Comic Characters My Versions (5th Edition)

[dean day]

For fun and eventually when I plan on doing in the far future a gonzo shared DC/Image/Marvel campaign for my players (we are currently knee deep in a Warhammer 4th edition campaign) I am going to post here my versions of well known and sometimes more obscure characters from the main comics publishers.

 

I will be building them using Hero Designer and I have not regularly played a hero game for many years, so I would love some feedback if you think I could have done things differently or better with the builds or if you think I have forgotten anything with the characters themselves.

 

I am going to try to make the builds as internally consistent against each other as possible so they make sense and "feel right". To help me do this I am going to keep spreadsheets comparing characters stats against each other so I can model them easier by comparing and contrasting as I go.

 

As to design philosophy I have my own definite thoughts on levels given to stats like DEXTERITY and SPEED, skill levels and power levels etc. But I will make as I say everyone as consistent against each other as possible.

So please before you post saying character X's dexterity is far too low, etc, etc please read the posts below of me explaining where I am coming from on the stat and power levels.

 

One general point is the builds will be an overall snap shot of the character and not one particularly from present day comics. My main comic reading period was the 70's to the 90's (I am old) and although I am open to recent developments on characters, I am more looking at a "classic" take on each character sometimes maybe combining elements or doing multiple versions of them, but also sometimes ignoring versions of characters I did not like.

For example my favorite version of Hank Pym was always when he was Yellowjacket, but I may do other versions of him, down the road.

 

Hopefully this thread will build into a nice database of characters over time.

[dean day]

Statistic and Power Levels For the Builds

I dont know if this is still a thing, but over the years Champions published characters would fall under certain patterns for stats which sometimes I did not like and overall I felt the stats were too high, especially when looking at both dexterity and speed. On the other side of the coin I felt Strength too many times would fall around the 60 mark, so lets look at these in turn.

 

Overall power level in damage dice

I want to simulate a greater common range of power level than was common in Champions back in say 4th edition. the higher damage levels say 15d to 20d will be more common in these builds depending obviously on the character and some  (powerful villains, top tier powerful heroes) will go way beyond that. That said I also want to keep street heroes at the correct level, but I am going to build many characters as very much glass cannons if they need to be.

 

Defenses

Pd and Ed levels will not commonly be artificially raised in builds unless there is a real reason to do so and increased defenses for combat luck or great willpower will probably be given to the most famous and iconic heroes to simulate the fact they have something special that allows them to come through in fights, but it wont be the norm instead reserved for the real comics superstars such as Batman and Spidey.

This will mean obviously fights will be much shorter in my campaign eventually and I am fine with that, as I previously said many characters will then be glass cannons going down quickly if tagged but able to be very offensively damaging themselves (Cyclops I am looking at you!).

 

Dexterity

I will be lowering DEX across the board if characters are considered to be more or less normal humans. I never liked the fact that the most common DEX scores were around 22-23 and slow was considered 18. I will dial it right back to the average human being 10 and anything over 30 is considered superhuman. However looking at the 6th edition tables on page 72 of the champions book, I love those ranges, but wil lenforce them much more strictly so characters fall between average to competent much more with only a few exceptional heroes going into the legendary range on DEX.

 

Speed

Again in Champions write ups over the years a speed of 5 seemed bog standard and 4 was slow and 6 considered fast. Again I want to dial this back a bit so a 6 would be considered very fast and reactive and slow would be considered much more down the line and common at a 2 with averages more 3-4. Again to use a wider range of speeds and make the superhuman speed guys that much more special.

 

Strength

Going to be really careful with the street hero/ normal strength characters to differentiate them more, so a character say like the Human Torch will not be given strength of much better than say skilled 11-13 also taking into account build and gender so when we get to the real street heroes such as Daredevil, Nightwing etc they still stand out.

 

Martial Arts & Combat Skill Levels

In comics recently it seems that everyone has training in Martial Arts these days, However I want to be careful in again showing the difference between this and and the real martial artist experts, so will be keeping a real tight rein on combat levels.

 

Contacts

The builds will be contact heavy to show heroes allies and history whenever possible.

 

Enemies

I will be limiting this disadvantage to maybe one or two arch enemies for the heroes and then a generalized rogues gallery disadvantage to not overload with enemies, for example Cap would have the Red Skull as his arch enemy then a rogues gallery representing villains like Batroc, Crossbones, Arnim Zola etc.

