Why can't you move after you attack?

[nexus]

All right. I will say I find it weird to picture to people starting in hand to hand combat, one punching the other then turning and running flat out, some 20 feet before the first can respond with the fleeing character being a speedster of some sort. But thats really beside the point I guess.

 

But is whats being talked about this:

Character A and B are adjacent. A punches B and can still make half move

 

or

 

Character B is a half move from Character A. B can half move to A, attack, then half move again?

[Fenixcrest]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Haha, whatever. The point is, the system allows you to move then attack IN THE SAME PHASE, but doesn't allow for attack then move IN THE SAME PHASE. You tell me why one takes any different amount of time, and then you might get somewhere.

 

...etc

 

Alright, lemme try and break it down...

In HERO, a phase is equal to one second. ONE second. Can you smack somebody and then make a run for it in one second? The Flash can, but I'll be he has SPD 8, at least, so he prolly gets to do it at the beginning of the next second. That's kind of one second.

I dunno about DnD 3e. In 2e, one combat round was an entire minute. A whole minute. 60 seconds. 5 turns. You can do all kinds of crazy crap in a minute, even with SPD 2. From what I can tell from the other posts here, in 3e a round is 12 seconds. I'm not saying that's true, but if it is, think of it this way-

 

A turn is 12 segments, is 12 possible phases, is 12 seconds. In turn, lots of things happen. You might punch somebody, and then on your next phase you could run for it. If you're faster than them, then it's fine. If you're not, then maybe you CON stunned the poor bastard. Then you can still run for it. Chances are, you get to do at least 2 things in that 12 second period.

 

Also, think of it from the first person, like in some of the "punching your brother" examples above-

Unless you threw a really weak, crappy punch, chances are you had to stop to aim, and then after the punch, you were slightly off-balance from throwing your weight into it; ergo, you can't move until you're ready to do so. In your next phase. It all makes sense to me, at least..

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by nexus

 

But is whats being talked about this:

Character A and B are adjacent. A punches B and can still make half move

 

or

 

Character B is a half move from Character A. B can half move to A, attack, then half move again?

 

We're talking about the former. The system allows for half-move then attack, but not attack then half-move, which is the basis for discussion, not half-move then attack then half-move!

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Fenixcrest

Alright, lemme try and break it down...

In HERO, a phase is equal to one second. ONE second. Can you smack somebody and then make a run for it in one second? The Flash can, but I'll be he has SPD 8, at least, so he prolly gets to do it at the beginning of the next second. That's kind of one second.

 

Can you run up to a person and smack them in 1 second? If so, why not be able to smack then and run for it in 1 second. Until someone adequately addresses this, the "hit and run away" argument is dead on arrival.

 

Further, you mention "1 second". A person's phase is 1 second only if they have a SPD 12. If a person is SPD 3, then their action effectively is spread across 4 seconds - it's not like they act for 1 second and then stand still for 3 seconds! Therefore a SPD 2 person is like a "normal" in D&D, where a combat round is 6 seconds. You mentioned 2e D&D, I only played 1e and 3e, so cannot comment.

[nexus]

I always thought an attack action ended your phase because you stopped a moment to aim and it took some degree of concentration. Thats what consumed your phase. Like most of the "attack and move" option have OCV penalties because your effectively "rushing" to move afterward, like Snap Fire and Move By. The character stops a moment to level his hand or ready a proper punch. Making a Half move in combat used to reduce your CV for just the same reason I think, but that rule was dropped. Its very abstract because Hero doesn't have "action points" like some combat systems beyond half and full phase action. Making it "Impossible" without using a Move by/thru or something similar is just a matter of simplicity. Alot of people already bitch that Hero combat is two slow or complex.

 

In any event if I were institute a Move after you attack rule, I would have it inflict a CV penalty. If I punch someone with the intent of turning completely around and dashing iff, its not going to be as effective as a solid attack, IMO. Defensively, turning my back on the target wouldn't be a good idea either. When you see someone really do that, in my experience, its a quick slap or playfull jab not a all out attack.

[nexus]

Actually, come to think of it. Action Points might be a cool replacement to the Speed Chart and eliminate little things like this.

 

Hm, I think I wil work on that.

[nexus]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Can you run up to a person and smack them in 1 second?

