question about stacking abilities

[ashuramarsh]

Is it possible to stack a HTH attack with a super power and martial maneuver.

 

For example, a person kicks for 5d6 damage, plus has a super power that is an HA +6d6 plus has martial training with a martial strike in unarmed combat. The super power is simply a chi effect to the kick. Would this stack or would the chi effect be considered a 'weapon' even though its an unarmed strike?

 

[Hyper-Man]

Simple answer. Yes.

Otherwise how would HTH weapons built with HA work?

 

Complex answer. Yes, but there may be more to it.

If the HA(Hand to Hand Attack) has any Advantages that affect Damage (example: Armor Piercing) then the way STR gets stacked is affected.

 

HM

[ashuramarsh]

Thanks. I found info under the HTH weapon power in the book. It has autofire, so not sure hwo it would affect that.

[Tasha]

Basically everything stacks in Hero, unless you choose to limit the ability to not stack. Remember you have complete control of what does and doesn't stack in the system.

 

ie Strength Minimums on weapons is a way to say X amount of strength doesn't add to the damage of this weapon. (it also means that someone has to have a particular strength to use the item).

[Christopher]

Thanks. I found info under the HTH weapon power in the book. It has autofire, so not sure hwo it would affect that.

That is not exactly one of the easier parts, but at least it is not quite as hard as Adjustment powers.

 

In Hero you can measure an attack in "Damage Classes". A 12d6 Blast, 4D6 HTH attack+8D6 STR and a 4D6 Killing attack all have 12 Damage Classes (DC). Generally every 5 Active Points is a damage class. Advantages are included into that, mostly:

Not all Advantages affect how hte power hits or deals damage. Reduced Endurance for example does not. But Autofire and Area of Effect does.

 

Step by step:

0. Find out how many DC to add in total from all sources. Just do it in one go. All sources usually give what they add in DC, Maneuvers and Combat Skill Levels are way up on that list.

1. Figure out the total Advantage value of Advantages that "Affect DC calculation".

2. Find the proper column for that summed advantage in the tables on 6E1 462 and the number of dice you throw

3. Look to the left how many damage classes that is.

4. Add the damage classes for the source

5. Go right to the Advantage Column again. That is how many dice to throw with that Basepower, these advantages and that many added Damage Classes.

6. Heroic Level games are prone to add a DC cap. Usually twice the base damage. In 6E that limit is part of both the "Real Weapon" and "STR Minimum" Limitations.

 

You can often shortcut that a bit:

With +1/2 DC affecting Advantages, every 15 AP equals 2D6 Normal Damage. With killing damage you want to keep to multiples of 3 whenever possible.

Try to do the calculation in DC and things should keep manageable.

 

For a full calculation we would need to know:

Exact build of the power (all advantages).

Exact source(s) of additional DC.

[ashuramarsh]

Basically this:

Lightning Leg Kick:  HA +4d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/2), Autofire (10 shots; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), All Shots Versus The Same Target (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With [punch] (-1/4) (shsould change this to Can only be used with Kick)

 

character STR 25

 

and is trained in martial arts

Kick:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 11d6 Strike

[Hyper-Man]

When I built something similar for my rookie version of The Flash I noted it on the build as follows:

 

STR 20

Speedster Martial Arts
4)   Passing Strike   1/2 Phase,  +1 OCV,  +0 DCV,  4d6 +v/10; FMove

Speed Force VPP
22) Flurry of Superspeed Punches:  Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Autofire (5 shots; 6e damage prorating rules mean that STR and Manuever Damage adds at 2/3 the normal rate (15 STR adds +2DC, Move By adds +1DC per 15m); +1/2), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; 2 END per Punch; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) Real Cost: 40
Notes: Reduced Endurance on HA does not affect END cost of STR used. Total END cost is 4 per Punch. 

