Why can't you move after you attack?

[The Souljourner]

I played my first game of Hero (Champions) yesterday. I really enjoyed it, but one thing irked me - after you attack, you can't move.

 

Coming from D&D, I am used to the "half move and attack or full move" restriction, and I think it makes a lot of sense... but why oh why can't you attack then move in Hero? It seems to really restrict the player's option for tactics. In my game yesterday, they were plenty of times when I would have attacked then moved behind cover or something similar, but that option just doesn't exist.

 

Is there a reason for this? Do you think there would be a big problem with allowing attack then move?

 

-Nate

[Vondy]

Re: Why can't you move after you attack?

 

Originally posted by The Souljourner

I played my first game of Hero (Champions) yesterday. I really enjoyed it, but one thing irked me - after you attack, you can't move.

 

Coming from D&D, I am used to the "half move and attack or full move" restriction, and I think it makes a lot of sense... but why oh why can't you attack then move in Hero? It seems to really restrict the player's option for tactics. In my game yesterday, they were plenty of times when I would have attacked then moved behind cover or something similar, but that option just doesn't exist.

 

Is there a reason for this? Do you think there would be a big problem with allowing attack then move?

 

-Nate

 

The character can do a move by if they want to take a full move and attack in the same phase. And if the target is within 2 hexes/inches of them they take no range mods for doing so.

[Solomon]

Allowing characters to move normally after attacking would give a decisive edge to characters with high Movement scores. They would be able keep without reach of slower characters too easily.

Of course there are ways around that. Look at optional manouvers that combine full movement with attacks. For instance, you can keep on moving after performing a "Move By".

The kind of action in which you start behind cover, move out to attack, then get back under cover, is handled by the "Snap shot" manouver.

[Catseye]

It also "makes sense" to me.

 

The speed chart really divides what you would think of as a "round" in D&D terms into many sub-actions. So you really CAN attack and then move in one "round" unless you are really slow (movement of 1). But attacking means you need to stop and engage the other person. It makes perfect sense to me that this would introduce some loss of movement time.

 

*shrug*

[Lord Liaden]

This is one rule which IIRC has been part of the HERO System since the earliest days of Champions, over twenty years ago. I've always played it that way, and truth to tell I rather like the tactical decisions it causes players to make. I'm inclined to view it as inspiring combat creativity rather than stifling it.

 

OTOH I've seen some detailed debates on the boards as to whether allowing movement after combat is really that detrimental. Some GMs have allowed this, and assert that as long as you keep to the "two half-Phase or one full-Phase actions" limit, the order in which you do it isn't really a problem.

 

My suggestion would be to play with this variant a bit, if your players are willing, and see how it works for you. Maybe in a stand-alone combat scenario or two, so that it won't influence the outcome of the main events in your campaign.

[Monolith]

The main reason is so that bricks with a lot of running don't punch someone and then half move away to avoid being hit themselves. If you allowed such things you would end up with "tag" combats where everyone is chasing everyone else around the battle field. It is basically the same for fliers, only they usually have ranged attacks so the movement of an opponent is not as troublesome, outside of extra range modifiers.

 

It is also true that players are not always as brave as the characters in the genre they are attempting to emulate. Players tend to use tactics which favor them instead of just duking it out. So if you know you can make a 5" half move and your opponent can only make a 3" half move, you would punch him and run away too, just to keep from being hit.

 

Also, as far as the concept of rounds, I tend to think of a "round" of HERO combat a being the Turn. And then the Phases are how many actions the character gets per round. It seems to work for me, and helps make sense when people ask why can't I attack twice per Phase like I do at higher levels in D&D.

[BobGreenwade]

Snap Shot

 

If someone really, desperately wants to move after attacking (especially moving for cover), he can always try the Snap Shot maneuver (FREd page 262).

[AnotherSkip]

You also can use the "flying dodge" manuver from the UMA

(Fmv Dodge), though that isn't really "attacking".