 

Well, not in one second, but I can walk up to someone and hit them in a couple of seconds easier than I can hit someone then turn around and walk away before they can hit me. I've seen alot of fights and, honestly I haven't seen that happen unless the first punch knock the person on their ass OR they were just too shocked or didn't plan to respond. Usually they take a swing almost instand. Trying to walk away would just get your punched in the back of the head.

 

If Hero was going to add that ability, I would hope there would be some kind "Attack of Opporunity" added to keep Speedster types (and teleporters) from being almost untouchable in Hand to Hand combat. Or at least keep combats between fast and slow HTH combatants from being endless "I'll wait for him to walk up to me, so I can back off" compeititions.

 

Slaughterj says he's never run into those problems (or at least not much) and I would deny his (or her) experiences, but I can see it happening far too easily and its just not that big a deal. If you just HAVE to move after you attack there are ways to do it. They're just risky to various degrees, but risk is what makes combat exciting.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Fenixcrest

Alright, lemme try and break it down...

In HERO, a phase is equal to one second. ONE second.

 

This statement is not quite accurate. 1 segment equals 1 second. Since there are 12 segments per turn, 1 turn equals 12 seconds. 5 turns per minute, so on and so forth.

 

A characters phase is how many segments it takes to analyze a situtation and initiate action. The number of segments (or seconds) it takes to do this depends on a characters Speed characteristic. A character with a Speed of 2 takes 6 seconds to complete one of their phases. A character with a speed of 4 takes 3 seconds per phase. A character with a speed of 10 takes 1.2 seconds per phase.

 

I'm sure you are aware of this, however and meant "Segment" rather than "Phase" when you wrote this statement

[Farkling]

If you want to hit someone and move away from them, then technically (ie, by the rules) it IS a Move by, not an attack and half move. I still impoose a -1 penalty for half move and attack, out of preference. ONE player I know actually ever braced or set...so I imposed the half move penalty to encourage more tactical thought...

[tesuji]

Originally posted by nexus

If Hero was going to add that ability, I would hope there would be some kind "Attack of Opporunity" added to keep Speedster types (and teleporters) from being almost untouchable in Hand to Hand combat. Or at least keep combats between fast and slow HTH combatants from being endless "I'll wait for him to walk up to me, so I can back off" compeititions.

 

OK i will bite... how would this be unbeatable...

 

Assuming i am still restricted to one move and one attack, then inorder to punch and move away i had to move up LAST TIME and end my move there. That should give you a chance to punch me. Now the sequence may well be.. flash moves up and punches, beepo punchs flash back, then flash punches back and moves away, giving him twice the attacks assuming he moves faster than beepo unless of course beepo throws stuff at flash.

 

On the other hand, if the move is accomplished because flash holds his action, using a delay action to move right after beepo goes, then pucnhes beepo twice and moves away... i would say that is an example of the extra phases and one guy using the hold-then-double thing to milk the speed chart and not a problem with attack then move. After all, with attack then move illegal and the same setup , flash could delay, swoop in and puch as the delay, then full move away now. Changing the rule would allow two punches, but only a half move away.

 

I keep hearing it repeated but the invincible speedster seems to be a boogeyman, not a fact.

 

But I might just be flat out wrong.

 

Pretend i am a brick standing in the middle of s typical superheroic streetcorner fracas. Show me the speedster who is going to unbeatble me to oblivion with the move-ends-action rule changed that would not be unbeatable if that rule were in place as it is written now. Figure that while not a rocket scientist... oh wait, most of my bricks were very educated... but i am at least smart enough to understand cover, held acxtions, and the fact that i can pick up things and throw them or swing them for AOR and i may have some levels in HTH combat such as grab.

 

[Warp9]

Originally posted by Blue

I allow standard Half Move & Attack, Full move, and Attack & Half Move actions and have never had an issue. Just goes to my general feeling about rules in games: As long as they apply to everyone equally there's typically no problem.

 

Naturally you still can't do 0 Phase actions (like activation/deactivation of powers) after you've attacked, but I'll still let you move if you have both movement left (up to half your movement) and a half-action left.

 

I don't have a real problem with the attack and then move issue other than it seems to be the consensus that you wouldn't allow 0 phase actions after an attack.