END 2

 

 

So when looking at your example:

Basically this:

Lightning Leg Kick:  HA +4d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/2), Autofire (10 shots; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), All Shots Versus The Same Target (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With [punch] (-1/4) (shsould change this to Can only be used with Kick)

 

character STR 25

 

and is trained in martial arts

Kick:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 11d6 Strike

 

The 11d6 base Kick damage indicates that there are 2 Martial Damage Classes meaning that he gets a total of +6DC from performing at Kick.

The Autofire 10 (+1) on the HA means that according to the Damage Prorating rules STR and Maneuver Damage will add at 1/2 the normal rate (20 STR adds +2DC, Martial Kick adds +3DC) for a combined total 9d6 Autofre 10 Kick.  END for STR will be 2 per shot before considering the END cost of the HA itself.

 

HM

[ashuramarsh]

Thanks. Food for thought. Really have to think about the damage. At first the idea of 15d6 per kick was like, whoa.

 

Do you have the reference for those prorating rules?

[Surrealone]

At first the idea of 15d6 per kick was like, whoa.

It should still be like, 'whoa'...

 

For comparison:

• Doing 15d6 with raw STR (and nothing else) would require a 75 STR.
• 15d6 equates to 15 damage classes (DCs).  A surface-to-air missile is typically a 4d6 RKA ... which translates to 12 DC's.  i.e. 15d6 per kick is stronger than a surface-to-air missile impact ...per kick.
• 15d6 will do 15 BODY on average, which is enough to:
  • Destroy a 7 BODY, 5 DEF metal fire door in a single kick
  • Pulverize a 5 DEF/10 BODY boulder in a single kick
  • Single kick through all but the strongest of armoured walls (i.e. 13 DEF, 7 BODY -- which would take 3 kicks).

You get the idea.  Heck, a metal safe door that's 10 DEF and 9 BODY could only withstand two such 15d6 kicks...

[ashuramarsh]

Yeah I see. The game I am currently in most people deal out that much damage on average. Mine kinda falls behind in that department, well in combat. Averages thus far being about 15d6 damage wise with OCVs in the 10-12 range.

 

I can push out a 15d6 blast buts costs me plenty of endurance to do that and my OCV is only around 7. But being a power pooler is expensive.

[Christopher]

Yeah I see. The game I am currently in most people deal out that much damage on average. Mine kinda falls behind in that department, well in combat. Averages thus far being about 15d6 damage wise with OCVs in the 10-12 range.

 

I can push out a 15d6 blast buts costs me plenty of endurance to do that and my OCV is only around 7. But being a power pooler is expensive.

Sounds like either the GM did not realsie there are Caps comming with each powerlevel, or you picked a unusually high power level (we asume 400 Points on all build questions).

Pointbased systems like Shadowrun and Hero need caps more then point totals, as they help you gauge what is "good enough" quickly.

[Hyper-Man]

Thanks. Food for thought. Really have to think about the damage. At first the idea of 15d6 per kick was like, whoa.

 

Do you have the reference for those prorating rules?

 

From 6e2 page 100:

Adding Damage To Attacks With Advantages

Adding damage becomes a little more complicated if the attack has Advantages that directly affect how the victim takes damage. (See 6E2 98 for a suggested list of these Advantages.) First, calculate the Damage Classes in the attack, using the rules on 6E2 96. The Damage Class Table on 6E2 97, make this an easy task in most cases, but you may have to do some quick calculating for heavily-Advantaged attacks and other unusual situations. (If possible, do this in advance so you don’t slow down the game.)

 

Second, add damage according to the rules below. You can use the accompanying Damage Class Quick-Reference Table to quickly determine how much damage a character does with an Advantaged Normal Damage or Killing Damage attack. Add up the total Advantages, then find the appropriate column. Go down the column until you locate the attack’s dice of damage. Then count one step down the column for each +1 DC, and that tells you the final damage of the Advantaged attack plus added DCs.

