Build: Rune Magic - Flight

[darelf]

ok... so, I want to build a spell where you paint a rune on someone/thing to give them flight.

 

The Usable on Others doesn't really cover it. Basically, he should be able to cast the spell ( draw the rune ) as many times as he wants. Plus, he pays END to activate the rune (as opposed to the recipient) and it should last for a limited time.

 

I'm getting kind of frustrated trying to figure out the best way to do this... is this a Transform, or maybe an Aid, instead of the Flight power?

 

I used to build powers in my sleep, but I'm getting rusty after a year of no HERO.....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Actually, this is Usable By Other, near as I can tell, which isn't the same as Usable as Attack. He paints the Rune (Delayed Effect/Trigger; Trigger is when he speaks a Command Word, or the recipient touches the rune, etc.) and it's Uncontrolled, meaning he feeds the amount of END he wants to into the Rune when he scribes it, and it sits there inert until the user activates it.

 

Poof.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

I used a Summon: Vehicle for my characters Flight (plus other cool stuff). Increasing the number of Summoned increases the number of vehicles you can add Runes too.

[darelf]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Actually' date=' this is [i']Usable By Other,[/i] near as I can tell, which isn't the same as Usable as Attack. He paints the Rune (Delayed Effect/Trigger; Trigger is when he speaks a Command Word, or the recipient touches the rune, etc.) and it's Uncontrolled, meaning he feeds the amount of END he wants to into the Rune when he scribes it, and it sits there inert until the user activates it.

 

Poof.

 

My problem with Usable By Other, is that it is specifically usable by one other. Or you have to buy an advantage to increase the maximum number of simultaneous "others".....

 

At least, that's the way I'm reading the advantage description. If I'm wrong, then it's no big deal.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

You increase the number of Others you can have it be used by with the Usable By Other Advantage.

 

There's nothing in the system that just allows you to hand out Powers, that would cause immensely huge balance issues.

 

You can use Transform to transform Someone into Someone With Flying, but that takes time.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

My problem with Usable By Other' date=' is that it is specifically usable by [b']one[/b] other. Or you have to buy an advantage to increase the maximum number of simultaneous "others".....

 

At least, that's the way I'm reading the advantage description. If I'm wrong, then it's no big deal.

 

You're a little wrong. You can do it one of two ways; either per instance of the power (in which case it doesn't matter) or increase the number of 'others,' which is also covered. Hero Designer does it for you with a simple button press, so I know the rule is there.

 

Hint: If you don't have Hero Designer, you should. Don't waste another minute of your life without it. Don't ask, just trust me on this. It's worth all twenty five dollars and well beyond it, considering just how often you'll be using it. HERO: Combat Evolved literally cannot exist without it. I'm serious. Go buy it now, if you haven't already.

[darelf]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

You're a little wrong. You can do it one of two ways; either per instance of the power (in which case it doesn't matter) or increase the number of 'others,' which is also covered. Hero Designer does it for you with a simple button press, so I know the rule is there.

 

Ok... I guess I just mis-understand the description of the advantage.

 

Excellent. ( Yeah, I bought the new Hero Designer a couple of weeks back. It is an invaluable tool. )

 

Thanks for the help.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Thia,

 

Would you elaborate on the 'per instance of the power' option. I thought the UBO had to be bought up to use it on multiple characters. Or maybe Trigger negated the need for it?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

ok... so, I want to build a spell where you paint a rune on someone/thing to give them flight.

 

The Usable on Others doesn't really cover it. Basically, he should be able to cast the spell ( draw the rune ) as many times as he wants. Plus, he pays END to activate the rune (as opposed to the recipient) and it should last for a limited time.

 

I'm getting kind of frustrated trying to figure out the best way to do this... is this a Transform, or maybe an Aid, instead of the Flight power?

 

I used to build powers in my sleep, but I'm getting rusty after a year of no HERO.....

 

This is one of the most complicated effects to build in HERO.

 

Rune of Flight Spell

[Notes: Total Cost=10]

16 Rune of Flight, Part 1 (Primary Effect): Flight 10" (20 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) - END=[1 cc]

12 Cast Rune of Flight, Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable Simultaneously (up to 4 people at once; +3/4) for up to 16 Active Points of Rune of Flight, part 1 (Primary Effect) (12 Active Points) - END=1

-18 Cast Rune of Flight, part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (28 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), IAF (Paint; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) for up to 28 Points of Part 1 and 2 - END=3

 

See the following threads for more details:

Differing Modifiers: what am I doing wrong?

Usable Simultaneously with Differing Modifiers

 

edit:

 

After thinking about is some more I don't think Usable Simultaneously is necessary to give the effect to multiple recipients. It just takes a complete Rune Casting per recipient.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Here's an alternative using Trigger:

 

Rune of Flight Spell 2

[Notes: Total Cost=9]

16 Rune of Flight, Part 1 (Primary Effect): Flight 10" (20 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) - END=[1 cc]

8 Cast Rune of Flight, Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Half Phase Action to reset, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit); +1/4) for up to 16 Active Points of Rune of Flight, part 1 (Primary Effect) (8 Active Points) - END=1

-15 Cast Rune of Flight, part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (24 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), IAF (Paint; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) for up to 24 Points of Part 1 and 2 - END=2

[darelf]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

I think this thread has left me confused.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

I reread this thread, the linked threads, Differing Modifiers on p. 277 of 5ER, and Naked Power Advantages on pp. 244-245 of 5ER.

 

Head hurts.

 

darelf, don't feel bad; you wandered into one of the most confusing areas of Hero System.

 

HyperMan, will you break out that example step-by-step with explanations, or alternately do a step-by-step of the correct version of the Arkelos example on p. 276 of 5ER?