[TheEmerged]

The answer boils down to the "tag" argument. I've seen it happen too many times in 3D&D (which allows attack-then-move with an exception-heavy Attack of Opportunity system) -- if there's enough room to move and the opposition is fairly equal, combat becomes a glorified version of Tag. Especially for monks, rogues, or any high-DEX character with enough points in Tumble for whom the AoO effectively become a 1-in-20 exception. If someone has the Spring Attack feat and enough movement, they become almost untouchable if they've room to move.

[Talon]

Having participated in a couple debates over this, and seen analagous situations arise in 3E (e.g., monks with massive movement), my gut feeling is that the rule could be removed without any adverse effects.

[dugfromthearth]

There are at least 5 ways to attack and move in Hero.

 

1) use the snap shot maneuver to attack then move behind cover

 

2) use a move by or move through to attack during a move (could be at start or end)

 

3) buy a high speed so that you attack and then move before your opponent gets to go, effectively giving you an attack and move

 

4) hold a phase and then attack right before your next phase so that you get to attack and then go again right away, giving you effectively an attack and move

 

5) attack and then on the next segment abort to dive for cover.

[Guest Keneton]

It stops attack then tunnel. especially if you can seal the whole.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

I've seen it happen too many times in 3D&D (which allows attack-then-move with an exception-heavy Attack of Opportunity system)

 

This is an oversimplification. You can only attack and move if you are either a)already standing next to your target which means last turn you moved and attacked to get there or b)making a ranged attack in which instance the "tag" argument is moot.

 

For the OP:

 

The reason you can do this in D&D is for the most part movement rates are not that disparate. People under the influence of a Fly spell and the occasional high level Monk are, usually, going to be the only folks able to move much farther than those they're fighting.

 

In HERO it's a lot easier to have disparity of movement and this greatly exaggerates the problems with "tag" combats. I would hazard a guess that since combat is already slower in HERO than other systems, anything that causes phases to be spent on closing would drag things out further.

[Trencher]

I tell you the same I tell my players it a game-balance thing

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Solomon

Allowing characters to move normally after attacking would give a decisive edge to characters with high Movement scores. They would be able keep without reach of slower characters too easily.

 

Not really. This is an archaic rule with no real purpose to it now, or possibly ever. I've run Hero since the late 80s allowing movement after attack, without ever a problem. This subject (and my perspective on it) has been discussed repeatedly here actually. Further, many modern rpg systems don't have this constraint, because it is clearly not an issue.

 

If one is worried about a high movement brick striking someone and then moving away. Well, they are only going to do it that phase. Then what happens? If the struck target can't move to the distant brick, the brick won't start next to them to the next phase to be able to do it again. They'll have to move to them, strike them, and then be standing next to them. Further, even if the high movement brick moves away, many have ranged attacks who can still hit the brick.

 

Even if you take the situation of a speedster, it doesn't matter. Let's have some stats to work with, a Running 30", SPD 8 speedster versus a Running 6" Leaping 12" SPD 4 brick. Let's say the battle starts with the speedster away from the target, and moves up to attack on phase 12. Then the brick gets to hit. Then the speedster attacks again, and moves away on phase 2 (or stays there and hits again on phase 3, then moves away before the brick's action). The speedster has 2 phases of actions between each of the brick's, regardless, but now the speedster is out of reach. The brick now merely needs to hold a half phase to hit the speedster when he comes back, and can still use a half phase on each of his actions to move or whatever. If the situation where a Flying energy projector instead of a speedster, the brick can throw things at the energy projector, or if he is so outclassed, he should be smart enough to leave the situation, e.g., change the environment so he is in a building which curtails his opponent's movement.

 

I've yet to see any scenario presented where attack then move was an issue, and expect if there was one, that it would be fairly contrived (both people are outside with no cover on a featureless plain) as to be of little concern in regular, typical play.

[Blue]

I allow standard Half Move & Attack, Full move, and Attack & Half Move actions and have never had an issue. Just goes to my general feeling about rules in games: As long as they apply to everyone equally there's typically no problem.