 

 

COMBAT SKILL LEVELS, MANEUVERS, AND MOVEMENT

Martial Maneuvers, Haymakers, Combat Skill Levels, and velocity add damage at their usual rate — for example +4 DCs for a Haymaker, +1 DC for 2 CSLs, or velocity/6 in DCs. However, since the Advantages affect how you determine the Damage Classes in the attack, these methods have less impact than they would on an un-Advantaged attack.

 

This rule also applies in Heroic campaigns to damage added when a character’s STR exceeds the STR Minimum of a weapon that has Advantages that affect damage.

 

Examples: Chan Hseng wields a knife (HKA ½d6, Armor Piercing). He uses his Martial Strike (+2 DCs) to increase the damage done by the knife. An HKA ½d6 attack is normally two Damage Classes, so adding +2 DCs would make it a 1d6+1 attack. But this one is AP, so Chan consults the Damage Classes Quick-Reference Table and discovers that adding +2 DCs to an HKA ½d6 with a +¼ Advantage makes it an HKA 1d6.

 

Smashtacular has the Advantage Double Knockback (+½) on his 40 STR. He decides he’s going to Haymaker his punch (Strike). Haymaker adds +4 DCs. With 40 STR he does 8d6 damage, which is 8 DCs, so if it weren’t Advantaged he’d do a 12d6 Haymaker. But he has to account for the +½ Advantage, so he consults the Damage Classes Quick-Reference Table. He finds 8d6 in the +½ column and counts four steps down for adding +4 DCs. That tells him he does 10½d6 damage with his Haymakered punch. Rogash the Swift, who can move 20m, does a Move Through with his spear (HKA 2d6, Armor Piercing). A Move Through adds velocity/6 in DCs, so he can add +3 Damage Classes due to movement. Furthermore, the spear has a STR Min 10 and he’s STR 30, so he can add another +1 DC from STR (remember, his STR is halved for these purposes when performing a Move Through with a weapon). Looking at the Damage Class Quick-Reference Table’s +¼ column, he finds that he does HKA 3d6 — the entry in the table four steps down from 2d6.

 

STRENGTH

For purposes of the Adding Damage rules, when a character uses an Advantaged HA or Advantaged HKA, that attack is the base damage. STR adds damage at the rate of +1 DC per 5 STR used, following the rules above.

 

Example: Spirit Dragon (STR 20) knows the Fiery Phoenix Fist technique, which lets him surround his fist with mystic flame (and thus greatly increases the power of his punch). The Fiery Phoenix Fist is an HA +8d6, Armor Piercing, Penetrating. Those two Advantages are worth +¾ total, so when Spirit Dragon adds the +4 DCs from using his 20 STR with the HA, he does 10d6 damage.

 

 

 

HM

[ashuramarsh]

Thanks will be helpful.

[Hyper-Man]

Thanks will be helpful.

 

The book description can be confusing.  The way I remember it is to figure the total of the Advantages that modify damage (don't count Reduced END for example) and add 1 and multiply by 5 to get the rate that STR adds 1 Damage Class.  So in the case of the last book example of a 8d6 HA with AP and Penetrating (+3/4) I convert that to 1.75 and multiply by 5 to get 8.75 as the amount of STR it takes to add +1d6 of extra damage to the advantaged HA (it would take 35 STR to add +4d6).

 

Damage affecting Advantages that total +1, +1/2 and +1/4 are much easier breakpoints to remember as they mean that extra STR adds damage at 1/2, 2/3 and 4/5 the normal rate respectively. 

 

HM

[L. Marcus]

If you have a calculator, it might be quicker to count up all the added DCs, then divide by (1 + [value of damage-affecting Advantages]). Round down. I just thought of this, and I think it ought to work, but am not sure.

[ashuramarsh]

Sounds like either the GM did not realsie there are Caps comming with each powerlevel, or you picked a unusually high power level (we asume 400 Points on all build questions).

Pointbased systems like Shadowrun and Hero need caps more then point totals, as they help you gauge what is "good enough" quickly.

