Transform Question

[MrAgdesh]

I'm building a Sleep Spell (Conscious target into Sleeping one). The way I'm figuring it is that if I do this successfully via a Mental Transformation then I put you to sleep. If somebody uses telepathy on you for example, they'll get "Zzzzz" until you either heal from it or the reverse condition is met. If I do it Physically (i.e., a standard Transformation attack against BODY) then I still put you to sleep but any mental communication would allow for you to say "Hey guys! I've been magically Slept!".

 

So, based on this logic, if you transform a Mentalist physically (i.e., via BODY) into say, a chair, do you then have a chair that can still use its Mentalist powers? I presume so.

[Tech]

The problem with Transformation is that the amount of dice needed may be considerable to do that on the average. Go with a Mental Paralysis with a limitation, can be woken up instantly by outside help. That should be cheaper. 'Course, depending on how deep a sleep, being woken up by outside help may not be a limitation because they can't - the sleeper has to wake themselves up.

[MrAgdesh]

I appreciate the alternate suggestion. This is not your typical D&D type “Sleep” though it is a bardic lullaby of fairytale type proportion. It takes effect gradually as the bard continues to play. 

[MrAgdesh]

Hmm. Similar to my first question, does a Mental Paralysis simply affect you physically (i.e., holds you on the spot, stops you talking) but you can still fire off any of your Mentalist Powers while thus 'paralysed'?

[Grailknight]

The Mental Paralysis doesn't stop you from using your Powers against the Entangle but you can't attack anything else without breaking through the Entangle to reach it.

 

This sounds more like a Cumulative Mind Control than a Transformation though.

[MrAgdesh]

16 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

The Mental Paralysis doesn't stop you from using your Powers against the Entangle but you can't attack anything else without breaking through the Entangle to reach it.

 

This sounds more like a Cumulative Mind Control than a Transformation though.

 

Your Mental Paralysis example makes perfect sense. 

 

Re: the Sleep, the chance of a Breakout roll(s) is not what I'm after. 

[Tom Cowan]

a lot of 'Sleep' spells are written up as drain stun.

[MrAgdesh]

3 hours ago, Tom Cowan said:

a lot of 'Sleep' spells are written up as drain stun.

I initially wrote the Sleep Spell as a Constant Area of Effect NND where the defence was LS: Does not need sleep, being deaf, earplugs etc. I moved away from it being STUN based mainly due to the reason that when you wake up from sleep - as opposed to being knocked unconscious - you shouldn’t really be on zero END let alone zero STUN.

The character conception was more that the spell should be more along the lines of epic fairytale (‘Sleeping Beauty’) kind of power. There are still the caveats in place that it won’t affect certain ‘protected’  targets but I think Transform works more elegantly overall. 
 

The main question I have regards do I do it via Body or Mind, with my reasons given in the opening post. 

[Doc Democracy]

Have you considered a Suppress STUN, allowing the 0 END as waking someone up is most common effect you can imagine?

 

You might choose to make it a small cumulative effect, possibly invisible effect, to allow the effects to creep up on the target without them realising they are under attack.

 

So, over time the Suppress STUN grows to the point the target is asleep and stays that way until someone wakes them up.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, MrAgdesh said:

 I moved away from it being STUN based mainly due to the reason that when you wake up from sleep - as opposed to being knocked unconscious - you shouldn’t really be on zero END let alone zero STUN.
 

 

 

Thank you!

 

Every time this subject comes up, I point that out as a problem-- even after a single recovery, an opponent can slap them right back to sleep (which is hilarious, by the way) any time they start to stir.

 

And when you are asleep, you really have nothing to do but take recoveries, right?  So when do you wake up?  Positive STUN?  "Post Twelve, adventurers!  Wakey, wakey!  Hands off Snakey!"

 

Or do we concoct some sort of delayed autofire or Trigger to keep them out for a bit?  And there is still the damage problem:  "well, I just took a nap, so I am ludicrously low on hit points for the next xouole od hours..."

 

I tried EGO drain a couple of times, but similar issues: everyone wakes up as more or less zombies, vulnerable to any command (which is also hilarious, but not in the visceral slap-them-back-to-sleep kind of way that "drain damage-soaking characteristics" produces.

 

Eventually, I settled on Sleep spells as very specific Mind Control spells, with modifiers to the breakout rolls and possible ligering effects (groggy for two phases; 1/2 CV, -2 to PER, -2 to Dec Rolls- whatever) as appropriate to the individual spell (basic Sleep spells usually last for a specific brief period and upon waking, the victim is very much aware that he was affectes by a sleep spell, etc-  lots of imperfections in the spell make it affordable and provides some utility without making it a walk-through-the-snoring-army" kind of thing.  In all cases, taking any damage will immediately break the spell (I learned that one after running with a brand new player to a newish group: our dedicated sorcerer came from a deeply murder-hobo group that had fizzled out after their GM moved and no one else wanted to run.  (Which I totally get!  If I knew ahead of time that I had to spend hours a week building something that my players would burn to the ground, i'd be hard-pressed to volunteer for the position myself.)