 

Naturally you still can't do 0 Phase actions (like activation/deactivation of powers) after you've attacked, but I'll still let you move if you have both movement left (up to half your movement) and a half-action left.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Blue

I allow standard Half Move & Attack, Full move, and Attack & Half Move actions and have never had an issue. Just goes to my general feeling about rules in games: As long as they apply to everyone equally there's typically no problem.

 

Hear hear!

 

Originally posted by Blue

Naturally you still can't do 0 Phase actions (like activation/deactivation of powers) after you've attacked, but I'll still let you move if you have both movement left (up to half your movement) and a half-action left.

 

Generally I agree, but if something isn't problematic, I'm fine with a given 0 phase action being taken, e.g., if someone wants to attack from hiding, then activate their bright FF, and then move out into the open, I don't see any issue. There are probably a few issues, some might have a problem with people attacking, then turning desolid, but that's not too much of an issue for me either.

[Solomon]

I actually used a "move after attack" rule in my first days as a Champions GM because I had a poor grasp of the rules. I didn't like the results and was quite happy to find out there was a rule preventing unrestricted movement after attacks.

 

I felt that allowing "Move after attack" led many energy projectors with high Movement scores to do a "ranged attack two-steps" pattern: "fire then withdraw", "close then fire", rinse and repeat. Unrealistic, un-fictional and just plain silly.

 

Of course slower opponents could prevent that by holding actions, but this in turn tends to slow down fights. The "two steps" pattern becomes even more of an issue if you take into account unusual movement powers like Teleport or Tunnel.

 

Plus, if you allow movement after attack, there is no logic reason against allowing "0 phase" actions too, which opens a whole new can of worms. Shifting combat levels, shifting Multipowers and VPPs and pesky powers like Desolid come to mind. "Turn solid, attack, turn desolid and move" anyone? Not horribly powerful, of course, just too annoying for my personal tastes. Such issues simply do not arise under "standard" HERO rules.

[The Souljourner]

Like someone said.. in order to punch someone then move away, you have to be standing next to the person at the beginning of the phase, which means that they got the opportunity to hit you on their last phase (generally).

 

I can definitely see not allowing multipower and variable power pool changes after an attack, so people with multipowers don't switch all their points into offense before they attack, and all into defense after they attack, but just moving doesn't seem like a big deal.

 

Yeah, you can do move by, but that's a very specific manuever with very specific restrictions. I'll have to look at snap shot, since I'm not as familiar with that.

 

And in D&D, the problem is not with high movement monks moving after they attack, it's with high movement monks moving *both* before and after their attack with spring attack. And even that isn't ridiculous, because your target can just ready an action to attack you when you get close.

 

-Nate

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Solomon

I actually used a "move after attack" rule in my first days as a Champions GM because I had a poor grasp of the rules. I didn't like the results and was quite happy to find out there was a rule preventing unrestricted movement after attacks.

 

I felt that allowing "Move after attack" led many energy projectors with high Movement scores to do a "ranged attack two-steps" pattern: "fire then withdraw", "close then fire", rinse and repeat. Unrealistic, un-fictional and just plain silly.

 

Of course slower opponents could prevent that by holding actions, but this in turn tends to slow down fights. The "two steps" pattern becomes even more of an issue if you take into account unusual movement powers like Teleport or Tunnel.

 

Fire withdraw, close then fire, would seem to bring them potentially in reach. Characters can be played with a whit of sense to take cover rather than the dumb plodding brick acting like a horse after the carrot strung before him.

 

Originally posted by Solomon

Plus, if you allow movement after attack, there is no logic reason against allowing "0 phase" actions too, which opens a whole new can of worms. Shifting combat levels, shifting Multipowers and VPPs and pesky powers like Desolid come to mind. "Turn solid, attack, turn desolid and move" anyone? Not horribly powerful, of course, just too annoying for my personal tastes. Such issues simply do not arise under "standard" HERO rules.

 

I used GM discretion on these. If something had been "used", it couldn't be used again, e.g., if skill levels had been applied at the start of a phase, then attack, then they were set and couldn't be switched after the attack because they had been used. Same logic could be used for desolid (turning solid, attacking, then turning desolid) if it's a concern, and that's not horribly powerful as you noted, given holding phases. I think that the idea of "it's been used, you can't use it again" pretty much takes care of most things, as well as the old adage "if you can do it, so can your opponents", when deciding whether something should be able to be done in play. Obviously the rule book needs to flesh things out more if the rule were changed, but it could start by stating these basic principles, then getting into the thick of it from there.