 

Thus, my character would be able to pull off a 1/2 phase action (move across the room) after his attack, and yet somehow would be unable to do a simple 0 phase action.

 

Basically (by this approach) it sounds like a 1/2 phase action is easier to do than a 0 phase action.

[nexus]

You're a brick so I presume no ranged attacks and no (Or not much) enhanced movement. Lets say I have a Half move of 15 (good for speedster) I don't move up to punch you. I wait for you to come to me, holding myt action, attack youn and move away, moving to you full move distance. You have to spend another phase to close with me. Since I am faster, I hold again, attack you and move away, repeat. Since iniative in Hero is fixed, there is no chance you can hit me before I move away once you've moved up to get into HTH range. We could end up dancing around all day like that.

 

Now, there are ways around this but it would be, at the least, annoying. You have to have be able to grab me and objects of convience to pick up and throw are not alway so convient and I'm a Speedster, I probably have a very high DCV and movement with high odds of diving for cover. Now, "Unbeatable" might have been hyberbole on my part, but it was very effective at the least.

[tesuji]

[/b]

 

Originally posted by nexus

You're a brick so I presume no ranged attacks and no (Or not much) enhanced movement. Lets say I have a Half move of 15 (good for speedster) I don't move up to punch you. I wait for you to come to me, holding myt action, attack youn and move away, moving to you full move distance. You have to spend another phase to close with me. Since I am faster, I hold again, attack you and move away, repeat. Since iniative in Hero is fixed, there is no chance you can hit me before I move away once you've moved up to get into HTH range. We could end up dancing around all day like that.

When i move up and you call up your held action, since your first act is an attack, NOT a defense, we get to make an opposed roll to see which of us goes first. Might you be better at that roll, sure if you PAID for more dex than i did. Thats what you get for PAYING for more dex than i did, if thats the case.

 

But lets say "getting more for paying more" is not a good principle you accept.

 

I can still, after one round of this, pick up something i can throw, possibly something large and area effectish and hurl it at you. IF your Gm allows you to call up a held phase to move out of the way, making that somehow automatically make me miss, then the issue you may be having there has nothing to do with attack-move but with how held actions are done... since the same thing would occur if attack-move were illegal.

 

All in all, you standing off and not attacking does not seem to me to be a problem.

 

and BTW, i dont know about you, but in my experiences many bricks have really good movements. Leaping is the most common with cheap cost and great synergy with high strength and the end cost is easily handled by the high rec from strength guy.

Originally posted by nexus

Now, there are ways around this but it would be, at the least, annoying.

Ahhh... well thats good for me. i was looking for the unbeatable speedsters examples, not the "annoying speedster" examples.

 

Thanks anyway.

Originally posted by nexus

You have to have be able to grab me and objects of convience to pick up and throw are not alway so convient and I'm a Speedster, I probably have a very high DCV and movement with high odds of diving for cover. Now, "Unbeatable" might have been hyberbole on my part, but it was very effective at the least.

 

If you have higer dex and good dodge and all those things, its because you PAID for them. You got wehat you paid for. Is it NOTICEABLY easier for me to kick you because you cannot attack then move? If you are more speedy than i and have more actions, cannot you just time your approach and retreat even in an ATTACK-MOVE_ILLEGAl ruleset? Wont me holding action be an answer either way?

 

Boogeyman, not fact.

[nexus]

Originally posted by tesuji

 

But lets say "getting more for paying more" is not a good principle you accept.

 

I can still, after one round of this, pick up something i can throw, possibly something large and area effectish and hurl it at you. IF your Gm allows you to call up a held phase to move out of the way, making that somehow automatically make me miss, then the issue you may be having there has nothing to do with attack-move but with how held actions are done... since the same thing would occur if attack-move were illegal.

 

All in all, you standing off and not attacking does not seem to me to be a problem.

 

Thanks anyway.

 

If you have higer dex and good dodge and all those things, its because you PAID for them. You got wehat you paid for. Is it NOTICEABLY easier for me to kick you because you cannot attack then move? If you are more speedy than i and have more actions, cannot you just time your approach and retreat even in an ATTACK-MOVE_ILLEGAl ruleset? Wont me holding action be an answer either way?

 

Boogeyman, not fact. [/b]

 

Some snippage above.

