Divine Magic System

[eepjr24]

For discussion, this is the Divine magic system that goes with Aysah (discussed at http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93703-magic-system-comments-welcome/)

 

Name:        

• Yahzeh

Source:      

• Granted

Availability:

• Ambient magic availability has some effects on granted magics. Shaman and priests in low magic areas may also have found ways to mitigate these effects.

Replenishing:

• It is difficult to exhaust the magic in an area but if it is depleted then it will affect the animals and other life in the area. Without outside aid it will replenish over decades if badly drawn down and can take centuries if it is nearly exhausted. This will likely have equivalent dire effects on the land.

Access:

• Divine influence can provide another channel for magic. When using divine abilities, the avatar of your diety asorbs the heat energy byproduct from the ability. This allows divine casters to wear armor without additional LTE.

Spheres:

• There are many beings that grant powers. They include Gods (major and minor, local and otherwise), Ancients and Others. 

Metadata:

• No personal Endurance Reserves. They may sometimes be found in nature or on items.
• All magical effects cost endurance at some level, generally increased END cost as well.
• Magic produces heat as a byproduct energy, but this energy is usually absorbed by the divine being granting the power or their avatar.
• To contact the granting entity you must have a Power skill. Power skill costs 5 points for a 10- roll, each additional +1 costs 2 points. It is possible for one person to have multiples of these skills. They are generally named after the entity they provide a connection to (ex: Call He Treads in Shadows: 11-, Call Moriqex: 13-). You may base the Power skill on an appropriate characteristic for the entity (talk to your GM) for 10 points to get a 7+(CHAR/3) roll.
• The Power skill above also acts as the manipulation skill for their VPP. The VPP is required to have the following limitations:

1. Favor (-1/4): see below
2. Divine or Domain Spells only (-1/2): the VPP may only contain effects appropriate to the casters diety or domain.
3. Change with meditation and Power Skill roll (-1/4): See below for guidelines on changing slots.
4. Many players also take variable limitations or other fixed limitations on their VPP that affect all of their spells, but that is not required as long as the spells meet the guidelines below."

• All granted powers must have at least -2 in limitations. Anything less than that can be made up with various levels of increased endurance cost. Common limitations in the system include Charges and Endurance Limitations and Range Limitations. Less common but not rare are Concentration, Extra Time and Side Effects. Least common or limited to particular entities are Focus, Gestures, Incantations, Physical Manifestation,  and Requires a Roll. 
• Because of the energy expenditure by the divine being or their avatar, granted powers have limitations on usage that are required for every ability, except where noted. Those are: 

1. Favor (-1/4): Defined as having the favor of the granting entity. Power is lost when the granting entity chooses, generally when you act counter to it's purpose. 
2. Charges (-1/4 to -4): All powers over 15 AP require charges. This represents the number of uses before you must request more from the granting entity. Generally these are per day, but can be per week or even month. If you have displeased the granting entity, they may withold some or all of your charges until penance is paid. 
3. Costs End (-1/4 to -1/2): All powers require endurance to create the connection to the granting entity, so if it does not cost endurance it must take some form of this limitation.
4. Increased END Cost (-1/2 to -10): To offset the energy expended on your behalf, the granting entity will often require energy from the grantee in the form of increased endurance cost."

• Reduced END Cost is not allowed except in rare circumstances with GM approval.
• Charges for divine powers generally cannot exceed your Power Roll divided by 3. Exceptions may be made by entities with small numbers of followers or entities with whom you have increased status. These exceptions generally come with costs of their own.
• "Changing slots in your VPP takes a power skill roll at -1 per 10 AP you are attempting to change. This roll is modified by the following conditions:

1. Poor conditions, such as loud noise, discomfort and other distractions: -1 to -4.
2. Moving up the time chart: +1 for an additional minute, +2 for 5 minutes, etc.
3. Ideal conditions, including quiet, pleasant environment, soothing sounds, etc: +1 to +4.
4. Offering made to granting entity. Depends on entity, generally speaking a value of 1 GP, 7 GP, 49 GP and 349 GP. Some dieties will accept smaller sums if they are significant to the player: +1 to +4.
5. Complimentary rolls can be made if the player takes an appropriate professional skill such as Prayer, Meditation, Commune with Nature, etc: +1 for each 2 the roll is made by."