 

Cross Universe Levels

I want the characters to make sense and be competitive across the main comics universe so that obviously means many DC characters will be reduced in stats and raw power compared to their marvel counterparts, this obviously means characters like Superman who I want to be on a rough par with Thor and Hulk from Marvel. This is going to be a bit of a juggling act obviously as both universes operate under different power levels sometimes but I want them to be broadly comparable as I will be using them in the same Universe.

 

That is enough rambling for now, i will add to my thinking as different bits come up.

[dean day]

 

Character Name: The Thing Alternate Identities: Ben Grimm Player Name: NPC herologo.jpg CHARACTERISTICS Val Char Base Points Total Roll Notes 90 STR 10 80 90 27- HTH Damage 18d6 END [4] 15 DEX 10 15 15 12- OCV 5 DCV 5 50 CON 10 80 50 19-   50 BODY 10 80 50 19-   18 INT 10 8 18 13- PER Roll 13- 25 EGO 10 30 25 14- ECV: 8 45 PRE 10 35 45 18- PRE Attack: 9d6 3 COM 10 -3 3 10-                               50 PD 18 32 50   50 PD (50 rPD) 40 ED 10 30 40   40 ED (40 rED) 4 SPD 2.5 15 4   Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12 28 REC 28 0 28     100 END 100 0 100     120 STUN 120 0 120     6" Running 6 0 10"     2" Swimming 2 0 2"     18" Leaping 18 0 18" 402 Total Characteristics Points CHARACTER IMAGE the_thing.jpg   EXPERIENCE POINTS Total earned: 372 Spent: 372 Unspent: 0 Base Points: 200 Disad Points: 165 Total Points: 737 MOVEMENT Type Total Run (6) 10" [20" NC] Swim (2) 2" [4" NC] H. Leap (18") 18" V. Leap (9") 9" DEFENSES Type Amount Physical Defense 50 Res. Phys. Defense 50 Energy Defense 40 Res. Energy Defense 40 Mental Defense 0 Power Defense 5   COMBAT INFORMATION OCV: 5 DCV: 5   Combat Skill Levels: +8 with Martial Maneuvers COMBAT MANEUVERS Maneuver Phase OCV DCV Effect Block 1/2 +0 +0 Block, abort Brace 0 +2 1/2 +2 vs. Range Mod. Disarm 1/2 -2 +0 Can disarm Dodge 1/2 -- +3 Abort, vs. all attacks Grab 1/2 -1 -2 Grab two limbs Grab By 1/2 -3 -4 Move and Grab Haymaker 1/2* +0 -5 +4 DC attack damage Move By 1/2 -2 -2 STR/2 + v/5 Move Through 1/2 -v/5 -3 STR + v/3 Set 1 +1 +0 Ranged Attacks only Strike 1/2 +0 +0 STR or weapon Basic Strike 1/2 +1 +0 20d6 Strike Charge 1/2 +0 -2 20d6 +v/5 Strike, FMove Crush 1/2 +0 +0 22d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab Martial Block 1/2 +2 +2 Block, Abort Martial Escape 1/2 +0 +0 105 STR vs. Grabs Martial Grab 1/2 -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 100 STR for holding on Martial Strike 1/2 +0 +2 20d6 Strike Offensive Strike 1/2 -2 +1 22d6 Strike Reversal var -1 -2 105 STR to Escape; Grab Two Limbs Root 1/2 +0 +0 105 STR to resist Shove; Block, Abort Takedown 1/2 +1 +1 18d6 Strike; Target Falls COMBAT MODIFIERS Range 0-4 5-8 9-16 17-32 33-64 65-128 RMOD 0 -2 -4 -6 -8 -10 Targeting shot OCV Hit Location Head shot (Head to Shoulders) -4 1d6+3 High shot (Head to Vitals) -2 2d6+1 Body shot (Hands to Legs) -1 2d6+4 Low shot (Shoulders to Feet) -2 2d6+7 Leg shot (Vitals to Feet) -4 1d6+12   Character Name: The Thing Alternate Identities: Ben Grimm Player Name: NPC herologo.jpg SKILLS Cost  Name 17 Combat Piloting 19- 7 Combat Driving 14- 24 +8 with Martial Maneuvers 2 Saxaphone: Musical Instrument Familiarity 12- 3 Navigation (Air, Space) 13- 5 Parachuting 13- 13 Super Strength Tricks: Power 16- 2 Streetwise 10- 15 Fantastic Four: Teamwork 18- 4 TF: Combat Aircraft, Early Spacecraft, Large Planes, Small Planes, Spaceplanes 92 Total Skills Cost PERKS Cost  Name 33 Superhuman Community: Contact (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has extremely useful Skills or resources, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact limited by identity, Good relationship with Contact), Organization Contact (x3) (33 Active Points) 15- Notes: The Thing knows everyone! 