Magic System - comments welcome

[eepjr24]

Working on a new magic system. Here are the bones so far:

 

Magic System

Name: Aysah (working name)

 

Source: Environmental

 

Availability: Some magic is available almost everyhere. Low mana areas include Tundra or Arctic areas. Next up is places without significant plant or animal life. Middle ground is most places with normal plant and animal life. Significant natural energies (waterfalls, volcanos, hot springs, geysers, etc) will also increase the ambient magic. 

 

Replensishing: It is difficult to exhaust the magic in an area but if it is depleted then it will affect the animals and other life in the area. Without outside aid it will replenish over decades if badly drawn down and can take centuries if it is nearly exhausted. This will likely have equivalent dire effects on the land.

 

Access: Generally requires training or innate ability to access. Nearly always takes energy from the user as they channel the environmental energies.

 

Spheres: There are many spheres in Aysah. They include 7 primary elements: Earth, Metal, Fire, Spirit, Water, Wind, Void. In addition to the primary elements there are many other secondary and tertiary elements.

 

Metadata: This system of magic has the following restrictions:

No personal Endurance Reserves. They may sometimes be found in nature or in items.

All magical effects cost endurance. Even magical armor and weapons require at least 1 END to function.

LTE rules will be used in some form (details to be resolved).

Magic produces heat as a byproduct energy.

All spells must have at least -4 in limitations. Anything less than that can be made up with various levels of increased endurance cost.

 

Restricted 

Powers: The following powers cannot be created under Aysah:

Regeneration or healing from death.

Life Support vs extreme heat and cold.

[Manic Typist]

I'm interested, and look forward to hearing about the in-game explanation that drives these decisions (such as the LS: Heat and Cold exclusions at the end).

[Jkeown]

I like this a great deal. Especially the no resurrection stuff. I look forward to the spells themselves. Certainly, you've put more thought into this than I did the Maelstrom Magic System for Ravenna/Caleon/Etc. 

[eepjr24]

The exclusions for LS: Heat and Cold are due to the nature of magic and it's effect on temperature itself. I may remove the restrictions, I am still tinkering here. The main out of game reason is to prevent people from getting around the heat generating restrictions intrinsic to the system itself. Still playing with numbers, but it looks like this so far:

 

Because of the heat caused by casting is channeled directly to the caster, most casters choose not to wear armor or items that would add to that. If a caster does cast spells in armor this is modeled by adding 1 END to the spell endurance cost for every 2 DEF (or part thereof) of protection.

[eepjr24]

I could just use a ruling that LS:Heat does not affect the energy generated by the magic itself. It might make more sense. You can use it to eliminate external sources (nearby lava, desert sun, etc), but not personally generated heat energy.

 

- E

[Manic Typist]

Optionally, you could allow the LS: Heat to deal with the heat effects up to a certain point...but that if you abuse it, you run an increasing risk of exploding. The heat goes to a point where it passes from ambient temperature that is extremely uncomfortable to being capable of igniting nearby items - your clothes, your hair, etc.

 

This is very intriguing, and I encourage you not to ditch the limitations. I think magic systems are more interesting when they have clear limits, and therefore people have to engage with them and think around them to accomplish their goals.

[Wardsman]

 

Spheres: There are many spheres in Aysah. They include 7 primary elements: Earth, Metal, Fire, Spirit, Water, Wind, Void. In addition to the primary elements there are many other secondary and tertiary elements.

 

How do you see  spirit and void different?

Kind of reminds me of the tantric tattwa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattva#Tantra

[eepjr24]

Optionally, you could allow the LS: Heat to deal with the heat effects up to a certain point...but that if you abuse it, you run an increasing risk of exploding. The heat goes to a point where it passes from ambient temperature that is extremely uncomfortable to being capable of igniting nearby items - your clothes, your hair, etc.

 

This is very intriguing, and I encourage you not to ditch the limitations. I think magic systems are more interesting when they have clear limits, and therefore people have to engage with them and think around them to accomplish their goals.