 

There is such a thing as getting too much for what you paid for, IMO. If you don't share that opinion thats fine. You already get a great deal for Dexterity and Speed already, using the attack then move seems to give more than its worth.

 

As I said, you can pick up something. If there is something to pick up. Its likely going to be a large unweildy object at best and since sunk alot of points into strength, you won't be throwing it that well. I can Dive for Cover at the very least, and with my high dex and great move which I paid for I'll problably succeed. There's a chance of failure, but its ususally fairly slim in my experience.

 

In short, I think that rule makes Dexterity and Move more effective than its cost warrants. Generally, if you want to be so much faster than you opponent you can dance around them before they can act, you buy more Speed which is quite expensive. What I pointed out is a fairly cheap trick that can be easily done with that rules change. If thats not something that you thiunk is a problem, cool but I don't get the attitude I'm picking up. We're discussing a game. Why get insulting and snide? I haven't come across that why, have I?

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by nexus

Slaughterj says he's never run into those problems (or at least not much) and I would deny his (or her) experiences, but I can see it happening far too easily and its just not that big a deal. If you just HAVE to move after you attack there are ways to do it. They're just risky to various degrees, but risk is what makes combat exciting.

 

"His"

 

I'm not sure how you can deny my experiences?

 

Regardless, I've run it that way for virtually all of my Hero gaming, and it has not been an issue. By not allowing it, people question why. By allowing it, there are no issues. Consequently there are no reasons not to.

 

When discussing this issue, everyone talks about the terrible speedster situation, especially in light of the poor, slow moving (though in Hero, often they have high Leaping movements), brick with no ranged attack or available ranged objects (pretty rare not to have a tree or lamp post or work station or piece of a building nearby), where the brick has no other target to attack (the speedster must have no friends) - all-in-all, a very narrow situation in and of itself!

 

Let's look at a few situations allowing move after attack and see where the problem is, if any, assuming speedster at DEX 30, SPD 8, Running 40", and brick at DEX 15, SPD 3, Leaping 10":

 

Situation 1: Both start next to one another on Segment 12, speedster attacks at DEX 30 and runs away 20", out of brick's range to attack within a half move or to full move move through attack. Brick can either (a) grab an available object to throw (if such exists), ( half move toward the speedster or an alternative (safe?) location, and hold a half phase, which he can use when the speedster runs up again to attack the speedster, © the brick can full move away, meaning the speedster is now 30" away, which *may* limit the speedster's options (e.g., could full move to the brick on SPD 2, then attack on SPD 3 and move away (thus 1 less phase of attacks), or the speedster would be stuck with options like Move-By or Move-Thru with the associated penalties). Brick either gets an attack with the thrown item, has a held phase to attack when the speedster returns, or can try other options - no real issues here.

 

Situation 2: Speedster starts away from the brick on Segment 12, so if he chooses to move up to attack the brick, he will be attacked in return. Not much to that situation.

 

Situation 3: On segment 2, Speedster moves up to brick with no held phase, attacks brick, then on segment 3, attacks again, then moves away. Speedster got to run away, after the 2nd attack, unlike regular hero, but regardless, due to the SPD differential, the speedster is often going to get in additional attacks. The speedster will be incredibly difficult for the typical brick to hit anyway (thus, think creative! grab a truck and make an area attack!), so in regular hero, standing there likely would not have mattered. Alternatively, the speedster could on Segment 4 (when the brick would have gotten a return swing), pulled phase and dodged, making it even less likely for the brick or anyone else to hit. Sure, the brick would be taking a bunch of hits (probably not much damage though), but in the future, the brick would see he would need a bit more cunning again such a speedy foe, and hold phases appropriately, resolving the problem (for instance holding phase 12 action), swing when the speedster ran up on Segment 2, maybe beating him to a bloody pulp right off).

 

In the end, what it comes down to is how stupid the brick is played. If he has a 8-10 INT, he still is going to quickly realize that just standing there is not going to work, he is going to either have to wait for the speedster to run up, then hit him with his held action, or find something to throw at the speedster, or find an alternative action to take (attack the speedster's buddy, leave the situation, grab innocent victims if he is a villain, etc.). In any superhero game, it is like rock-paper-scissors and there will be character types which will be difficult for other character types to handle well, e.g., bricks and mentalists usually boil down to whoever attacks first. Whether attack then move is allowed doesn't affect this dynamic - characters need to be played with some level of intelligence, and characters will have weaknesses against other characters, but can use their intelligence to search for solutions. Otherwise you just get a rock-em-sock-em wargame.