3 Member of the Fantastic Four: Reputation (A large group) 14-, +1/+1d6 36 Total Perks Cost   POWERS Cost  Power END 10 Tough Rocky Hide: Physical Damage Reduction, 25% 0 10 Tough Rocky Hide: Energy Damage Reduction, 25% 0 45 Impossible to Kill: Damage Resistance (50 PD/40 ED) 0 6 Big and Heavy: Knockback Resistance -3" 0 32 Tough as Hell: Life Support (Extended Breathing: 1 END per Minute; Immunity All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents; Longevity: Immortal; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat) 0 22 Endless Endurance: Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (22 Active Points) applied to STR   6 Protected Hearing: Hearing Group Flash Defense (6 points) 0 5 Hard to Effect: Power Defense (5 points) 0 20 Rocky Hide: Lack Of Weakness (-20) for Resistant Defenses 0 8 Faster Than He Looks: Running +4" (10" total) 1 164 Total Powers Cost MARTIAL ARTS MANEUVERS Cost  Maneuver 3 Basic Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, 20d6 Strike 4 Charge: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -2 DCV, 20d6 +v/5 Strike, FMove 4 Crush: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 22d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab 4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort 4 Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 105 STR vs. Grabs 3 Martial Grab: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 100 STR for holding on 4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 20d6 Strike 5 Offensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 22d6 Strike 4 Reversal: var Phase, -1 OCV, -2 DCV, 105 STR to Escape; Grab Two Limbs 4 Root: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 105 STR to resist Shove; Block, Abort 3 Takedown: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, 18d6 Strike; Target Falls 1 Weapon Element: Homemade Weapons Notes: This represents, lamposts, vehicles, etc. 43 Total Martial Arts Cost   Character Name: The Thing Alternate Identities: Ben Grimm Player Name: NPC herologo.jpg DISADVANTAGES Cost  Disadvantage 15 Dependent NPC: Alicia Masters 8- (Incompetent) 15 Enraged: When Alicia is threatened or when annoyed by the Human Torch (Very Common), go 8-, recover 14- 0 Hunted: The Yancy Street Gang 8- (Less Pow; Limited Geographical Area; PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find; Mildly Punish) 20 Hunted: Fantastic Four Rogues Gallery 11- (Less Pow; NCI; PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find; Harshly Punish) 5 Physical Limitation: Large Rocky Hide (Infrequently; Slightly Impairing) 25 Psychological Limitation: Code Against Killing (Very Common; Total) 15 Psychological Limitation: Overconfident (Very Common; Moderate) 15 Psychological Limitation: Hates his Rocky Orange Form (Very Common; Moderate) 15 Reputation: member of the Fantastic Four, 14- 10 Rivalry: Professional and Romantic, The Human Torch, Rival is As Powerful, Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival, Rival Aware of Rivalry 15 Social Limitation: Public Identity (Frequently; Major) 15 Distinctive Features: Rocky Orange Monster (Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses) 165 Total Disadvantages Cost APPEARANCE Hair Color: Bald Eye Color: Blue Height: 1.86 m Weight: 228.00 kg Description: Character created with Hero Designer (version 20220312)