[Steve]

I think instead of a Power skill, a deity roll would be better as a Contact instead, and a pantheon could even be handled as a group Contact. Modifiers to this roll could be handled by Change Environment (holy/unholy levels), since it seems like it should be harder to call upon a good deity while in a sinkhole of evil and likewise calling upon an evil deity would be harder in holy places. A linked bonus could also be added, so a cleric of Holy Hector could have +3 levels to his roll in one of Holy Hector's cathedrals, but a cleric of Unholy Ursa would have a -3 penalty.

 

Using Increased END cost as a prayer limitation seems like it would more than cancel any gains from having a deity soaking some of the LTE. I haven't run numbers, but I suspect it would be worse than wizard LTE losses.

[eepjr24]

I think instead of a Power skill, a deity roll would be better as a Contact instead, and a pantheon could even be handled as a group Contact. Modifiers to this roll could be handled by Change Environment (holy/unholy levels), since it seems like it should be harder to call upon a good deity while in a sinkhole of evil and likewise calling upon an evil deity would be harder in holy places. A linked bonus could also be added, so a cleric of Holy Hector could have +3 levels to his roll in one of Holy Hector's cathedrals, but a cleric of Unholy Ursa would have a -3 penalty.

 

Using Increased END cost as a prayer limitation seems like it would more than cancel any gains from having a deity soaking some of the LTE. I haven't run numbers, but I suspect it would be worse than wizard LTE losses.

I think you have some neat ideas and should be writing them down! =) I like this one particularly, but contacts really don't fit this system for a couple reasons. It would make more powerful gods more expensive to be a priest for, which I don't want to implement here. And there are no "Pantheons" as such. Gods sometimes have alliances with other like minded gods, but some never have any contact at all and some are worshiped by different names in more than one place. 

 

On clarification, unless there is something else at play (disfavor or other outside effects), the granting entity or it's avatar absorbs ALL the LTE, not just part of it.

 

I am not that worried about the END cost. Even if the player opts to take NO other modifiers besides the required for their spells they would be at x4 END level. A typical first level spell runs about 3 END, so that would mean 12 END. Using my "standard" of 40 END, 3 speed, 6 REC a cleric would be able to cast spells every phase for a turn and still half move every phase. The next turn he will have 9 END available and have to make some decisions about whether to take a recovery or just use his martial skills instead of casting. Now, when the next battle comes, he starts again at 40 END. This repeats for as long as he can get 30 seconds or so of rest between battles. 

 

The wizard does the same, casts spells for 3 phases. He uses (at least) 9 LTE and could keep casting the next turn if he wants. If he doesn't, when the next battle comes around that day, he has 31 LTE available. 

 

Say the wizard decides this is an important battle and goes for another turn at 9 LTE, that would put him at 22 END. He can keep going for roughly another two turns before he won't be good for anything else that day. The wizard can recover about 18 LTE if he spends an entire day and night resting. So over 2 full days of rest with no outside influences.

 

The cleric is surely more END efficient over the long term, although they will take LTE eventually from END exposure alone, generally more quickly than even a pure fighter will. As a trade off, they have less versatility of spells and they tire more quickly in the short term.

 

The "buff mage" that Hugh suggested could probably get by with 3 1st level buffs in the morning, which would cost 18 LTE. If they can manage a 5 hour rest period and a full nights sleep they will only be down 6 LTE per day. Which means they could continue for almost a week before needing a long term rest (again, assuming no other LTE expenditures, which is unlikely in most cases).

 

There are certainly ways for either of these systems to be manipulated and I will of course be on the look out for them. 

 

Note that both of these casters could use Cantrips to extend how long they are able to effectively cast. And any caster who lives very long will figure out some alternative to casting for when they either can't or don't want to cast. Whether that is martial or avoidance or deception does not matter.

 

- E

[Steve]

If you haven't already picked it up, I strongly suggest getting Narosia and mining it for ideas. There's a lot I think you will find useful for magic, both cleric and wizard types.

