JLA: the animated series

[assault]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

A beginning character *shouldn't* be able to compete in the slightest with the JLA/Avengers analogues of their world. Thats kind of the whole point of such a team: the most powerful and/or experienced heroes in the world.

 

This simply isn't true.

 

First, it has nothing whatsoever to do with characters based on an animated series, where the stars are pretty close to being the _only_ supers in the world!

 

Secondly, the power levels represented in groups like the JLA and Avengers are wildly variable. It is _entirely_ possible for beginning characters to be more powerful than many of the members of these teams.

 

It is also possible for them to be more experienced than many members of these teams too, BTW. There is nothing to stop a beginning character from having had a twenty year long solo career before they start play. Of course, that will be offset against their power level, but that's a deal I'm quite willing to make in many cases.

 

And incidentally, neither the Avengers nor the JLA are the most experienced heroes in their respective worlds. Perhaps you've heard of the Fantastic Four and the Justice Society of America?

 

A final thought on experience and established teams: it's not at all uncommon for such teams to accept inexperienced members. And their power levels aren't necessarily all that high either.

[Metaphysician]

If your talking beginning characters in the 600-800 poiny range, well, yeah, you can hold your own with them. If you are comparing with the weakest members of both teams, than a 350-450 point character should be able to manage. However, when I hear "Beginning Level," I think "350 Points," and when I hear "JLA/Avengers," I think "Batman, Superman, Captain America, Thor." If you want beginning level characters to be up to that, then you need very point expensive beginning level characters.

 

As for the JSA and Fantastic Four: . They would kick your groups of beginning level characters, too.

 

Lastly, where the hell did you get the idea that the JL are the only heroes in their world?? Even excluding the mainly space-based heroes ( like the New Gods and the GL Corp ), you've got Nightwing, Robin, Supergirl, Steel, Dr Fate, Aquaman, Jason Blood, and a whole boatload of heroes to debut in Season 3.

[Mike W]

Okay, first. I'm not sure if the "arbitrarily" determined thing was directed at me or not. I can say that I never said anything of the sort.

 

Second, while I agree that beginning characters shouldn't be in the same league as most of the JLA/Avengers(we can all think of a few exceptions) - they shouldn't be so out of balance that they can't take a couple hits and at least get a bit of STUN through if for no other reason than the fact that putting the JLA/Avengers on that level removes all of their villains as potential foes for your group. After all, any villains tough enough to deal with large groups of 1000 point characters would have to be so powerful that the PC heroes couldn't hurt them unless there was some major power gaming going on.

 

Also, as assault pointed out, neither the Avengers nor the JLA could accept any newbies as members in such a world because a 350 point character is so outclassed among 1000 point monsters that they can't really help...particularly given how powerful the villains might be. They'd be nothing more than a liability to the team and would thus never be allowed on the field by any number of members of either team.

 

And it doesn't take anywhere near 1000 points to accurately represent the power level of these people. Most can be convincingly built on 600 if the overall power scale is compressed a bit - and yes - they'll still be ungodly powerful.

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by Mike W

Okay, first. I'm not sure if the "arbitrarily" determined thing was directed at me or not. I can say that I never said anything of the sort.

 

Second, while I agree that beginning characters shouldn't be in the same league as most of the JLA/Avengers(we can all think of a few exceptions) - they shouldn't be so out of balance that they can't take a couple hits and at least get a bit of STUN through if for no other reason than the fact that putting the JLA/Avengers on that level removes all of their villains as potential foes for your group. After all, any villains tough enough to deal with large groups of 1000 point characters would have to be so powerful that the PC heroes couldn't hurt them unless there was some major power gaming going on.

 

You are presuming that the PCs *should* be able to last more than a single hit from the JLA/Avengers, and that they *should* be able to do anything to villains that can challenge the JLA/Avengers-level teams. Neither of these are valid assumptions.

 

Also, as assault pointed out, neither the Avengers nor the JLA could accept any newbies as members in such a world because a 350 point character is so outclassed among 1000 point monsters that they can't really help...particularly given how powerful the villains might be. They'd be nothing more than a liability to the team and would thus never be allowed on the field by any number of members of either team.

And thus, they generally *aren't.* You are assuming that such teams recruit from beginning level characters. They don't. They recruit from characters who are either unusually powerful newbies, or already experienced.

 

And it doesn't take anywhere near 1000 points to accurately represent the power level of these people. Most can be convincingly built on 600 if the overall power scale is compressed a bit - and yes - they'll still be ungodly powerful.