I do like that. I am thinking that magic will be fine to deal with great heat (in excess of 160 degrees f or so) or the rawest extremes of cold (around -40 degrees f) but the ranges in between that are delicate and require extreme balance to modify. I'll have to work up some rules around it. I will likely go with some kind of variable effect that determines which way the slip goes, with flames one way and frostbite the other, as a side effect of the failure.

 

- E

[eepjr24]

How do you see  spirit and void different?

Kind of reminds me of the tantric tattwa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattva#Tantra

They are opposites. Life and death. Positive and negative. Yin and Yang. 

 

Thanks for pointing out that link, though, I think I will borrow some from it. Probably tie this "star" of spheres to the days and months. Maybe 14 months of 28 days each?

 

- E

[Steve]

Could a spellcaster balance their heat levels by causing effects that generate heating side effects and freezing side effects? The trick would be to find the right mix of spells that provide a net zero heat gain or loss.

[eepjr24]

Could a spellcaster balance their heat levels by causing effects that generate heating side effects and freezing side effects? The trick would be to find the right mix of spells that provide a net zero heat gain or loss.

Not exactly. Cold is not a default side effect of the spells, all spells generate heat. So to have a spell with cold personal side effects you would have to create it specifically. Beyond that, side effects are variable, which represents the nature of magic well in this case, so I would not allow something like standard effect on a side effect.

 

I might allow something like PSL to offset the additional END cost for armor wearing, based on the amount you made your skill roll by, to represent the mage balancing the heat effects. I'll have to give that some thought.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

They are opposites. Life and death. Positive and negative. Yin and Yang. 

 

Thanks for pointing out that link, though, I think I will borrow some from it. Probably tie this "star" of spheres to the days and months. Maybe 14 months of 28 days each?

 

- E

So void is similar to the Iron wind or  unlife in ICE settings/ rolemaster?

 

https://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?74097-Thoughts-on-the-Filth-(Possible-Spoilers)/page2

[eepjr24]

So void is similar to the Iron wind or  unlife in ICE settings/ rolemaster?

 

https://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?74097-Thoughts-on-the-Filth-(Possible-Spoilers)/page2

Hrm. My exposure to RoleMaster is limited to a few MERPS games long ago. Reading that I would not say the void is evil necessarily. It can be used for evil, but so can fire. It might be easier to suborn to evil than spirit, but any force can be used to further any agenda if applied properly.

 

- E

[Manic Typist]

I know that as a mage in this system I'd operate a bit like Mechwarrior - if I'm going to sling a lot of spells, it'd be great to be standing in a cool body of water (although that carries other risks).

 

So look for "heat sinks" and other countermeasures that could be abused for fun or abused for ruining fun.

[Steve]

Not exactly. Cold is not a default side effect of the spells, all spells generate heat. So to have a spell with cold personal side effects you would have to create it specifically. Beyond that, side effects are variable, which represents the nature of magic well in this case, so I would not allow something like standard effect on a side effect.

 

I might allow something like PSL to offset the additional END cost for armor wearing, based on the amount you made your skill roll by, to represent the mage balancing the heat effects. I'll have to give that some thought.

 

- E

Hmm... If cold is never a side effect of spells, only heating, then prohibiting LIfe Support versus cold doesn't seem to make sense. In a freezing situation, it seems like a wizard should be able to warm themself by casting spells. My suggestion would be to drop the prohibition against cold protection and only keep the prohibition against heat protection.

 

That said, I'm having trouble seeing how Wizards would ever participate in forging weapons or armor, since spell casting in a smithy would seem to be very self-destructive. If they can do their work after the item is cooled, then that would be fine.

[Armitage]

The Scarred Lands setting for d20 had a similar effect.  Arcane spellcasters tended to wear as little as possible, even if they were from cold regions.

 

The TV Tropes page for the Scarred Lands mentions it as part of the Squishy Wizard trope.

"Justified - magic causes the body to release extreme heat for the spellcasting, meaning that heavy armor becomes an oven to any mage stupid enough to wear it."