 

Using Contacts for deities was not my idea. It came from that book, but it now seems very logical to me.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I like the LTE idea for spellcasting, but I feel it is a bit too draconian, not allowing casters very many spells per day. Of course, if you are goinv for a D&D feel where casters are extremely limited in the outset of their careers, it works well for that. But in D&D they eventually gain the ability to cast a couple of dozen spells per day. What is the limit of personl End that you allow mages to posess (I allow up to 50 essence as a normal characteristic maximum and 100 as an absolute maximum at x2 the cost or 1cp per +1 Essence)

 

Using the Contact perk to be able to "pray" to a deity for a boon or to make a pact with dark powers works great, but I would council against allowing more than 11 or less at the start of the campaign and I would only allow it at specific holy sites for said deity and quite obviously only 1 patron deity per character, even if they worship an entire pantheon. Its easy enough to regulate the boons. The deity can use any power it possesses on behalf of the praying character when appropriate and since the diety is an NPC character, you the GM controls what the deity does. Unless the request is urgent and sincere, I would have the deity slap the character with a geas they have to fulfill to gain access to the deity once again (maybe even decrease spellcasting ability to ensure the player doesnt try to casually abuse the concept, thus you can have a game where the gods take an active role in the world, but players arent constantly relying on them because the gods favor those who are self sufficient)

[eepjr24]

I like the LTE idea for spellcasting, but I feel it is a bit too draconian, not allowing casters very many spells per day. Of course, if you are goinv for a D&D feel where casters are extremely limited in the outset of their careers, it works well for that. But in D&D they eventually gain the ability to cast a couple of dozen spells per day. What is the limit of personl End that you allow mages to posess (I allow up to 50 essence as a normal characteristic maximum and 100 as an absolute maximum at x2 the cost or 1cp per +1 Essence)

 

Using the Contact perk to be able to "pray" to a deity for a boon or to make a pact with dark powers works great, but I would council against allowing more than 11 or less at the start of the campaign and I would only allow it at specific holy sites for said deity and quite obviously only 1 patron deity per character, even if they worship an entire pantheon. Its easy enough to regulate the boons. The deity can use any power it possesses on behalf of the praying character when appropriate and since the diety is an NPC character, you the GM controls what the deity does. Unless the request is urgent and sincere, I would have the deity slap the character with a geas they have to fulfill to gain access to the deity once again (maybe even decrease spellcasting ability to ensure the player doesnt try to casually abuse the concept, thus you can have a game where the gods take an active role in the world, but players arent constantly relying on them because the gods favor those who are self sufficient)

If it turns out to be too draconian in practice, I will modify it. I would prefer it be too strict and be able to tone it down a bit than ave to impose additional penalties later.

 

I allow the normal 50 END plus an additional 50 at 2x cost (2cp per 5 END). Additionally they can limit the END to be used for magic only at a -1, essentially zeroing out the doubling penalty if they wish. Then if they are still needing more END (at this point they are probably fairly powerful by normal standards), there are ways for more advanced practitioners to get access to items that have END reserves.

 

If a player wants to be able to speak to a deity directly through prayer (rather than through the avatars who usually handle such mundane requests), I would let them buy the contact. It is generally going to be a 15 point for major deities, after the 3x multiplier for Organizational Contacts. I would make them roleplay getting the contact as well, it would not be something you got overnight. You would be better off just buying a favor from the church directly and asking a high priest to intercede on your behalf.

 

For small, local gods I could see it working differently. Much cheaper and easier to get.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

Gotta break this one down to more than one post.

 

To contact the granting entity you must have a Power skill. Power skill costs 5 points for a 10- roll, each additional +1 costs 2 points. It is possible for one person to have multiples of these skills. They are generally named after the entity they provide a connection to (ex: Call He Treads in Shadows: 11-, Call Moriqex: 13-). You may base the Power skill on an appropriate characteristic for the entity (talk to your GM) for 10 points to get a 7+(CHAR/3) roll.

Given you are changing the pricing and mechanics, it doesn't seem to matter much whether you call it a Skill or a Contact. It seems more like a Contact with all deities being equally useful as Contacts, so they all have the same pricing, which is not based on Skills or Contacts under RAW.

 

At 10 points for 7 + CHA/3, or 5 points for 10- and +2 for each +1,I need at least a 13- on the characteristic-based roll (a 12- will cost me 9 points if not based on a CHAR), so at least a 17 in the characteristic in question. So I guess I buy the stats I want for other reasons, then decide which type of "Prayer Roll" I will select.

 

The VPP is required to have the following limitations:

Favor (-1/4): see below

That -1/4 seems to imply it is very tough to fall out of the Deity's favour, and this will rarely be restrictive (a 15- activation roll, also -1/4, works just over 95% of the time). Assuming that's your objective, the value makes sense. If staying within the Deity's dictates is difficult, a commensurately greater limitation seems in order. From your comments, you don't want it to vary between deities.