 

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

New thought - if the Differing Modifier is a form of Naked Advantage rather than a new Power, I don't think the build works - you cast the One Continuing Charge with UBO, which expends the Charge and you can't cast it again until the Charge Recovers.

 

I never considered the UBO Differing Modifier to be a Naked Advantage until I read the Hero Designer thread; I took it to be a new Power altogether (possibly from text in an earlier edition of the rules).

 

Head still hurts.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Differing Modifiers aren't a Naked Advantage, nor is the UBO aspect of a Power.

 

Differing Modifiers are used to give the Giver and Receiver a different set of Limitations on a UBO Power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

I reread this thread, the linked threads, Differing Modifiers on p. 277 of 5ER, and Naked Power Advantages on pp. 244-245 of 5ER.

 

Head hurts.

 

darelf, don't feel bad; you wandered into one of the most confusing areas of Hero System.

 

HyperMan, will you break out that example step-by-step with explanations, or alternately do a step-by-step of the correct version of the Arkelos example on p. 276 of 5ER?

 

 

That's essentially what this example was:

 

Is this example what you mean?

 

13 1) Gift of Gab: Universal Translator 11- (20 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2) - END=2

 

-8 2) Giving the Gift of Gab: Usable By Other (+1/4); OAF (Mr. Microphone Wand; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (Batteries Not Included; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 13 Active Points of Gift of Gab (-8 Active Points) - END=0

 

Total cost 5 points.

 

I thought that Naked Modifiers cost End but HD is giving it a 0 END cost.

 

edit,

 

building it as a compound power seems to clear that part up:

 

5 Giving the Gift of Gab: (Total: 12 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Universal Translator 11- (20 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 13) plus Usable By Other (+1/4); OAF (Mr. Microphone Wand; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (Batteries Not Included; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 13 Active Points of Gift of Gab (-8 Active Points) (Real Cost: -8) - END=2

 

edit 2,

 

nope, the END of the compound power is still being based on the base power instead of the Naked Modifier.

 

Is this just a limitation of HD Dan?

 

The numbers match the Gift of Flight spell from page 276. Just replace Flight 10" with Universal Translator. As built the spell only costs the recipient END. It does not cost the caster any END.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Here's a HDv3 build of the example from the book on pages 276-277:

 

Gift of Flight Spell (by Arkelos)

[Notes: Total Cost = 5 points. END cost for Caster = 2*. END cost for recipient of spell = 5. HD figures the END cost from Active cost for parts 2 & 3 seperately but they should be counted together (3 + 16 = 19, 19/10 = 2 END). edit: Now I confused myself again. More later.]

13 1) GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 1(Primary Effect): Flight 10" (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=4

3 2) Casting GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 13 Active Points of Part 1 (3 Active Points) - END=1

-11 3) Casting GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (16 Active Points); OAF (Magic Wand; -1), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 16 Points of Parts 1 & 2 - END=2

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Differing Modifiers aren't a Naked Advantage, nor is the UBO aspect of a Power.

 

Differing Modifiers are used to give the Giver and Receiver a different set of Limitations on a UBO Power.

Well, that's what I thought too, but from one of Hyper-Man's threads:

OK...finally hammered through all of this with Steve. Here's the deal:

 

1. Naked Modifier is definitely the way to go for this build.

 

Now, the text on p.276 of 5ER (Differing Modifiers) supports your second sentence. I'm now not sure of how it's supposed to work.

 

Head continues to hurt.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Hyper-Man,

 

Thanks for the explanations! It was the negative costs that were throwing me off.

 

Well, that and how END is calculated. Still trying to wrap my head around that. I have no idea why Steve changed the rule from the example on p. 276 of 5ER... I understood that (or thought I did, anyway)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

It's a Naked Advantage inside Hero Designer. But Mechanically it's not really a Naked Advantage.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Head asplode.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

It's a NA inside Hero Designer because that's the easiest way to get the program to do what you want because Differing Modifiers act the same way - they modify a Power without being inherently tied to the Power at all times.

 

But really, don't think of them as Naked Advantages. Because they aren't.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

It's a NA inside Hero Designer because that's the easiest way to get the program to do what you want because Differing Modifiers act the same way - they modify a Power without being inherently tied to the Power at all times.

 

But really, don't think of them as Naked Advantages. Because they aren't.

 

Something else that might help (or cause further confusion!) would be an alternative to 'Compound Power' just for powers built with Differing Modifiers. This alternative (Complex UBO?!) could then be tweaked to figure the correct END cost for the CASTER of the power AND allow the entire ability to be be put inside of a Power Framework (like MP or VPP which are commonly used in Fantasy Hero magic).

 

Dr. Device's method of displaying the power is another viable alternative but it requires a lot more work* on the end-user which seems counter-intuitive to the original purpose of Hero Designer as a character ability generator.

 

* I attempted to build the Arkelos example with Dr. D's method but gave up and sent a PM for assistance from the source instead

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Hyper-Man,

 

Thanks for the explanations! It was the negative costs that were throwing me off.

 

Well, that and how END is calculated. Still trying to wrap my head around that. I have no idea why Steve changed the rule from the example on p. 276 of 5ER... I understood that (or thought I did, anyway)

 

I confused myself again on the END as well.

 

I will have to study the book and the relevant threads again tomorrow.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

This is the only instance in the entire Hero System that I know of that can produce a negative number using multipliers (Advantages/Limitations) to produce a negative number.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

This is the only instance in the entire Hero System that I know of that can produce a negative number using multipliers (Advantages/Limitations) to produce a negative number.

 

Yeah, but the negative number is hidden inside of a larger construct. It can never stand alone by itself. This is why I think we need variant of Compound Power added to HD to handle this special case.

 

The idea is not too different than the theory behind Quarks and Viirtual particles which are almost never seen without their matches.