[Warp9]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Generally I agree, but if something isn't problematic, I'm fine with a given 0 phase action being taken, e.g., if someone wants to attack from hiding, then activate their bright FF, and then move out into the open, I don't see any issue. There are probably a few issues, some might have a problem with people attacking, then turning desolid, but that's not too much of an issue for me either.

Lets say my character has a multipower, and 5 skill levels with the multipower.

60 point Multipower

u 12d6 EB

u +30 PD +30ED Force Field

 

Would you have a problem with the following set up: My character starts out with the force field up, and the levels on DCV. My character then switches the force field to EB, and the levels to OCV (both 0 phase actions). He then shoots his opponet (1/2 pha action). Afterword he then switches the multipower back to force field, and the levels back to defensive (0 pha actions). And he would still have a half phase action left.

 

And that also brings up a different point. If I can do a half phase action after I attack, can I use my 1/2 phase action to do another attack? It would be logical that I could.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Warp9

Lets say my character has a multipower, and 5 skill levels with the multipower.

60 point Multipower

u 12d6 EB

u +30 PD +30ED Force Field

 

Would you have a problem with the following set up: My character starts out with the force field up, and the levels on DCV. My character then switches the force field to EB, and the levels to OCV (both 0 phase actions). He then shoots his opponet (1/2 pha action). Afterword he then switches the multipower back to force field, and the levels back to defensive (0 pha actions). And he would still have a half phase action left.

 

As I have said before, I would run it basically like the system is already run - once you've set your levels, multipower slots, etc. for a phase, they remain at that setting for the phase. Whether you attack, then set them, then move, or vice versa, it doesn't matter, so long as they are only usable once per phase.

 

Regarding your particular example, you may have started the phase with settings on DCV and FF (presumably due to having been set there on your previous phase), but once you switch to OCV and EB, they remain set there for the phase. You would not be able to switch them otherwise. That eliminates the potential for abuse. (Alternatively, you could tell your players "sure, you can do that", but remind them that so can the villains )

 

Originally posted by Warp9

And that also brings up a different point. If I can do a half phase action after I attack, can I use my 1/2 phase action to do another attack? It would be logical that I could.

 

That's a whole separate discussion, best left for a separate thread, so I won't reply substantively here.

[Warp9]

Originally posted by slaughterj

As I have said before, I would run it basically like the system is already run - once you've set your levels, multipower slots, etc. for a phase, they remain at that setting for the phase. Whether you attack, then set them, then move, or vice versa, it doesn't matter, so long as they are only usable once per phase.

 

Regarding your particular example, you may have started the phase with settings on DCV and FF (presumably due to having been set there on your previous phase), but once you switch to OCV and EB, they remain set there for the phase. You would not be able to switch them otherwise. That eliminates the potential for abuse. (Alternatively, you could tell your players "sure, you can do that", but remind them that so can the villains )

 

Where does it say in the rules that multipower switches and skill levels may only be set once per phase? I'm not saying that I'm sure it doesn't, but from what I know of the rules, that is not the way things work.

 

On page 233 of FREd it says: "A character may perform as many 0 phase actions as he wishes" the only limitation stipulated is that a character can't do 0 phase actions after an attack.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Warp9

Where does it say in the rules that multipower switches and skill levels may only be set once per phase? I'm not saying that I'm sure it doesn't, but from what I know of the rules, that is not the way things work.

 

On page 233 of FREd it says: "A character may perform as many 0 phase actions as he wishes" the only limitation stipulated is that a character can't do 0 phase actions after an attack.

 

Multipower switches, skill levels settings, etc., are stopped from being changed by the current Hero rule which says that an attack ends your phase, and you can't do 0 phase actions after an attack. By allowing a rule change where an attack can occur before a move, the effective rule of only allowing 1 use per phase is necessary to avoid abuse - this can be seen as an extension of the rules, a rules change, a statement of the underlying rule in hero, or whatever semantic description you want to apply to it. Regardless of how you describe it, this rule is seen at least in part in the FAQ with regard to powers - from the FAQ, the first entry under the "Powers" section:

 

Q: Since activating a Power is a Zero-Phase Action, could a character turn the same Power on and off during the same Phase? For example, could a character with Desolidification start his Phase solid, Hold his Phase, turn Desolidified when someone attacks him, then turn solid again and attack?

