it's not a problem if everyone has to buy high str, in fact, that's intented. The problem arose when hero became generic and suddenly, the superhero feel was creeping into all other settings. Yeah, I play other settings, who would have thought that And I really hope that one does not have to read 60% of my posts to figure out what I'm trying to say if I'm argueing That should be clear after two sentences! By the way: Awesome MP! base: 50 points (1/4 range limitation (or more on some slots) - Drown People: 2u NND 2d6, lakes of opportunity, no range, must follow grab - Throw Rock: 2u EB 10d6, OAF of opportunity, slightly limited range, improvised focus, cannot be spread or bounced. - Throw Car: 2u EB 5d6 Area Effect, OAF of opportunity, limited range, improvised focus, cannot be spread or bounced (default for AE?). - Grab People: 3u Entangle 10d6, no range, lose 1/2 DCV while grabing, cannot do anything else while grabing. - Punch: 3u EB 10d6 no range, cannot be spread and bounced, - Escape Grabs: 1u Teleport 1", only to escape grabs and entangles, requires a Power skill roll (Strength powers). I did leave lift and leap out *improvised focus: Focus can be fragile, have OCV modifiers or just be impractical. Also real weapon included. So yeah, that's what you get for strength I suppose. Quite a nice package, even if you don't get any figureds at all. To me that says: 2:1 is a good deal.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

Re: SummonMultiControl Yep, PC finds it. Also, abilities of geenie must be rather strictly defined. For that reason I went with summon, since there is really a being being summoned. (pun intended)