 

 

The Thing.HTML

[Tech]

After everything you mentioned, I look at this version of Ben Grim and wonder if you overdid it. I haven't read any Fantastic Four comics for a long time I admit so maybe the Thing's changed. However, I have to say I never thought he had more than an 80 Str. The +8 Levels with Martial Arts seems overly generous: at most I'd give him 5 lvls. I don't recall him ever being worthy of a 25 Ego and his Pre is way too high - with that, people will be fainting with him just walking into the room. I don't think he needs that much Body with the defenses you've given him; wow.

[LoneWolf]

According to the old guides I had published by Marvel in the 80’s Thing was able to lift about 80 tons.  That should put his STR around 60 not 90.  90 STR is able to lift 6.4 Ktons.  Thing should be something a player could play especially the earlier versions, not something that can defeat anyone.   Champions was designed to simulate this type of stuff.  Something may be out of reach of players, but the Thing is not one of them.

[Tech]

Lone Wolf, I never paid attention to the old guides by Marvel. According to that, the Hulk and Thor could lift 100 tons, so by that standard they also had around 60 Str.

[LoneWolf]

The Hulk states in his description that he starts out at that range and gets even stronger when he gets angry.   The Thing is not that strong, nor is he that good in combat or the skills you gave him.   This character is way too powerful for the thing.   But at the same time his other defenses are kind of low. 

 

What is the point of writing something up if it can never be used in a game.  Unless you all the characters are at that level in your game this write up is pointless.  If all the characters in your game are at that level the game you are running is so far out of the norm that they have no relevance to anyone else. 

 

I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, I am just wondering what the purpose of these posts are?  

[Joe Walsh]

Wouldn't sharing a creative effort with those who are interested be enough reason?

 

 

[dean day]

15 hours ago, Tech said:

After everything you mentioned, I look at this version of Ben Grim and wonder if you overdid it. I haven't read any Fantastic Four comics for a long time I admit so maybe the Thing's changed. However, I have to say I never thought he had more than an 80 Str. The +8 Levels with Martial Arts seems overly generous: at most I'd give him 5 lvls. I don't recall him ever being worthy of a 25 Ego and his Pre is way too high - with that, people will be fainting with him just walking into the room. I don't think he needs that much Body with the defenses you've given him; wow.

Well the stats will make more sense as I do more write ups as I said in the original post as they are all relative to each other. The strength level is to get him to just below the characters who will be placed at a 100ish (Thor, Hercules, calm Hulk etc).

 

With the combat skill levels he is considered one of the greatest fighters in the Marvel uni and with such a low Dex and the maneuvers I gave him he will be hit aplenty but will also be hitting back, the combat skill level range I will be giving out is 1-12. So this places him just off top tier with 8.

 

The ego represents his huge willpower than is often seen and spoken about. 

 

He is one of the most experienced and powerful heroes in the marvel uni and my FF overall will be one of the premier groups, as they should be. 

14 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

According to the old guides I had published by Marvel in the 80’s Thing was able to lift about 80 tons.  That should put his STR around 60 not 90.  90 STR is able to lift 6.4 Ktons.  Thing should be something a player could play especially the earlier versions, not something that can defeat anyone.   Champions was designed to simulate this type of stuff.  Something may be out of reach of players, but the Thing is not one of them.

Yes he has improved since then, also I didn't want to put him too far under a calm Hulk, to represent they are such an even match for each other in their classic brawls over the years.

[dean day]

13 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The Hulk states in his description that he starts out at that range and gets even stronger when he gets angry.   The Thing is not that strong, nor is he that good in combat or the skills you gave him.   This character is way too powerful for the thing.   But at the same time his other defenses are kind of low. 

 

What is the point of writing something up if it can never be used in a game.  Unless you all the characters are at that level in your game this write up is pointless.  If all the characters in your game are at that level the game you are running is so far out of the norm that they have no relevance to anyone else. 

 

I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, I am just wondering what the purpose of these posts are?  

LOL, why could this not be used in a game? all stas are relative to each other are they not? and this will become apparent as I keep posting more characters. You could do versions of many characters hundreds and hundreds of points part, that does not make any version non valid, it all depends on how they stack up with other characters in your game.

 

I have not taken it disrespectfully, you are contributing to the thread and I thank you for that, the purpose is to share the posts with others as my version of the universes and I promise you they will match up relative to each other.

 

11 hours ago, GM Joe said:

Wouldn't sharing a creative effort with those who are interested be enough reason?

 

 

Well yes! We may often disagree on character visions, but no one is really right or wrong it is just interpretation. For me what is most important is how they model against each other. It is the same in the comics different creative teams write characters in different ways with the spill over of power increases or decreases before the next writer comes along.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

I would not put Thor or a calm Hulk at 100 STR.  Hulk at full rage I can see being at a hundred STR, but not starting out.  Thing starting out is probably about 50 STR and at his strongest would probably be about 70. Unlike a lot of bricks he actually does know martial arts, so does not need to be as strong.  Part of the damage he does is because he knows how to use his STR better than they do.

 

As to not being able to use it in a game, what I meant was not being able to use it in anyone else’s game.  You could add an extra 0 to everyone’s STR and adjust the defenses and it would work out.  But means you cannot use the character in any other game without doing the same thing. That is what I see being done.  It seems the character you are writing up are so far from the baseline Champions they cannot be used in a normal champions game.  I would lower your STR of your characters by about 20 points.  Making these character useable in a standard Champions game would be more helpful to others. 