 

Divine or Domain Spells only (-1/2): the VPP may only contain effects appropriate to the casters diety or domain.

Again, depends on the narrowness or breadth of the deity or domain. What if the caster has more than one Power Skill? Does he need separate VPP's for each deity or domain, or does each additional skill purchase open new options for the VPP as a whole, with the need to determine the skill roll depending on which skill(s) the desired effect falls under?

 

Can arcane casters also use frameworks, or does the divine caster have a significant advantage in flexibility?

 

Change with meditation and Power Skill roll (-1/4): See below for guidelines on changing slots.

Is this more or less restrictive than the standard rules? Normally, there would be no limitation for a VPP which can be changed with a Power Skill roll at -1/10 AP being changed, or for one whose powers can be changed in short order out of combat. Where a change takes hours, a -1/4 limitation applies.

 

All granted powers must have at least -2 in limitations. Anything less than that can be made up with various levels of increased endurance cost. Common limitations in the system include Charges and Endurance Limitations and Range Limitations. Less common but not rare are Concentration, Extra Time and Side Effects. Least common or limited to particular entities are Focus, Gestures, Incantations, Physical Manifestation, and Requires a Roll.

I assume “granted powers” are simply divine spells in the VPP.

 

Charges (-1/4 to -4): All powers over 15 AP require charges. This represents the number of uses before you must request more from the granting entity. Generally these are per day, but can be per week or even month. If you have displeased the granting entity, they may withhold some or all of your charges until penance is paid.

If my charges are purchased with the normal limitation, they would typically recover daily. How does requesting more from the grantor work? Is this the same as the process for changing my VPP, or am I unable to request more charges until my charge recovery period has elapsed? The former sounds like Recoverable Charges, or a variant thereof.

[Hugh Neilson]

Changing slots in your VPP takes a power skill roll at -1 per 10 AP you are attempting to change. This roll is modified by the following conditions:

 

Poor conditions, such as loud noise, discomfort and other distractions: -1 to -4.

Perhaps that is why I get a -1/4 for a VPP changed with a Power Skill roll in combat, since I will clearly always be taking a penalty to change my VPP in combat, as well as having to make a skill roll if I want to change it out of combat?

 

Moving up the time chart: +1 for an additional minute, +2 for 5 minutes, etc.

The math does not work. Assume I have a Power Skill of 15- (seems pretty good for a starting character – a 15 point investment if not based on a stat) and I want to change a single 60 AP spell (which seems pretty high). My roll is 9-, or a 37.5% chance of success. If I have a 3 SPD and try every phase for a minute (as many as 15 rolls), I have better than a 99% chance to succeed.

 

Your use of “another minute” suggests I have to take a full minute per attempt. In that case, I could take two rolls to get 9-, or one to get 10-. Or I could take 5 rolls at 9-, or one at 11-, in five minutes.

 

Two attempts needing 9- will succeed just over 60% of the time, and one at 10- has a 50% chance of success. Five attempts for 9- has a better than 90% chance of success, where a single 11- roll will only succeed 62.5% of the time. There is no motivation to take extra time. That’s a flaw in the rules themselves. This could be mitigated if a failed roll means you can’t try again without an improvement to the roll, but that would pretty much eliminate changes in combat.

 

Ideal conditions, including quiet, pleasant environment, soothing sounds, etc: +1 to +4.

What’s “in my tent far enough from the last battle that I can’t see or smell the remnants” worth?

 

Offering made to granting entity. Depends on entity, generally speaking a value of 1 GP, 7 GP, 49 GP and 349 GP. Some dieties will accept smaller sums if they are significant to the player: +1 to +4.

Is that last one intended to be 343 GP to keep the “multiples of 7” thing going? I think I am much better off with seven attempts, each with +1, than a single attempt at +2.

 

Complimentary rolls can be made if the player takes an appropriate professional skill such as Prayer, Meditation, Commune with Nature, etc: +1 for each 2 the roll is made by.

Unless those skills serve another purpose, why bother? I can get a Char-based roll of 13- for 3 points, assuming a high stat, and have a 62.5% chance of getting +1, or I can spend 2 points to add one to my base skill.

 

If it turns out to be too draconian in practice, I will modify it. I would prefer it be too strict and be able to tone it down a bit than have to impose additional penalties later.