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah you can use stun adjustment, too.  Put someone down far enough in their STN and they are out cold with no conscious thought.  People tend to think of stun loss as pain, but it doesn't have to be. Its loss of consciousness, which can hurt or not based on side effect.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[LoneWolf]

Another way to do this would be a mind control.  This has the advantage of working better on targets that are out of combat and tired.  Apply the cumulative advantage to make it something that takes time to take effect.     This allows you to use only a few dice but be able to eventually cause anyone to fall asleep.   A 2d6 mind cumulative mind control is only 15 active points.  It also makes the power harder to detect since mental power are only detectable by the mental sense group.   You could even make it invisible to mental for dirt cheap.  The 2d6 invisible cumulative mind control is only 17 active points.  

 

The drawback on this is that using this on someone who is in combat is almost always going to be something the target is violently opposed to doing.  On the other hand, out of combat it can be much easier.  If you are using it out of combat on someone who is tired it is probably going to be considered something the target is inclined to do anyways.  If the target is relaxed and not doing anything it will often be something he wouldn’t mind doing.  It also gives you the option to make the target think it was their idea.  By continuing the spell you can make it so the target sleeps longer.   Waking up will require a breakout roll to even attempt it.   

 

Sleep 2d6 Mind Control +1/2 cumulative, +1/4 invisible, +1/4 telepathic, active cost 20 points.   

 

The problem with the mental paralysis is that the target is still aware of what is going on around them.  
 

[MrAgdesh]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The drawback on this is that using this on someone who is in combat is almost always going to be something the target is violently opposed to doing.  On the other hand, out of combat it can be much easier.  
 

 

I'd be using it in combat, generally.

 

But everyone, thanks for the responses on ways to build my spell 🙂 but I'm not looking for that.

 

My question regards Body, Mind, Spirit Transforms. I'll ask the Rules Mavens. 

[Asperion]

19 hours ago, MrAgdesh said:

I appreciate the alternate suggestion. This is not your typical D&D type “Sleep” though it is a bardic lullaby of fairytale type proportion. It takes effect gradually as the bard continues to play. 

 

Since you stated that this works over a period of time,  have you looked into DOT? While it gets confusing,  it does make for effects that people will not be suddenly hit with in one sudden blow. 

[LoneWolf]

A standard transformation changes you physically into something else.  If the form would lack one of your abilities you no longer have it.  It does not matter what the special effect is.  So, turning someone into a chair will usually cause them to lose their mental powers.  

 

A mental transformation changes how you mind works.  It is usual changes psychological complications.  With it you could cause someone to hate a particular group or object.  This is often done to create a long-term mental power.  With it you could turn someone a devoted follower, or alter their belief system.

 

A spiritual transformation is pretty rare and alters the character soul.  You could use this to dam a creature to hell or change it into a demon or angle.  This would not give it any of the physical or mental aspect of an angle or demon but can change how other powers affect it.  For example, if you change something into a demon, powers that only work vs demons would affect the character.  In all honesty this is almost never used.

 

If I use the standard transformation to change someone into a demon they would gain the physical aspects of a demon, but they would retain their own mind, and would not be considered a demon for spells that affect demons.  

 

If I use a mental transformation to change a character into a demon, his mind becomes that of a demon, but he does not gain any of the physical traits, nor is he considered a demon for spells that target demons.  He thinks and behaves like a demon, but gains none of the powers of a demon.

 

If I use a spiritual transformation the character would be treated as a demon by powers that target a demon.  He would not gain any of the demons powers, nor would his behavior or beliefs change.    

 

If you are using a transformation to a sleeping target using a standard transformation is more appropriate than a mental transformation.  
 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

A standard transformation changes you physically into something else.  If the form would lack one of your abilities you no longer have it.  It does not matter what the special effect is.  So, turning someone into a chair will usually cause them to lose their mental powers.  

 

 

6E1 305, last paragraph on the page:

 

Quote

A single Transform can only affect one of these three traits. For example, a Transform can affect a target’s Body (change a person into a chair), but cannot take away his Mind or Spirit (the chair will still be sentient, alive, and have a human spirit).

 

The "abilities" you refer to are abilities based on your body, by that statement.  Transform someone with wings into a chair, they can't fly any more.  They have really limited normal senses as a chair...but their mind's intact, and IMO that says they can use mental powers. 

[LoneWolf]

A chair would not have a SPD so would not be able to make an attack.  That is going to limit their ability to use any power.   It will also not have any senses so will usually not have a targeting sense to establish line of sight.  It would probably not have an END or Recovery either which would prevent it from using any power that required END.     

 

 

Changing it to a different form that has those stats might allow it to use mental powers.  The special effect of the mental powers will also come into play here.   If the characters mental powers are because they are an enlightened character who achieved a state of awareness that transcends their bodies and are transformed into a cat, they are probably ok.   If they have a special device implanted in their brain that can broadcast thought, that is not going to work.   
 