[Asperion]

I got thinking that artificial materials (especially metal) would be an especially effective heat trap. If any spellcaster were to wear such an outfit, then the heat and END costs could be greatly increased. At the same time if the spellcaster were to be wearing some armor based on natural materials, then the design of these would breathe more so the heat and END costs would be normal. The spellcaster does need some form of defense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Maybe wizards wear metal armor with lots of fins, flanges, etc. to dissipate the heat - that is, really cool-looking, very impractical in the real world, but very useful for rapid heat dissipation.

[eepjr24]

Hmm... If cold is never a side effect of spells, only heating, then prohibiting LIfe Support versus cold doesn't seem to make sense. In a freezing situation, it seems like a wizard should be able to warm themself by casting spells. My suggestion would be to drop the prohibition against cold protection and only keep the prohibition against heat protection.

 

That said, I'm having trouble seeing how Wizards would ever participate in forging weapons or armor, since spell casting in a smithy would seem to be very self-destructive. If they can do their work after the item is cooled, then that would be fine.

It's not just that heat is a side effect of spells, it's that temperature is also extremely difficult to finely control via magic. You can get extremes of cold and extremes of heat fairly easily, but adjusting temperature 10 or 20 degrees is extremely difficult.  And it is true that those with magic ability can warm themselves by simply casting spells, if that is their only method of warmth they will likely pass out eventually from the END usage. Much simpler to simply build a fire (mundane or magical) or find a shelter and warm it with fire or the heat energy of spells.

 

I have not gotten far into the rules for enchanting armor and weapons yet. Metal armor and weapons will probably be enchanted after forging, even if the wizard does the forging themselves to ensure that it is exactly what they want. Since there are many other media available for weapons and armor (stone, bone, wood, hide, cloth, etc) it will not be a problem in most cases. And I suspect some magical armors will be built in a way that allows heat to dissipate more easily, I have to figure out exactly how to model that. Maybe as recovery, only for endurance spent due to heat?

 

- E

[eepjr24]

I got thinking that artificial materials (especially metal) would be an especially effective heat trap. If any spellcaster were to wear such an outfit, then the heat and END costs could be greatly increased. At the same time if the spellcaster were to be wearing some armor based on natural materials, then the design of these would breathe more so the heat and END costs would be normal. The spellcaster does need some form of defense.

There may be some cultures that have warrior mages with mundane armor built specifically to help dissipate heat. These would likely be low DEF (1-3) and more expensive than their metal and leather counterparts. Probably also easier to damage and harder to maintain.

 

There will also be magical armors, as I mentioned in a post above. Perhaps with REC, only for recovering END lost to spell heat. And also mages will have access to spells that provide defense.

 

- E

[eepjr24]

Maybe wizards wear metal armor with lots of fins, flanges, etc. to dissipate the heat - that is, really cool-looking, very impractical in the real world, but very useful for rapid heat dissipation.

Possibly something for a very strong race that uses magic. Not just unpractical, but heavy and not easy to move in. Possible, though, maybe for giants, ettin-types, etc.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

Looking for loose ends on which to tug, since that tends to happen in many groups…

 

How fast have we figured out ways to dissipate heat in modern electronics? How long has magic been around, and why have the wizards (traditionally highly intelligent) not developed techniques to deal with this heat?

 

It seems we are taking for granted that items can be enchanted. Does the heat arise as a side effect of using magic, or from casting spells?

 

The former would suggest that using a Magic Sword generates heat, meaning the warrior has the tough choice of using that powerful magic sword, OR wearing his armor, since using magic while wearing armor is not viable.

 

The latter suggests combat magic would lean to enchanting objects (maybe while standing in a body of cool water ) for later use in combat, since the spellcaster can armor up once the spells are cast and use his potions, wands, scrolls, etc. in combat, secure in the knowledge that the heat generated when he cast the spells to create these objects has long since dissipated.