This depends largely on player perception to me. If the players perceive the rules as “too draconian”, they may choose not to play spellcasters at all, in which case there will be no playtest. In a group which has built up trust that penalties will be toned down if they prove too restrictive, this should not be a problem (but then, a similar level of trust suggests adding penalties if something proves overpowered will not be an issue either).

 

I think your analyses suggest that the arcane and divine casters are reasonably balanced, both compared to one another and compared to non-spellcasters, based on the other parameters of your game, so I don’t see what more can be done other than playtest that assumption.

 

If a player wants to be able to speak to a deity directly through prayer (rather than through the avatars who usually handle such mundane requests), I would let them buy the contact. It is generally going to be a 15 point for major deities, after the 3x multiplier for Organizational Contacts. I would make them roleplay getting the contact as well, it would not be something you got overnight. You would be better off just buying a favor from the church directly and asking a high priest to intercede on your behalf.

Sell me on what I would get to make that 15 point investment worthwhile. Or maybe your sales pitch is “don’t bother – buy a favour from a sucker NPC who wasted that 15 points”. Of course, if the NPC can intercede on my behalf, and charge a princely sum for doing so, how much can I charge for interceding on behalf of others? If that would cause me to fall out of favour, how come the High Priest does not have the same problem?

 

I’d be more inclined to think the base skill works its way from junior minions through senior avatars to the entity itself based on your roll, especially if there is no variability in the benefits of each deity, which equal pricing suggests is the case.

[Steve]

I think your numbers are missing some items. On the END front, making a half-move costs additional END on top of spellcasting, so your example priest casting and half-moving each phase will burn through at least 39 END and probably more when you include armor weight. After recovering, they'll have an entire turn of being able to do pretty much nothing but moving and maybe blocking and dodging. That will burn 3+ END (plus armor END loss) and leave them taking recoveries during the second turn to keep from burning STUN.

 

Meanwhile the wizard and the fighter are burning through END and LTE at a lower rate than the priest. In the current setup, priests are actually a worse choice than being either a pure fighter or a pure wizard. They've got maybe a turn and then they're done.

 

I think you might be better off with dropping the increased END cost idea. Priest prayers already have an additional limit due to requiring priests obey certain behaviors, so if you want to make their magic feel different from wizards, why not use charges or maybe even recoverable charges instead of increased END? You can still have them spend END on their charges, and it would get you additional Limitations that way.

 

Prayer would be how the priest recovers their charges, which could take longer than a turn. Maybe how long they pray determines how many charges they get back. If the prayers are built as a multipower, you could put the charges on the multipower pool instead of each slot. That would then require the priest to allocate their prayers. Do they use all of their charges on heals? Do they go all combat offensive? Do they do a mix?

 

Run the numbers with all END costs for movement and encumbrance included, and I think you'll see what I'm seeing in the numbers.

[eepjr24]

I think your numbers are missing some items. On the END front, making a half-move costs additional END on top of spellcasting, so your example priest casting and half-moving each phase will burn through at least 39 END and probably more when you include armor weight. After recovering, they'll have an entire turn of being able to do pretty much nothing but moving and maybe blocking and dodging. That will burn 3+ END (plus armor END loss) and leave them taking recoveries during the second turn to keep from burning STUN.

 

Meanwhile the wizard and the fighter are burning through END and LTE at a lower rate than the priest. In the current setup, priests are actually a worse choice than being either a pure fighter or a pure wizard. They've got maybe a turn and then they're done.

 

I think you might be better off with dropping the increased END cost idea. Priest prayers already have an additional limit due to requiring priests obey certain behaviors, so if you want to make their magic feel different from wizards, why not use charges or maybe even recoverable charges instead of increased END? You can still have them spend END on their charges, and it would get you additional Limitations that way.

 

Prayer would be how the priest recovers their charges, which could take longer than a turn. Maybe how long they pray determines how many charges they get back. If the prayers are built as a multipower, you could put the charges on the multipower pool instead of each slot. That would then require the priest to allocate their prayers. Do they use all of their charges on heals? Do they go all combat offensive? Do they do a mix?

 

Run the numbers with all END costs for movement and encumbrance included, and I think you'll see what I'm seeing in the numbers.

Thanks, but what you are missing is that I ran the numbers with the absolute maximum of what they would have to take in limitations if they took nothing other than xEnd and the required Favor and Divine or Domain only. A priest of a small or local god who is lenient (read: has few followers) can even get away with no increased end. But lets look at a more realistic scenario, where the caster takes x2 END on all spells.