 

If they are compressed, then they aren't accurate.

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by Mike W

Also, as assault pointed out, neither the Avengers nor the JLA could accept any newbies as members in such a world because a 350 point character is so outclassed among 1000 point monsters that they can't really help...particularly given how powerful the villains might be. They'd be nothing more than a liability to the team and would thus never be allowed on the field by any number of members of either team.

 

 

I don't buy that argument for a second. I'd reference you back to the JLA from the comic book (most recent series) placing Connor "Green Arrow" Hawke on the team. Compaired to Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter and Flash, this guy is incredibly outclassed in raw power and Batman would slap him around like a green shirted step child. Just because you can't hang with the big dogs in raw powers doesn't mean you are worthless. Connor essentially saved the whole league just by being in the right place at the right time and using one of his pops old boxing glove arrows to save the day.

Any GM worth his salt should be able to have something for anybody in the team to do regardless of power level. Having the big bad in the campaign constanly grabbing for the most vulnerable team members, although it would make real world sense, goes against genre staples.

[Metaphysician]

If nothing else, the use of lower powered characters is in their ability to deal with lower powered problems, thus freeing up the attention of the big guys.

 

I still stick to my original statement, re: new recruits, though. Even the weak guys like Green Arrow are pretty hefty, either due to high starting power ( including skill levels ), or prior experience and development.

[assault]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

You are presuming that the PCs *should* be able to last more than a single hit from the JLA/Avengers, and that they *should* be able to do anything to villains that can challenge the JLA/Avengers-level teams. Neither of these are valid assumptions.And thus, they generally *aren't.*

 

Of course many PCs should be able to "last more than a single hit" from Black Canary, the Atom, Green Arrow, Elongated Man, Hawkman, Aquaman, or, indeed, Batman. Flash too, come to think of it, but Flash never just hits you once.

 

As for villains: not all the JLA's villains are physically all that tough. Some are, of course. The ones that are _really_ tough are the interesting ones. The JLA seldom beats their top-end foes by dog-piling them. They usually end up keeping them busy until someone, usually one of the team's official thinkers, works out the proper way to beat them.

 

In other words, _most_ of the JLA's opponents are either not that physically formidable, or are so tough that even the JL has to outthink them. The cases where the JL's actual power level makes that much of a difference are comparatively rare. They happen, of course.

 

Marvel has historically been a little more fond of the "senses-shattering slugfest" than DC. As a result it is possible that the Avengers probably get into more comparatively evenly balanced combats than the JLA.

 

In any case, both groups are still scattered all over the map in terms of their power levels. _Anybody_ can be useful in their cases and conflicts. It _isn't_ necessary to be as powerful as Thor or Superman to be a member of the Avengers or JLA - and most of their members aren't.

 

Hmph. I'm just thinking about some of the clowns the Avengers have fought over the years. If beginning characters couldn't take them on, they shouldn't have begun!

 

Besides, I've read the first issue of the Avengers. Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, Ant-Man and the Wasp. Woo hoo. The Hulk disappeared next issue, and then it's Thor and his three little buddies, because this was very early Iron Man.

 

It's no wonder this team almost broke up a couple of issues later. If it wasn't for some guy they'd thawed out of an iceberg they would have.

[Mike W]

Metaphysician - I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I mean, the game I'm playing in now the JLA are generally built on 600 plus points and if run correctly would be quite a challenge for a group of 350 point heroes to beat BUT we could all have a chance to hurt each one a LITTLE - even Supes - but at 3 points per hit for most of us against his huge STUN total we can't beat him that way and he isn't really going to notice the missing STUN. Believe me, you can very accurately represent these people by compressing the point scale a bit - remember, the idea is ratio - Supes is still far faster than any brick should have a right to be...Bats is the peak of human conditioning and Wally is still the "Fastest Man Alive".

 

As for the "can't be useful" at 350 versus 1000 problem - well, sure if you just want them fighting agents...but how can a JLA member guest star and not make the players seem worthless as anything other than "people to occupy other people while the REAL heroes do the heavy lifting". Sorry, look at the DEF on those people. You need at least 14D6 for anyone to take notice and for some of them it's even higher. No 350 point character has a chance of hurting a foe of one of these people even a little so you need some kind of environmental circumstances to make that 350 point character anything other than an agent killer - which means the GM has to build in a way for the character to be useful each adventure - something that shouldn't have to happen. Also, how is that Batman actually loses occasionally(very occasionally but it DOES happen) to just a bunch of thugs with sheer numbers? How can Flash be hurt by convential weapons? On 1000 points it makes the JLA/Avengers both individually and collectively infalible against all but Cosmic level menaces - and that just isn't true, especially on an individual case. To me, building them that powerful is extremely unrealistic...of course, I read the comics more than I watch the show, though I do watch it from time to time...and that may also be part of our disagreement. I also disagree with some of the relative assessments but that's another topic(ie. who is stronger, more resistant etc).