 

If we can enchant items now, and not suffer the ill effects of heat later when benefiting from the enchantment, why don’t wizards enchant that “nNot just unpractical, but heavy and not easy to move in” to be lightweight and easy t move in, as well as making all those flanges and fins more durable, and perhaps even retractable, to make this heat dissipation armor practical?

 

Seems like long duration spells would be nice too – I can put on my armor and sword after I cast my Strength of an Ogre, Hardiness of Troll, Grace of the Cat, Faerie Flight, Uncanny Dodge and Deadly Aim spells (augmenting STR, CON, STUN, BOD, END, DEX, DCV and OCV for the whole day, one for each of myself and my teammates, plus giving them all the ability to fly for the day). I’ll enhance the armor’s defense and the sword’s sharpness (DCs) too.

 

If the heat continues as long as the spell does, a long duration innocuous spell seems like just the thing to cast on my enemies. Hey, if he’s struck by lightning, the electrical energy will dissipate harmlessly – too bad we’re not in a lighting storm and he’s in heavy armor – sweat it out, buddy!

 

Since a byproduct of magic is always high levels of heat, wouldn’t spells intended to create high levels of heat (maybe a Sunstroke spell to exhaust my enemies) be easier to cast/more effective?

 

Maybe my wizard has some Efreeti blood in his ancestry, making him especially resistant to heat. That sounds like a cool character concept, don’t you think? Just being adapted to desert or rainforest conditions argues for similar heat resistance, so maybe the best wizards come from such environments?

[eepjr24]

The most basic way they have developed to prevent heat build up is to not trap heat. That is much more effective than trying to dissipate it after it has already been trapped (convection versus conduction or radiation). 

 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatra.html

 

Heat energy is generated by channeling magic. That includes basically any use of magical power, whether a spell, innate ability, magical items, etc.

 

Energy use for enchanted items is split. Part of the heat energy is expended when the object is created and part whenever it is used. A more skilled enchanter can manipulate this ratio to be lower when the items is used and make the item more valuable in that way. For the most minor effects (+1 to OCV, +1 DC, etc) the effect can be reduced to the point of not being noticeable by a skilled practitioner. Some single use items (potions, perhaps others) generate nearly all of their heat energy during creation.

 

As to armor with innate heat reduction, it gets tricky since it appears that the due to the innate properties of magic itself making SMALL temperature adjustments is much more difficult than large temperature adjustments. Mages have struggled with this problem for decades and don't yet have an answer that is satisfactory. 

 

Magic items would be more common if they did not require a huge amount of time to create. The time to create them can be reduced through use of higher quality materials, but that also raises the price making them less than common. And there is competition from non-adventurers who prefer magically enchanted lighting and other innovations to weaponry.

 

Longer effect buffs are a good reason to have a mage along. But they are seldom willing to use up the great majority of their endurance for the day in this manner. One aspect I have not yet worked out is exactly how LTE will be implemented for mages, but it will be. In combination with the campaign default characteristic maxima that will serve as a limit to how much magic can be channeled in a period without completely exhausting the caster. And for your fighter/mage who has spent points learning the sword, armor familiarity, bumped skill levels, etc, he will have to make some trade offs for how many spells he can know and how much he wants to affect his ability to use END for fighting.

 

The by-product heat from casting is easier thought of as more like friction heat. It passes through the caster as a vessel and generates heat as it passes through. That does not affect the amount of heat the spells target feels.

 

Certainly you could create a spell that generates heat for you opponents through a spell, but remember that this is also costing you END and LTE. And many dormant effects will only cause heat when used, so electrical shield spell would only use END when struck by electricity. See my posts in the rules forum with Steve to get a better idea of where that is going.

 

If the player can come up with a good background to make them a more effective caster and is willing to pay the points for the resulting race package, I have zero problems with that. I have not yet gotten as far as races for this setting, so I may consider creating something similar to what you suggest there.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

The most basic way they have developed to prevent heat build up is to not trap heat. That is much more effective than trying to dissipate it after it has already been trapped (convection versus conduction or radiation). 