 

A: Generally speaking, no. In most cases a character should only turn a Power on or off once in a Phase. The example above shows just how potentially abusive allowing on/off in the same Phase can be.

 

However, it should be noted that, under a strict technical interpretation of the rules, what you’re describing is possible. To say characters should never be allowed to turn a Power on and off during a Segment could potentially impede a lot of perfectly valid and dramatic actions. On/off in a Segment might be appropriate in many situations, campaigns, and genres. The GM might allow it as a campaign ground rule, as a one-time thing in appropriate circumstances, or as a trick occasionally pulled with the assistance of an appropriate Power Skill roll.

[nexus]

Originally posted by slaughterj

"His"

 

I'm not sure how you can deny my experiences?

.

 

Ah, maybe thats what set people off. That is a typo. I meant "I would not deny his experiences." In other words, I'm not going to sit here and say you're games haven't gone well with the change as you say. My apologies.

[Warp9]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Multipower switches, skill levels settings, etc., are stopped from being changed by the current Hero rule which says that an attack ends your phase, and you can't do 0 phase actions after an attack. By allowing a rule change where an attack can occur before a move, the effective rule of only allowing 1 use per phase is necessary to avoid abuse - this can be seen as an extension of the rules, a rules change, a statement of the underlying rule in hero, or whatever semantic description you want to apply to it. Regardless of how you describe it, this rule is seen at least in part in the FAQ with regard to powers - from the FAQ, the first entry under the "Powers" section:

 

Q: Since activating a Power is a Zero-Phase Action, could a character turn the same Power on and off during the same Phase? For example, could a character with Desolidification start his Phase solid, Hold his Phase, turn Desolidified when someone attacks him, then turn solid again and attack?

 

A: Generally speaking, no. In most cases a character should only turn a Power on or off once in a Phase. The example above shows just how potentially abusive allowing on/off in the same Phase can be.

 

However, it should be noted that, under a strict technical interpretation of the rules, what you’re describing is possible. To say characters should never be allowed to turn a Power on and off during a Segment could potentially impede a lot of perfectly valid and dramatic actions. On/off in a Segment might be appropriate in many situations, campaigns, and genres. The GM might allow it as a campaign ground rule, as a one-time thing in appropriate circumstances, or as a trick occasionally pulled with the assistance of an appropriate Power Skill roll.

 

Thank you for pointing out that stuff in the FAQ. I was not aware of it.

 

And again, (as I stated above) I don't have anything specifically against the "move after attack" concept.

 

However, I was under the impression that the reason for this new way of doings things is that it would make more sense, and get rid of an unreasonable limitation. But it seems that your way of doing things involves some new limitations. And these new limitations may not make any more sense than the original limitations which you may be seeking to correct.

 

Basically you can argue that, if in a given amount of time you can move and attack, that you should also be able to attack and move. But I can also argue that, if you have time to preform a 1/2 phase action after an attack, I should be able to get off a 0 phase action after my attack.

 

And while I agree that the "attack and attack" thing is a somewhat more complex issue, it IMO seems a logical next step to this argument. Maybe I'm misunderstanding where you are coming from, but It seems to me that the real core of the argument is that a half phase action IS a half phase action (and it doesn't matter if it is an attack or a move). If you have time for 2 half phase actions, and attacking doesn't end the phase, then why can't you attack again instead of moving?

 

If the following are all valid options:

 

1/2 Move and Attack

1/2 Move and 1/2 Move

Attack and 1/2 Move

 

then why not:

 

Attack and Attack

[Farkling]

If the following are all valid options:

 

1/2 Move and Attack

1/2 Move and 1/2 Move

Attack and 1/2 Move

 

then why not:

 

Attack and Attack

 

A valid point. Which leads to a comment on the system I played in (3rd/4th ?) a prior edtion of Champions (10 years ago maybe?). The game at the con was an X-Men team versus villains, another table played Avengers vs villains, and for the culmination, they played a second round with the X-Men vs the Avengers. They had an ENTIRE notebook of changes to the Champions system. The combat changes took up 4 or 5 pages.