 

Same as before, 3 1st level spells = 18 END. Half move every phase = 3 END. 21 END used, 6 gained in post 12 recover. Net down 15. Can do that for 3 full turns. Now, they will end up with about 2 LTE per turn down from all of that, so if they do it more than once in a day, they will need additional rest. And they have charges to contend with and other limitations, but I think it works out fine.

 

Again, if it turns out to be too strict then I will adjust, but I would rather be a little too strict at the start and be able to loosen it up than vice versa.

 

- E

[Manic Typist]

I like the user of the Power skill and the ability to invoke multiple deities.

 

Have you considered allowing divine casters to forcibly draw upon the power of a deities? Either through by calling upon the favors of other deities of equal or greater power but lacks a particular aspect that the caster wants to invoke at a certain time (a greater god of shadow forcing a god of war to grant a boon, etc.)...

 

or...

 

Through an exceptional capacity for a person to engage in cognitive dissonance and genuinely believe in something even as he or she knowingly acts against the will of that deity. Someone who is capable of forcing their mind to engage in the act of belief but detach themselves from it at the same time. I would suggest this person would make an exceptional and startling villain encounter.

[Steve]

On divine magic, how are the gods created? Are they creations of mortal belief and sustain themselves upon the belief of their followers or are they made some other way?

 

Could a lesser spirit become a god if enough people believe in it?

[Hugh Neilson]

On the END issue, I think it’s important to remember that END is a focus of the mechanics of the system. A “stereotype” spellcaster in this setting will train for cardio because END and REC are key to spellcasting.

 

In isolation, see “Extra END” as the desperation play when the spell is urgent and other limitations can’t be met. So if I can't afford Extra Time or Concentration, and I can't gesture, incant or hold a Focus, I'll suck up the END and blast off the spell.

 

Given the requirement all big spells have charges, and the max is based on your skill roll, 8 or less charges will be the norm (-1/2 at least). These must cost END (-1/2 more). Favour is required (-1/4). I’m not sure I’d require increased END, but -1/2 to double it makes a total of -1 3/4.

 

That means you only need another -1/4 limitation to meet the required -2 in limitations, so that requirement is not really all that restrictive. If the intent is that every spell have the required limitations, plus a few more, then -2 is not big enough, but if you drop the “at least -1/2 in increased END” requirement, they at least need to choose -3/4 instead of -1/4.

[Wardsman]

Why does divine magic cost endurance?

[eepjr24]

I like the user of the Power skill and the ability to invoke multiple deities.

 

Have you considered allowing divine casters to forcibly draw upon the power of a deities? Either through by calling upon the favors of other deities of equal or greater power but lacks a particular aspect that the caster wants to invoke at a certain time (a greater god of shadow forcing a god of war to grant a boon, etc.)...

 

or...

 

Through an exceptional capacity for a person to engage in cognitive dissonance and genuinely believe in something even as he or she knowingly acts against the will of that deity. Someone who is capable of forcing their mind to engage in the act of belief but detach themselves from it at the same time. I would suggest this person would make an exceptional and startling villain encounter.

I am afraid I got almost none of that. Could you try again in different language? The first bit sounds like you you are threatening a god to make them force/coerce/convince another god to use their power for you? That seems outright suicidal to me.

 

The second bit sounds like a type of bipolar disorder, BPD or maybe DID? Not sure I need clinical insanity to make a good villain. =)

 

- E

[eepjr24]

On divine magic, how are the gods created? Are they creations of mortal belief and sustain themselves upon the belief of their followers or are they made some other way?

 

Could a lesser spirit become a god if enough people believe in it?

Some "gods" are created because of active belief (worship, etc). Others from passive or environmental dedication, a hearth spirit is because of the repeated ritual, ceremony and "sacrifice" made at it's altar. Others existed before mortal kind. Some others were summoned here by mortals who thought they could control them. It is not known how some more obscure entities came to be. So I guess the answer is "it depends".

 

A lesser spirit could certainly gain power and be able to grant it to others through belief (or through other means). The definition of "god" becomes murky here, since we are not talking about something that was mortal to begin with. A simpler case might be to ask if a mortal could become a god, to which the answer is also yes, although it is exceedingly rare and few would attempt it. Think of Gird from the Paksennarion series or the adepts of Kemmler from the Dresden novels.