 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatra.html

 

Heat energy is generated by channeling magic. That includes basically any use of magical power, whether a spell, innate ability, magical items, etc.

I'm always nervous using physics to explain magic. It tends to be "physics applies until I don't want to apply, and then It's Magic becomes adequate explanation".

 

Energy use for enchanted items is split. Part of the heat energy is expended when the object is created and part whenever it is used. A more skilled enchanter can manipulate this ratio to be lower when the items is used and make the item more valuable in that way. For the most minor effects (+1 to OCV, +1 DC, etc) the effect can be reduced to the point of not being noticeable by a skilled practitioner. Some single use items (potions, perhaps others) generate nearly all of their heat energy during creation.

Who has to be skilled to reduce the impact when used, the caster of the spell or the user of the item? If I can avoid the negative effects at usage, why would I not spend my energy creating magic items (eg. potions) that I can use later, rather than casting the spells when I can't easily mitigate the byproduct of the casting? That is, I won't cast "Flaming Breath" in combat (and overheat myself), I'll make and carry several potions that each allow me to use Flaming Breath for a minute or so when I consume them, and avoid the heat issue in combat.

 

As to armor with innate heat reduction, it gets tricky since it appears that the due to the innate properties of magic itself making SMALL temperature adjustments is much more difficult than large temperature adjustments. Mages have struggled with this problem for decades and don't yet have an answer that is satisfactory.

I don't want the magic to dissipate the heat. I want it to make the armor less encumbering, more sturdy, etc. so its non-magical heat dissipation attachments can be practical to wear and haul around. Similarly, if I can't dispel heat directly, maybe I can build conduits into my armor and Create Water to flow through them and more rapidly cool both me and my armor.

 

Longer effect buffs are a good reason to have a mage along. But they are seldom willing to use up the great majority of their endurance for the day in this manner.

If I have the choice between using my magical "horsepower" on long-lasting buffs, then wearing heavy armor, or wearing no armor and using my horsepower up on spells in combat, I'm thinking those buffs are starting to look pretty good. But I also like those potions!

 

And for your fighter/mage who has spent points learning the sword, armor familiarity, bumped skill levels, etc, he will have to make some trade offs for how many spells he can know and how much he wants to affect his ability to use END for fighting.

Another great reason to buff the skilled fighter, rather than use magic on myself, isn't it?

 

The by-product heat from casting is easier thought of as more like friction heat. It passes through the caster as a vessel and generates heat as it passes through. That does not affect the amount of heat the spells target feels.

What about a spell than enchants an item he is carrying? You said above that an enchanted object will generate heat when used. A skilled user can mitigate that heat to some extent, you indicate, but presumably a skilled user can choose to NOT mitigate that heat as well.

 

If the player can come up with a good background to make them a more effective caster and is willing to pay the points for the resulting race package, I have zero problems with that. I have not yet gotten as far as races for this setting, so I may consider creating something similar to what you suggest there.

Presumably, whatever aspect of magic causes it to generate that heat which makes armor impractical is built in as a limitation on magical abilities. "Paying the points" is then no different from "not taking the limitation", so all I need is a background that justifies not taking the limitation, at least as I read it.

[Steve]

If all magical effects cost Endurance, a minimum of one point, even things like armor, does that then mean that magical armor worn by a fighter could be even more tiring than regular armor? Does that mean that drinking a potion or using a magic ring causes Endurance loss to the user?

 

If armor generates both heat and Endurance cost to the wearer during use, then buffs cast by a spellcaster on the fighter are much better than enchanting armor.

 

Is there any sort of channeled divine magic that works differently? If a wizard risks self-immolation, does a cleric have the same issues? If "clerical" magic is made up of spells that only the faithful are taught instead of channeled from a divinity, then clerics would also likely be unarmored types.

 

Do Active Points determine the heating level? How does it work? It might be that some spells are more efficient in terms of heating, so perhaps variants of "Increased END Cost" and "Reduced END Cost" could be used in spells, like "Increased Heat Effect" and "Reduced Heat Effect" in addition to END cost advantages and limitations.