 

Nah, I think they like powergaming to some extent, which has never really been my forte. However, they believe in making things as efficient as possible by the rules (whether they say yes or no to an idea specifically), which i feel when they create characters its more a lawyers view of the rules rather than the intent. But in some ways its ok, i mean really a 90 point active limit on a VPP is really limiting.

[Cantriped]

90 APs isn't really that limited... Given 90 APs to spend however I want, I could kill everyone in Los Angeles or New York in a few hours using change environment, then summon a small army of zombies from their frozen, lifeless corpses. Most modern military weapons can be built on 60 APs or less, and most earlier weapons fall between 30 and 45 APs. 90 APs will net you attacks that can kill most normal people instantly, or cause wide spread destruction. 120 APs (or more) can build doomsday devices and weapons of mass destruction, or do things like blanket cities in persisting (if not eternal) darkness. 180 APs results in destruction equivalent to one of One-Punch Man's normal punches (which destroy entire mountain ranges, vaporize asteroids, or split the atmosphere). It is worth noting a +5 APs represents a doubling of raw "force" or "power" in the real world  (regardless of whether you are adding those +5 APs to 10 STR or 90 STR).

[Christopher]

The book description can be confusing.  The way I remember it is to figure the total of the Advantages that modify damage (don't count Reduced END for example) and add 1 and multiply by 5 to get the rate that STR adds 1 Damage Class.  So in the case of the last book example of a 8d6 HA with AP and Penetrating (+3/4) I convert that to 1.75 and multiply by 5 to get 8.75 as the amount of STR it takes to add +1d6 of extra damage to the advantaged HA (it would take 35 STR to add +4d6).

 

Damage affecting Advantages that total +1, +1/2 and +1/4 are much easier breakpoints to remember as they mean that extra STR adds damage at 1/2, 2/3 and 4/5 the normal rate respectively. 

 

HM

Just a minor Nitpick: "The rate at wich STR adds 1 DC" is not the same as "the rate at wich STR adds 1D6". Indeed that is the core of the problem of doing this math

It might be easier to simply think in dice/damage increments added as HM tells in his post.

 

But as he and I said, this is not exactly one of the easier parts of Hero.

 

Nah, I think they like powergaming to some extent, which has never really been my forte. However, they believe in making things as efficient as possible by the rules (whether they say yes or no to an idea specifically), which i feel when they create characters its more a lawyers view of the rules rather than the intent. But in some ways its ok, i mean really a 90 point active limit on a VPP is really limiting.

Generally I consider Hero unsuiteable for lone Powergamers/Rules lawyers. But in a group it can work. There is a set of "rule 0" in the "Hero Philosophy" section. One says: "Fun and Gamebalance take precedence over anything else written in this book." And that even comes before how you even make hit/skill rolls.

[Hyper-Man]

Yeah. I noticed that inconsisteny in my Flash build (rate of +DC vs +D6) I'll edit at some point

 

HM

[ashuramarsh]

90 APs isn't really that limited... Given 90 APs to spend however I want, I could kill everyone in Los Angeles or New York in a few hours using change environment, then summon a small army of zombies from their frozen, lifeless corpses. Most modern military weapons can be built on 60 APs or less, and most earlier weapons fall between 30 and 45 APs. 90 APs will net you attacks that can kill most normal people instantly, or cause wide spread destruction. 120 APs (or more) can build doomsday devices and weapons of mass destruction, or do things like blanket cities in persisting (if not eternal) darkness. 180 APs results in destruction equivalent to one of One-Punch Man's normal punches (which destroy entire mountain ranges, vaporize asteroids, or split the atmosphere). It is worth noting a +5 APs represents a doubling of raw "force" or "power" in the real world  (regardless of whether you are adding those +5 APs to 10 STR or 90 STR).

Oh I mean the cost of the VPP not the power points within it. Mine is only about 80 at this point. My powers can keep up to a degree with the others, but I am mainly finesse focused on things like reduced end and such. Yeah I know 90 points in the pool is a lot, I was looking at the active point cost of the VPP itself.