[unclevlad]

Why does the chair have no SPD?  On what basis?  It can't *move*...and in most cases, it can't do anything, so it appears to have no SPD, but that's not the same thing.

 

I'll grant it has no sight, but if we're talking mental powers, which is the key here...that could be the targeting sense.

 

 

This is why I absolutely LOATHE Transform used like this.  Cuz you could be right too.  The rules are FAR, FAR too open-ended, ambiguous, and potentially even contradictory, as to what can or can't be done, and the potentially MASSIVE amount of indirect effects.  Shut down 200, 300 points worth of powers THAT easily?  Grossly ridiculous, IMO.  I'm looking at the recovery condition section...where it says Regen might help, oh, but the condition can be stated as "must be healed back at REC/Month."  WHAT???  And this is FREE, just because you say it's how it works?  YOU define the SFX and you can get a massive benefit?  

 

The rules WRT Transform aren't even half-baked, IMO.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Transformation should probably be the power of last resort.   If there is any reasonable way to write up the power without using transformation it should probably be done that way.  One thing to keep in mind about transformation is that for the most part if you can transform the character using a severe transformation you can probably kill it anyways.  So shutting down a character with a severe transformation is appropriately priced.  

 

The only reason I would use transformation for a sleep effect is if the power was designed to keep the target permanently asleep.   If the target can be woken up or will wake up eventually there are better ways to do this.   The only reason I see for using transformation for a seep effect would be a snow-white effect where the target will remain asleep until a release condition is performed.   If I had a player in a campaign, I ran who wanted a sleep spell that was not permanent, I would not allow it.   
 

[unclevlad]

My quibble would be that...yes, a severe Transform's priced at the same level as a killing attack, and each has to reach the same degree of effect...but resistant defense is rather more common than power defense.

 

I think it's a salient observation to put a severe Transform in the same class as killing attacks, for how frequent the GM should use one.  

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

The rules WRT Transform aren't even half-baked, IMO.

 

 

 

 

The original rules for Transformation Attack were pretty much perfect.  It was all the subsequent things, edition by edition, that peoole wanted to cram into T-form that led to the absolute mess we have now.

 

For my money, I still tend to stick with "for the same price as making a corpse, you can turn them into something else that is just as useful as their corpse, " and leave it alone.  I will build _ridiculously_ complicated things to avoid using T-form for anything more useful than a corpse:

 

Turn rocks into beef and potato stew?  Life support, useable by others, focus of opportunity, one meal only.

 

That sort of thing.   As alluded to by the previous poster, each attempt to "tweak" T-form-  for my money, starting with grading from "cosmetic" to "major," has just made it a bigger and bigger mess, not unlike EDM, where I can know EDM to the universe where we successfully did the thing and just keep going from there.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

If you ignore the rule that split up transforms into 3 types then 99% of the confusion and complication goes away, which is how I run it.

[unclevlad]

I like the secondary transforms for objects, where there's no atomic change.  Physical/chemical yes...convert the carbon dioxide in the air into graphite powder (pure carbon) and O2.  Lots of similar stuff, but a lot of it could be covered by Create Object now, with an SFX limitation that the material has to be on hand...somehow.  (You'd be amazed at what hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon alone can make, and of those, only carbon is marginally scarce in the air.) Disguise stuff can be set up with UOO Shape Shift.

[MrAgdesh]

I like the 5E/6E changes, personally, although combined Transforms to hit the traits will become almost impossible in campaigns that have AP limits or Requires a Roll based on APs, admittedly.

 

So, for those of you using 4E and earlier, if i have a spell that transforms the target into a frog then presumably I get just that? A frog that has no connection to its previous form?

 

If I want to have the target aware of its predicament I stick a Limitation on the power?

 

 

 

[MrAgdesh]

19 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If you are using a transformation to a sleeping target using a standard transformation is more appropriate than a mental transformation.  
 

 

I'd say that it depends upon what sort of effect you want.

 

A standard transformation of you to a sleeping target leaves you effectively trapped, but aware, that you've been 'put to sleep'. Telepathy would reach you and you would be able to convey this.

 

A mental transformation would leave you completely unaware. Your mind is pretty much unreachable (maybe certain powers with Trans-dimensional might work)  If and when the Transform goes away, you might remember a dream of some kind. 

 

A spiritual transform isn't really appropriate here as I'm only 'sleeping' you, not altering your soul.

 

With the analogy of a human cursed to frog;

 

1) Physical  - you become a frog, although your mind is intact and you are aware of your situation. Telepathy gets "Help! I've been turned into a frog!" Detect/Analyse Soul reveals its you.

2) Mental - you are a human that is hopping around, eating flies, and trying to be a frog. Telepathy used on you gets "<Gribbit>" in response. Detect/Analyse Soul reveals its you.

3) Spiritual - you are either a catatonic human or something similar in action to (2) based upon how the essence of a frog that suddenly finds itself in a new form reacts to that. Telepathy gets "?" from a very confused frog. Detect/Analyse Soul reveals its not you.