 

- E

[eepjr24]

In isolation, see “Extra END” as the desperation play when the spell is urgent and other limitations can’t be met. So if I can't afford Extra Time or Concentration, and I can't gesture, incant or hold a Focus, I'll suck up the END and blast off the spell.

If the caster chooses to use "Variable Limitations" that is the case. But that is not their only option. I have a sample Cleric built who takes -1/2 for x2 END on the entire VPP.

 

Given the requirement all big spells have charges, and the max is based on your skill roll, 8 or less charges will be the norm (-1/2 at least). These must cost END (-1/2 more). Favour is required (-1/4). I’m not sure I’d require increased END, but -1/2 to double it makes a total of -1 3/4.

"Must Cost END" can be at either the -1/4 or -1/2 level. Also, many powers already required END, so they will not have to take the limitation.

 

That means you only need another -1/4 limitation to meet the required -2 in limitations, so that requirement is not really all that restrictive. If the intent is that every spell have the required limitations, plus a few more, then -2 is not big enough, but if you drop the “at least -1/2 in increased END” requirement, they at least need to choose -3/4 instead of -1/4.

So with my comment above, you will need between 1/4 and 3/4. I am fine with that. Casters can also take more, to allow for more spells to fit into their VPP via smaller Real Cost.  Whether or not it is the best way to restrict casting broadly is not of too much concern since it is just one piece of the puzzle and fits well conceptually for me.

 

- E

[eepjr24]

Why does divine magic cost endurance?

Because most gods do not grant things without a cost to their followers. Those costs come in many forms, endurance is one of those forms. For in game purposes, the avatar uses the personal energy of the channeler to offset the LTE they are taking on. In meta terms, it is a balancing tool that fits the flavor of this magic system for me.

 

- E

[Steve]

This is kind of a general magic question, but how does magic get taught?

 

Are there organized schools for learning magic or is it a master-apprentice method? If there are schools, do any of them give reputation bonuses because they're especially prestigious (like a magical version of Harvard)?

 

In the case of priests, how do they know what magic their deity can provide them? Do they have some kind of inspired list they can mentally review? Are there deeper mysteries that will only be revealed later on as they progress in their temple hierarchy?

[eepjr24]

This is kind of a general magic question, but how does magic get taught?

 

Are there organized schools for learning magic or is it a master-apprentice method? If there are schools, do any of them give reputation bonuses because they're especially prestigious (like a magical version of Harvard)?

 

In the case of priests, how do they know what magic their deity can provide them? Do they have some kind of inspired list they can mentally review? Are there deeper mysteries that will only be revealed later on as they progress in their temple hierarchy?

There are multiple methods, depending on which type you are talking about. Roughly, it breaks down into professions.

 

Arcane:

Wizard (Schooled)

   Full Wizard (graduate of some school or master-apprentice program)

   Hedge Wizard (some studies, did not graudate)

   Rote Mage (learned one or two spells from a grimoire or other method)

 

Bard (Schooled)

   Similar to wizard, but different schooling.

 

Sorcerer (Innate)

   Different sources for power, including time/place/circumstance of birth, hereditary, boon, and just wild talents.

 

Divine:

Cleric (Schooled)

   Generally motivated by service of their diety.

 

Druid (Mix)

   Generally motivated by preservation of order or nature. Some schools exist, some take apprentices and some come into their powers on their own.

 

Warlock (Mix)

   Sometimes schooled as a wizard or cleric, but do not complete, generally from impatience or desire for personal power. Make pacts with a greater being in exchange for power.

 

Hybrids:

Paladin

   More martial version of cleric. Generally less spells more combat oriented.

 

Ranger

   More martial version of druid. Generally less spells more combat oriented.

 

Monk

   Combines self knowledge and discipline with knowledge of the arcane. Always schooled, generally in multiple places.

 

Other

   Sometimes a rogue or warrior picks up arcane skills through a method above or makes a pact with a lesser being or is granted some power as a boon. These are less common and will not generally fit neatly into the boxes above.

 

 

In the case of priests, how do they know what magic their deity can provide them? Do they have some kind of inspired list they can mentally review? Are there deeper mysteries that will only be revealed later on as they progress in their temple hierarchy?

Common spells cross churches in many cases. Some churches will have a different version of a spell that they teach instead of or in addition to the standard. Sometimes a church has unique spells (occurs with both powerful and less significant beings) that help their cause or further the mission. Sometimes priest have to keep certain spells ready all the time (create food for a priest of bounty, light for a priest of light, etc).

