Transform Question

[LoneWolf]

The problem is that a mental transformation will not put someone to sleep, sleeping is a physical state.  A mental transformation would make the character think they are sleeping, but not actually fall asleep.  It would more than likely make a person think they are in a dream.  They would still be awake and aware of what is going on and even be able to act.   

 

The other thing is that even if you use a mental transformation the target will be aware of the fact that you have put them to sleep.  Unless you buy the power with the advantage invisible power effects the target of your power is aware of the fact they have been affected by a power.  This is true even if you are using a mental power on someone who does not have mental sense.   A mental transformation can change targets memories, but that has nothing to do with sleeping and would require a separate transformation.  

 

A mental transformation would not make the mind become unreachable.  That would be EDM usable as an attack with a leaves the body behind.   A sleeping mind is able to be reached with mental powers. 

 

A mental transformation does not give it any advantages over a standard transformation except it goes vs EGO and alter the persons mentally not physically.  The cost of transformation is the same no matter what variant you are using.  You are giving mental transformation way too many advantages for free.

 

The spiritual transformation to a frog would probably end up changing your class of mind to animal.   

 

The reason I suggested mind control is that it can accomplish everything you want it to.  It can force the target to fall asleep.  By getting +20 on the result, it will seem like it was the targets idea to fall asleep.  If you want to use transformation buy it as standard transformation and take the advantage invisible power effects so the target does not realize they have been put to sleep.      
 

Edited June 29, 2023 by LoneWolf

[MrAgdesh]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

The problem is that a mental transformation will not put someone to sleep, sleeping is a physical state.  A mental transformation would make the character think they are sleeping, but not actually fall asleep.  It would more than likely make a person think they are in a dream.  They would still be awake and aware of what is going on and even be able to act.   

 

The other thing is that even if you use a mental transformation the target will be aware of the fact that you have put them to sleep.  Unless you buy the power with the advantage invisible power effects the target of your power is aware of the fact they have been affected by a power.  This is true even if you are using a mental power on someone who does not have mental sense.   A mental transformation can change targets memories, but that has nothing to do with sleeping and would require a separate transformation.  

 

A mental transformation would not make the mind become unreachable.  That would be EDM usable as an attack with a leaves the body behind.   A sleeping mind is able to be reached with mental powers. 

 

A mental transformation does not give it any advantages over a standard transformation except it goes vs EGO and alter the persons mentally not physically.  The cost of transformation is the same no matter what variant you are using.  You are giving mental transformation way too many advantages for free.

 

The spiritual transformation to a frog would probably end up changing your class of mind to animal.   

 

The reason I suggested mind control is that it can accomplish everything you want it to.  It can force the target to fall asleep.  By getting +20 on the result, it will seem like it was the targets idea to fall asleep.  If you want to use transformation buy it as standard transformation and take the advantage invisible power effects so the target does not realize they have been put to sleep.      
 

 

Sleep is not an exclusively physical state.  Wikipedia defines Sleep as; "a state of reduced mental and physical activity, in which consciousness is altered, and sensory activity is inhibited to a certain extent."

 

But I suspect that we are debating things more from a dramatic and narrative sense. Nothing in the game says where your original mind 'goes' when its Transformed  - that's left for the GM to interpret. It might be a certain dimension/personal dreamscape whatever. I would rule that if its gone to such a place, regular mental powers won't reach it unless they can be used transdimensionally or, said mentalist can travel to said dimension physically and use their mental powers whilst there.

 

As such, we aren't going to agree I think. I can see that your Mind Control approach has merit. I can see that my original NND STUN attack has merit. Its just options playing out and I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here, personally. I guess it's what boils down to whatever works in your own (or GM's) game.

 

If I ever play in your game I'd run Mind Control past you. 🙂

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

See how abandoning the three types of transform eliminates this kind of thing?  How the 3 stage bit adds a needless complication?  And how it violates the concept of "if you can make them dead, you can make them anything else" as the base concept of transform?  Now you have to make the 3 times as dead to make them something completely.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[MrAgdesh]

So, to reiterate… for those of you using 4E and earlier, if i have a spell that transforms the target into a frog then presumably I get just that? A frog that has no connection to its previous form? It’s got frog DNA, a frog mind, it has the soul of a frog? 

 

If I want to have the target aware of its predicament (I want the target to know he’s been cursed) I stick a Limitation on the power?

[Cloppy Clip]

Looking at my 4E book, it seems fairly clear-cut that a successful Transform lets you do pretty much whatever you want with the target, for the reasons explained earlier in the thread. So if you want a frog with the mind of a human then you can have such, but if you want the frog to be just a plain frog then you can do that too. In your example of the Sleep spell, you'd be perfectly justified putting the mind to sleep as well as the body, so I think you can argue for a Limitation. It'd depend on how much the target could do while under the Spell: if they can only use their Mental powers in a campaign where most characters won't have Mental powers then it's not likely to make much of a difference, so I'd call that a -0 Limitation. But, if Mental powers were more common in your campaign, or if they could use their mental activity to try and fight off the Sleep spell somehow then that would justify an actual Limitation, in my opinion.

 

What that Limitation would be, I'm going to cheerfully bow out and leave to the experts to hash out of course!

 

By the way, thank you for the breakdown of the different Transforms @LoneWolf; I'd actually just been thinking earlier today that I wasn't quite sure what a Spiritual Transform was supposed to do, so that clears it up for me. Of course, I think I'll do as Christopher suggests and go back to the 4E model of one Transform power. Mental and Spiritual variants can be thought of as the delivery method for the power without affecting the target result, which I feel is cleaner and opens the game up to more potential builds for this power.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If I want to have the target aware of its predicament (I want the target to know he’s been cursed) I stick a Limitation on the power?

 

Its up to you how complete the transform is when you build the power.  A GM might give you a limitation for only affecting the frog's mind, but I'd be hesitant to do so, given the nature and cost of transformation.

[Duke Bushido]

15 hours ago, MrAgdesh said:

 

So, for those of you using 4E and earlier, if i have a spell that transforms the target into a frog then presumably I get just that? A frog that has no connection to its previous form?

 

 

 

 

 

If you are using 2e or 3e either one,  and with Champions 3, then yes:  you get a frog.  You paid "make it a corpse" points for your T-form (essentially T-form was a re-branded Killing Attack at 15 pts per die), so you could decide to turn it into anything that would have been as convenient and useful as the target's corpse.   Dead guy?  Live frog?   Same thing, in the grand scheme of things.

 

I would have to peruse 4e to answer there; it has been some time since I read it, and we really never did much with it except pull out some adders and modifiers we liked and kept rocking 2e.

 

 

[MrAgdesh]

I am reminded of the plight of Prince Kassim in Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger (1977) where he is transformed into a baboon via Zenobia's Curse, yet retains his mind (at least in the short term - IIRC the longer he spends in the form the more permanent it will become).

 

If I wasn't using three trait Transform I would allow Transform to take a small Limitation if it left the mind intact,  because the target would have some way to inform you of its situation - tracing 'Help!' in the mud, hopping to the nearest King's castle in hopes of smooching his daughter etc.