 

I also see the same thing happening with other things like OCV and martial arts.  That is one reason I prefer 6th edition.  Divorcing OCV from DEX allows you to create a low DEX character with good OCV.  It also allows you to have characters that don’t have the same OCV as they do DCV.  Sometimes a character should be better at hitting than avoiding being hit. One thing a brick can do to deal with a high DCV character is hit them with large objects.  When the object is large enough to become an area of effect attack DCV no longer matters.  Give the Thing WE with large objects (need a better wording, but it is late)
 

[dean day]

8 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I would not put Thor or a calm Hulk at 100 STR.  Hulk at full rage I can see being at a hundred STR, but not starting out.  Thing starting out is probably about 50 STR and at his strongest would probably be about 70. Unlike a lot of bricks he actually does know martial arts, so does not need to be as strong.  Part of the damage he does is because he knows how to use his STR better than they do.

 

As to not being able to use it in a game, what I meant was not being able to use it in anyone else’s game.  You could add an extra 0 to everyone’s STR and adjust the defenses and it would work out.  But means you cannot use the character in any other game without doing the same thing. That is what I see being done.  It seems the character you are writing up are so far from the baseline Champions they cannot be used in a normal champions game.  I would lower your STR of your characters by about 20 points.  Making these character useable in a standard Champions game would be more helpful to others. 

 

I also see the same thing happening with other things like OCV and martial arts.  That is one reason I prefer 6th edition.  Divorcing OCV from DEX allows you to create a low DEX character with good OCV.  It also allows you to have characters that don’t have the same OCV as they do DCV.  Sometimes a character should be better at hitting than avoiding being hit. One thing a brick can do to deal with a high DCV character is hit them with large objects.  When the object is large enough to become an area of effect attack DCV no longer matters.  Give the Thing WE with large objects (need a better wording, but it is late)
 

Well thats where we probably differ on strength levels, starting PC's would be about 50-65 but I want my heavy hitters in the campaign to be well above that. As to if they are usable for other peoples campaigns, obviously my priority is my campaign and if people dont want to use them that's fine, that was not my motive for posting them anyway, but I would point out it takes minutes to amend characters to fit into their own personal campaign if they want to.

 

And as for being baseline champions, these are NPC's I am posting not PC's, If the thing on 700ish points will never be used, what does that say for the many, many official champions characters way above that level? Yes he is a powerful NPC, My supers campaigns have always been full of them.

Edited March 28, 2023 by dean day

[Sketchpad]

My two cents for what it's worth...

 

• I think his Dex is a bit high. I would say something closer to a 13, as his size does slow him down a bit.
• His Body seems a bit high as well. I've seen Ben take some serious damage throughout his lifetime, to the point where he was seriously injured. 
• His Int is waaaay too high. Ben's a smart guy, but 18? Maybe 11 or 12. Most of his smarts would be shown in skills over raw intelligence. 
• The same with his Ego and Pre. Ego should be buffered with Mental Defense, and while Ben is a likeable guy, his Pre should plateau around a 15 or so, and buffered with Rep and skills.
• I would lower his PD and ED a bit and supplement it with 50% rDR. He can take a LOT of damage, but maybe a 40/30 would be better?
• His Stun is a bit high as well. Again, he's taken some serious damage and has good defenses to start.
• I would raise the FF rep to 3d6 or 4d6. They are VERY popular and public. Additionally, I would give him "The Ever Lovin' Blue Eyed Thing" Rep at around 3d6. 
• Under his LS, I would drop Immortal and just extend his age. Some future stories show he suffers from some old age effects, it just takes a lot longer.
• I would increase his Power Defense, and give him 0 END with Strength (thus allowing for a lower END if needed).
• It's an interesting idea giving him the WE for martial arts, but have you considered giving him a STR Trick MP?
• Skip the Torch as a rival in general. That's just Ben and Johnny goofing off. I would say The Hulk would be more of a rival.
• His Rocky Form Disad should be more hindering, as it should also add his weight and general size. Things often have to be specially made for him.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

Ben was a combat pilot, and then an Astronaut candidate, so the INT is good where it is. 

[Sketchpad]

11 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Ben was a combat pilot, and then an Astronaut candidate, so the INT is good where it is. 

 

I disagree. His raw intelligence shouldn't be that high. Ben is more skilled than intelligent. Skills in Physics, Engineering, Biology and Math would suffice at the appropriate level. YMMV, mind you.

 

EDIT: Using the same concept, I wouldn't give Hal Jordan an 18 INT either. Hal is a bit creative, but he's more skilled than raw smarts. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Sketchpad