 

Does that get most of your question answered?

[Hugh Neilson]

"Must Cost END" can be at either the -1/4 or -1/2 level. Also, many powers already required END, so they will not have to take the limitation.

So "costs END only to activate"? How do you envision that interacting with charges? I guess it would work nicely for smaller powers (Shield of Faith, +3 DCV, Favour -1/4, Costs END to activate, -1/4, Incant, -1/4, Gestures -1/4, Concentrate -1/2, Extra Time -1/2). I could see slapping that suite, or a similar one, on a pile of minor buffs - especially if I am casting them through a VPP.

 

And once I put Charges on a power, it costs no END by default, so I am assuming I must limit the charged power with Costs END (either at the -1/4 level, but since I have to have charges it still won't last long, or the -1/2 level).

[Manic Typist]

I am afraid I got almost none of that. Could you try again in different language? The first bit sounds like you you are threatening a god to make them force/coerce/convince another god to use their power for you? That seems outright suicidal to me.

 

The second bit sounds like a type of bipolar disorder, BPD or maybe DID? Not sure I need clinical insanity to make a good villain. =)

 

- E

A ver, estoy usando tu lenguaje a describir el proceso, entonces no es una amenaza a menos que TU entiendes que un "favor" tiene un entendimiento abnormal...

 

 

Or, like I said the first time in plain English... it's calling on the favor of a more powerful deity to compel a favor from a less powerful but more (in this circumstance) immediately useful deity. So unless you meant that followers of a deity obtain a favor (how you described this system in the first place) from their deity is via threatening it.... there's no possible way to interpret it that way.

 

So you ask your Big Powerful War Deity to compel (or perhaps trade) a favor to from a small Harvest Deity to help you gain food on the march, for instance. It's not suicidal because you've got the support of the bigger threat... unless you get isolated, or outnumbered, our lose the favor of your deity.... or any other number of interesting plot lines that could take place from the second and third order ramifications of such an act. Wars have started for far less.

 

But perhaps you don't want it to work that way, or your pantheon doesn't have "aspected" gods in the way that they are limited in what kinds of boons they can grant (beyond size/power). I dunno, I was just asking to see if there was any grist for your mill in the thought.

 

And rather than psychosis, the other process I described is a feature of the psychology of pretty much every person on the planet. If you want to see a good example walked through in detail applied to magic, read "The Name of the Wind."

[eepjr24]

Or, like I said the first time in plain English... it's calling on the favor of a more powerful deity to compel a favor from a less powerful but more (in this circumstance) immediately useful deity. So unless you meant that followers of a deity obtain a favor (how you described this system in the first place) from their deity is via threatening it.... there's no possible way to interpret it that way.

Hrm. To me, THIS:

Have you considered allowing divine casters to forcibly draw upon the power of a deities?

sounds like threatening behavior. But reasonable folks can differ.

 

Or, like I said the first time in plain English... it's calling on the favor of a more powerful deity to compel a favor from a less powerful but more (in this circumstance) immediately useful deity. So unless you meant that followers of a deity obtain a favor (how you described this system in the first place) from their deity is via threatening it.... there's no possible way to interpret it that way.

 

So you ask your Big Powerful War Deity to compel (or perhaps trade) a favor to from a small Harvest Deity to help you gain food on the march, for instance. It's not suicidal because you've got the support of the bigger threat... unless you get isolated, or outnumbered, our lose the favor of your deity.... or any other number of interesting plot lines that could take place from the second and third order ramifications of such an act. Wars have started for far less.

This has interesting plot possibilities, for sure. Not sure that players will be in a position to ask those kinds of favors (at least not for a while), but there are always kings and other powerful entities....

 

But perhaps you don't want it to work that way, or your pantheon doesn't have "aspected" gods in the way that they are limited in what kinds of boons they can grant (beyond size/power). I dunno, I was just asking to see if there was any grist for your mill in the thought.

 

And rather than psychosis, the other process I described is a feature of the psychology of pretty much every person on the planet. If you want to see a good example walked through in detail applied to magic, read "The Name of the Wind."

I don't think I would need Pantheons for this to work. As long as gods communicated and there was some form of exchange available (power, favors, whatever), it could work. I have read The Name of the Wind. Liked it, still waiting for the third book.