How powerful are the Seven Planetary Demons?

[AlgaeNymph]

Specifically, I'm speaking of the patrons of Astralle (Champions Villains 2; p.182-185).  Are they greater demons (Bestiary; p.72, 77) or demon princes (Bestiary, p.90-97)?  Or something else?

 

And yes, I want something more substantial than "whatever you need for your game."  : p

[Derek Hiemforth]

As far as I know, they've never been formally statted up for Champions in a published book.  Astralle first appeared, along with the description of her deal with the seven demons, in The Ultimate Super Mage by @DShomshak back in the mid-1990s.  He might have some thoughts...

[DShomshak]

A 4th ed. version of Aratron, the Demon of Saturn, appears on p. 94 of Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies. That version is 335 points, at a time when PCs supposedly began at 250; but the standard for supervillains was already well beyond that. Since each edition brought further point inflation, a 6th ed Aratron should probably be about 600 points for "an intermediate power demon lord who might be summoned as a powerful wizard's enforcer." This would still be well below the 950-point Greater Demon in the 5th ed HERO System Bestiary, and far below the Demon Princes in that book, but I have a different design theory and esthetic in these matters.

 

As a point of unmitigated pedantry, the grimoire that describes Aratron et al, the Arbatel of Magic, calls them Olympian Spirits rather than demons, and claims to be a work of White Magic. In making them demons, I was guided by three principles: Arthur Edward Waite's observation that the methods and goals of supposed White Magic and Black Magic grimoires tend to be identical; that I didn't want to try explaining Olympian Spirits or creating a Champions Universe role or explanation for them; and that I could do something cool with a set of Planetary Demons, such as creating Astralle. The Seven are, shall we say, a creative misinterpretation of the source material.

 

Since writing Creatures of the Night, though, I've learned more about Hermetic magical theory. A separate class of planetary spirits would actually work quite well. Fitting them into the  of the CU mightky, though. The best home for them, since Dante's Divine Comedy portrayed a Heaven mapped onto the planetary spheres of Ptolemaic astronomy.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

A while back I was helping a player of Champions Online brainstorm a new character derived from the Zodiac Working. She wanted an aggressive super with a warrior heritage, but didn't want to deal with a father who was a preeminent demon like Baphomet. Because of the descriptions of the spells from each planetary demon in Astralle's write-up, and the associations of the planet Mars with violence and destruction, but also with defense (many thanks to Dean for his discussion of Hermetic Theurgy in The Ultimate Mystic), we settled on the Demon of Mars, Barsabel.

[DShomshak]

Interesting choice, and I'm glad to learn that somebody used the character origin hooks I sprinkled about!

 

If anyone wants to develop the Seven Planetary Demons further, remember that it's a basic law of occultism that any groups of the same number can be correlated. Therefore, the Seven Planetary Demons can surely be associated with the Seven Deadly Sins. That I have never seen such a correlated list is probably a failure of my research, or else my memory. Feel free to work out your own list. It's not as if anyone can prove you're wrong. 😉

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

On 7/31/2021 at 10:45 PM, DShomshak said:

A 4th ed. version of Aratron, the Demon of Saturn, appears on p. 94 of Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies. That version is 335 points, at a time when PCs supposedly began at 250; but the standard for supervillains was already well beyond that. Since each edition brought further point inflation, a 6th ed Aratron should probably be about 600 points for "an intermediate power demon lord who might be summoned as a powerful wizard's enforcer." This would still be well below the 950-point Greater Demon in the 5th ed HERO System Bestiary, and far below the Demon Princes in that book, but I have a different design theory and esthetic in these matters.

 

It's worth noting that Dean also provided a 4E write-up in Creatures of the Night for two demons who have since been defined as "Sin Emperors" in the CU Netherworld's "Descending Hierarchy" of Abrahamic devils, Mephistopheles (Pride) and Baphomet (Wrath). Like Aratron they're well below the power level for comparable demons established under 5E, but would still make useful examples and templates. For my own use I blended elements of that Mephistopheles with the Demon Prince of Guile from the Bestiary, and Baphomet with the Prince of Strength from the same book.

[Lord Liaden]

On 7/31/2021 at 10:45 PM, DShomshak said:

As a point of unmitigated pedantry, the grimoire that describes Aratron et al, the Arbatel of Magic, calls them Olympian Spirits rather than demons, and claims to be a work of White Magic. In making them demons, I was guided by three principles: Arthur Edward Waite's observation that the methods and goals of supposed White Magic and Black Magic grimoires tend to be identical; that I didn't want to try explaining Olympian Spirits or creating a Champions Universe role or explanation for them; and that I could do something cool with a set of Planetary Demons, such as creating Astralle. The Seven are, shall we say, a creative misinterpretation of the source material.

 

 

11 hours ago, DShomshak said:

If anyone wants to develop the Seven Planetary Demons further, remember that it's a basic law of occultism that any groups of the same number can be correlated. Therefore, the Seven Planetary Demons can surely be associated with the Seven Deadly Sins. That I have never seen such a correlated list is probably a failure of my research, or else my memory. Feel free to work out your own list. It's not as if anyone can prove you're wrong. 😉

 

I find it interesting to consider where the planetary demons would fit within the CU's official Descending Hierarchy. The references I found suggest that the Hierarchy is roughly divided among "cohorts" following one of the Sin Emperors, "supreme exemplars of one particular brand of evil" (The Mystic World p.27). Besides Baphomet and Mephistopheles, named Sin Emperors include Lucifuge Rofocale (Greed) and Beelzebub (Envy). Associating the planetary demons with the Seven Deadly Sins would probably put each one within those respective Cohorts.

 

But Astralle's example made me think it would be appropriate (and fun) for those seven devils to have formed their own little cabal. I'm reminded of the concept of Marvel Comics' "Six-Fingered Hand," a group of minor demons pooling their strength to wield greater collective power.

 

Like Dean wrote in TMW, the Descending Hierarchy is not very orderly, with constant intrigue and scheming for power among them, so such a development seems very in-character to me.

 

EDIT: There are also groupings of devils mentioned which appear based on other commonalities, e.g. Beelzebub leading the fallen gods of Canaan displaced by the Abrahamic faiths, and an order of "knights" who compete in performing deeds of evil, the Order of the Fly.