[JmOz]

Your power level is off, By a lot. ESPECIALY FOR THE ANIMATED SERIES

 

When I did Batman for the comics I gave him

 

12/12 PD/ED

3/3 Combat Luck

5/5 Armor (OIF)

--------

20/20

 

plus 50%/50% Damage Reduction Resistant (Same lims as combat luck)

 

The one from the series would be less

[Metaphysician]

Mike W: You are assuming that the top end heroes in the setting *should* appear in adventures with beginning level heroes. They shouldn't, normally, they should be off dealing with the top end threats.

 

The answer to the question "How do I keep the JLA/Avengers from upstaging the PCs??" isn't "Water them down until they are only somewhat more powerful." The answer is "Not have them show up except as plot devices."

 

Powerful NPCs are a requirement for a setting in order to explain why the beginning level PCs don't have to try and stop Megavillains every other week, and thus have very short careers.

[Guest Champsguy]

I'm going to have to both agree, and disagree, with Mike W.

 

I'll agree that those power levels are way off. The characters in the animated series aren't that powerful, or that competent. They're not quite Super Friends class when it comes to boneheaded moves, but they do forget that they have powers. I've seen Green Lantern forget that he doesn't have to breathe, and succumb to a gas attack. I've seen Superman forget that he was invulnerable. I think the scale (except for Dex) that Mike W. gave would work fairly well for the animated JLA.

 

On the other hand, I'd completely object to that scale being used for the comic book JLA. Your average 350 point PC shouldn't be able to do Stun to Superman. If you absolutely have to have Superman be taken down by your heroes, then that's what Kryptonite is for.

[Mike W]

Metaphysician-

 

Believe me. Supes isn't watered down. Let's look at him vs. my character who is a good baseline for most heroes in the this universe.

 

Katana

 

Attacks: 10-13DC(w/o pushing)

DEF 25/25

DEX 21

STUN 45

 

Superman

 

STR: 75

DEF 38/38

DEX 18(he's really not that hard to hit unless he's using levels or maneuvers, he can take so much he doesn't need to get out of the way)

STUN 93

 

Well, if I use my offensive strike, my best attack, I get 7.5 damage and hit 3 out of 4 times. With a four SPD I get 22.5 damage through per round - Supes has a 23 REC so he gets it all back on his post 12. So, while he does take a little damage from my attacks individually. I can pound on him all day and never come close to taking him out. On the other hand, one punch from Superman reduces me to 17 STUN and CON Stuns me - making me easy pickings on his next phase. Supes can easily be built on 600 points or so(not counting the Fortress etc) and still be able to mop the floor with the whole group. But at the same time, if the GM wants to use Absorbing Man or some other top end villains we as the players still have a shot in hell if we can trade off just right. More importantly, we can also be on the same field as the top end guys and be able to contribute a little(not that it's going to happen much but then, J'onn Jonnz is our group mentor). There is no need for Supes to have 100+ STR and 60/60 DEF.

 

I think this will be last post on the subject unless someone says something I feel I absolutely HAVE to respond to because quite frankly, I think we're basically repeating the same philosophical arguments here and going around in circles saying variations of the same thing.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Champsguy

I'm going to have to both agree, and disagree, with Mike W.

 

I'll agree that those power levels are way off. The characters in the animated series aren't that powerful, or that competent. They're not quite Super Friends class when it comes to boneheaded moves, but they do forget that they have powers. I've seen Green Lantern forget that he doesn't have to breathe, and succumb to a gas attack. I've seen Superman forget that he was invulnerable. I think the scale (except for Dex) that Mike W. gave would work fairly well for the animated JLA.

 

On the other hand, I'd completely object to that scale being used for the comic book JLA. Your average 350 point PC shouldn't be able to do Stun to Superman. If you absolutely have to have Superman be taken down by your heroes, then that's what Kryptonite is for.

 

The problem isn't that the average 350 point PC has little or no chance of doing STUN to Superman. It's that the average 350 point PC has little or no chance of doing STUN -- especially meaningful STUN -- to ANY member of the JLA in a lot of group write-ups I see. It's excessive.