[Yog Sothoth]

Correct me if I am wrong, or as been stated above.

 

For missile, you can us the "Snap Shot" maneuver. Won't elaborate.

 

And for mele the "Move-By" maneuver. If you attack before any movement is made, I consider it a "Move-By" with a velocity of 0". The attack is less powerful yes, but lets you move later on. I consider the lost, in attack power, as if given to the preparation of the momentum you will need to move afterward.

 

Its just a game also, pretty damm good one I must say.

[DigitalGolem]

How to move after your attack...

 

...in one easy lesson.

 

Hold your action! If there's an urgent need to keep my options open, I hold my entire action until the end of the segment before my next phase. Then I make the half-move, attack, and only have to wait until my Dex comes up the following phase. For a high-Dex character, this provides a chance (not guaranteed, of course) to move, attack and withdraw before the target can retaliate, especially if they already used their action before your attack.

 

They will usually get wise to this after one or two attacks, however, and respond in kind by holding their own action, saving their very favorite HKA just for you! THWACK!!!

 

So remember, using the best tactic is smart, but using it over and over again, isn't.

 

thanx heaps,

 

DGv3.0

[KA.]

Okay,

 

I finally decided to weigh in on this.

 

The question as to movement after attack is not one of "right or wrong", it is, what are the results?

 

If I said that, in my family, when we play checkers, each person gets to move two checkers on their turn, instead of just one, I would not expect to be told that I was a "blasphemer", but I would expect someone to tell me that what I was playing was no longer "checkers".

 

I might enjoy it more, but the problem is, once I am used to playing this way, I can basically only play with other members of my family, or people that I "convert" to my new game.

 

That can be a problem, unless you are the GM, and you plan to game with the same people "forever".

 

Otherwise, you are teaching them a mode of play that will not be compatible with other Hero players.

 

This is not some kind of sin, but it is not necessarily the best way to go either.

 

KA

[Victor]

Such are the perils of using a "toolkit" system in the first place.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by KA.

Okay,

 

I finally decided to weigh in on this.

 

The question as to movement after attack is not one of "right or wrong", it is, what are the results?

 

If I said that, in my family, when we play checkers, each person gets to move two checkers on their turn, instead of just one, I would not expect to be told that I was a "blasphemer", but I would expect someone to tell me that what I was playing was no longer "checkers".

 

I might enjoy it more, but the problem is, once I am used to playing this way, I can basically only play with other members of my family, or people that I "convert" to my new game.

 

That can be a problem, unless you are the GM, and you plan to game with the same people "forever".

 

Otherwise, you are teaching them a mode of play that will not be compatible with other Hero players.

 

This is not some kind of sin, but it is not necessarily the best way to go either.

 

KA

 

I understand where you are coming from, and that is the problem with house rules in general. People play with a lot of house rules in various rpgs, and in Hero, many do things like change the cost of STR, Damage Shield, etc. Generally I do not make those sorts of changes to my games so that people's characters stay comparable with book products and others that people might make with the system. However, I do make the occasional rules change that doesn't affect anything outside my game, and let the players know that it is a rule change, for instance, allowing attack then move. Then they know it is a house rule, but at least their characters aren't hosed by moving to another GM's game where changes like the cost of fundamental mechanics have been done.

 

As a side note, for FH, the way I have run it is if you are in face-to-face combat, and want to attack, but then move (e.g., a fighting retreat, which SHOULD be allowed), I allow the character to take their half move backward, but only at half speed if they want to continue to face their enemy. Thus, someone with a Running of 8" has a half move of 4" but wants to back away from their opponent after a half-phase attack, they can move backward 2" (half their half move) and still be facing their opponent. Alternatively, they could simply turn their back and run, but then their opponent could do a nasty move-thru from behind with appropriate DCV penalties for not facing them.