 

They felt that the phase rulings weren't "up-to-snuff" and had split each phase into half phases. Yes, a bastardized 24-segment Time Chart, with everyone performing a half phase action then performing their second half phase actions in DEX order. Gods that was a horribly slow and wierd combat. I should've been warned when I was handed my 750 pt edition of Beast to play. Cyclops was 1000 pts if I remember correctly.

 

They wouldn't let us do a Fastball Special, not because it wasn't in their rulebook, but because it was more than a half phase action. Colossus took a few hits while the split phase combat system continued to step us through "Grab", "Haymaker STR","Toss Beast at Magneto." Colossus was decked right after he threw Beast. lWe finished the combat. We damn near took out Magneto in spite of his tremendous defenses. I got the "best roleplaying" prize, my pal got third runner up. We refused to play in the second half of the game, and told them we wanted to play a fun game, not learn a new and strangely obtuse combat system for Champions.

(Thus, these people were responsible for my finding the White Wolf system, as I played a game of WereWolf after that. I bought Mage because of that WereWolf game and the subject matter of the Mage-verse. I don't care much for WereWolf, and less for Vampyre)

 

To this day I meet rabid anti-Hero players at cons that have told me the Hero combat system is way too complicated to be fun to play. 50% of them say they played in a horrible Avengers/X-Men game that put them off of Hero, because it had such a restricted action sequence. I do my best to show them they were misinformed.

 

Moral? Be careful what you tinker with, and be sure to note it as house rules...

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Warp9

If the following are all valid options:

 

1/2 Move and Attack

1/2 Move and 1/2 Move

Attack and 1/2 Move

 

then why not:

 

Attack and Attack

 

Ok, this one is easy. The argument is not, from what I can gather, that all half-actions are created equal. Thats certainly an argument that can be made, but thats not necessarily the one being made here.

 

HERo currently recognizes two types of half-actions: those which ara attacks and those which aren't. Currently under the rules you can (as a sum total of a full action):

Do two non-attack actions in any order.

Do one attack action and one non-attack action but ONLY in one specific order. Non-attack followed by attack is Ok while attack followed by non-attack is not.

You are NOT allowed to do two attacks, short of the various rapid fire and multipower things.

 

It is not being argued that the rule forbidding two attacks should be changed.

 

It is being argued that the rule permitting the non-attack & attack but only in one order be changed to allow that to occur in either order.

 

HERO currently seems to operate very much similarly to how D20 handles it, with there basically being move equivalent actions (non-attack 1/2 actions in HERO) and partial/standard actions (attack 1/2 actions in hero) except that HERO has that wierd order rule.

 

As an aside...

Note that there are versions of D20 which eliminate the distinction and do have just one category half actions so as matter of fact the typical first level guy can fire two shots using a half action each. It seems to run very cleanly too.

[AnotherSkip]

Some of the Multible attack options are full phase so you could argue that they are attack/attack.

 

If a Gm wanted to (IMNSHO)complicate things he could split multible atttacks options into attack (everyone else) 2nd attack (everyone else 2nd attack)

 

But hey this is all in Gm's option land.

[Warp9]

Originally posted by tesuji

Ok, this one is easy. The argument is not, from what I can gather, that all half-actions are created equal. Thats certainly an argument that can be made, but thats not necessarily the one being made here.

 

HERo currently recognizes two types of half-actions: those which ara attacks and those which aren't. Currently under the rules you can (as a sum total of a full action):

Do two non-attack actions in any order.

Do one attack action and one non-attack action but ONLY in one specific order. Non-attack followed by attack is Ok while attack followed by non-attack is not.

You are NOT allowed to do two attacks, short of the various rapid fire and multipower things.

 

It is not being argued that the rule forbidding two attacks should be changed.

 

It is being argued that the rule permitting the non-attack & attack but only in one order be changed to allow that to occur in either order.

 

I wasn't saying that it was being directly argued that two attacks should be allowed. I understand that you were not specificly saying such a thing. What I am saying is that, IMO it is simply a logical consequence of your argument.