The Whole Shebang

[Gary]

First of all, speed of thought in comics always seems to trump speed of motion.

 

If Manhunter waits until 2, he's hosed. Space Phantom will replace him, and then "Manhunter" will be fighting on the Marvel side.

 

Also, a megascale moveby means that he's easily blocked. Just take one of Marvel's fighters with combat sense, and it's trivial to block a -2 OCV.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> The white martians were shown to use artificial

> enhancements to their psionic powers. Go re-read their

> initial appearance.

 

People who smarmily tell me to go "re-read" would best be advised to have their facts in order, first. *You* need to go re-read, as I will now demonstrate in detail.

 

The scene where three Pale Martians were mind-controlling Vladivostok was not *in* their original appearance... it was in the /next/ arc, "Terror Incognita".

 

In the first appearance, they also mind controlled a very large chunk of the population. You were talking about a different occurrence. Fine.

 

> Those large constructs? Those were psi-enhancers.

 

Actually, they were microwave broadcasters designed to continuously repeat a low-level subliminal signal so as to keep the population of Earth docile and suggestible /without/ needing any individual Martian to actually stop and use his telepathy.

 

They were doing much more than "keeping them docile". They made a crowd attack the JLA. That means they were using their telepathy.

 

After all, during their original appearance, they were trying to conceal the fact that they were Martians. Hence their using a mechanical hypnosis method instead of their own, innate telepathic powers -- powers which J'onn would easily have sensed, thus making their cover implode on the first day. As is, they were able to sustain the deception for quite a while.[//quote]

 

Gee, they didn't do a very good job of hiding. Unearthing the old martian city, Z'onn Z'orr, seems like a pretty big giveaway.

 

> J'onn does have superspeed, but he's never been shown to

> use it in conjunction with his telepathy.

 

Incorrect again -- J'onn has mindscanned the entire population of Earth (MARTIAN MANHUNTER), and I also seem to recall that the JLA had a superfast telepathic conference during the Rann arc JLA #20.

 

That's a large scale mindscan. Professor X has mindscanned the entire population, too. That doesn't mean he has superspeed. Superfast telepathic conference? That's fine. But you can only do that with others who possess superspeed. He was talking to Supes, as I recall.

 

Furthermore, J'onn has successfully laid a telepathic mental influence on a hostile Pale Martian -- while simultaneously fighting all-out, physically. ("Terror Incognita", again)

 

So what? That doesn't mean he can mind control people in .0001 seconds. It means he can use his mental powers while he fights.

 

And that's not even touching what might have gone on during the Burning.

 

Don't know. Only read about half of that crap arc.

 

> He's can't "superspeed" mind control everyone.

 

Yes, he can.

 

No, he can't. In the latest issue of JLA (or the latest one I read, anyway--"Trouble in the Heartland" or something), Flash reads the file in an FBI agent's car, while he's having a conversation with the guy (game effect: uses his power pool for KS: this particular case). You never see J'onn do something like that with his telepathy. He never says "Hey, Superman, don't worry about it. I mind controlled the Injustice League halfway through Luthor's victory speech." Luthor never says "Hey, Super-foo... I am loyal as a puppy."

 

> It doesn't matter anyway, because [snip the repeat]

 

You have a #'s advantage. We have a speed advantage. By the time your telepaths have finished activating their powers, they're going to be all alone.

 

I don't have any advantage. I'm not picking sides.

 

No, DC doesn't have that big a speed advantage. That's all in your mind. If they did, they wouldn't have any trouble at all with any of their villains. The General (formerly the Shaggy Man) would never even get in a punch on Superman. Supes, after all, has superspeed. He should be able to grab the General, fly him to the asteroid belt, and leave him there before the neurons fire in Eiling's brain. But Superman doesn't do that. Why not? Because he can't. His superspeed doesn't let him.

 

[snip]

> Why are you insisting on having DC characters operate so

> out of character?

 

I'm not having them operate "out of character", unless you define "out of character" as "showing any more IQ than God gave a meatball".

 

You guys can try repeating the same old 'DC is stupid! DC is dumb! DC is retarded!' Marvel fanboy propaganda all the live long day, and all it will do is keep confirming my statement that you guys are trying to rig a fight you know you can't win honestly.

 

I didn't say they were dumb. I said they aren't as competent as you want them to be. That doesn't mean that they aren't intelligent. It just means that they can't do everything you seem to think they can.

 

My opinion is that you're falling back on moves that aren't supported by the comics to try and win the fight. Even in Kingdom Come, Kid Flash didn't punch everyone on the other side 500 times at superspeed. Superman should have been able to fight Captain Marvel, and simultaneously incapacitate every villain on the field with his heat vision. Wonder Woman had trouble fighting Batman??? She's got superspeed. She should have been able to stop the fight herself. Jay Garrick was there. He should have been able to defeat everyone on the other side, as well. None of the villains in the Gulag were shown to have superspeed. According to you, that fight should have been over in .0001 seconds. But it wasn't. Why not? Gee, I guess superspeed isn't as good as you make it out to be.

 

> Why are you reading into them abilities that they don't

> have? Yes, the Flash is fast, but he can't defeat half the

> Marvel characters in the blink of an eye.

 

If the Flash can pick up and move an entire large crowd of bystanders to safety in the space between nanoseconds... which he has... then I see no reason why he can't also punch each member of that crowd in the head. It's actually /less/ motion to just swing your fist then to pick up somebody, carry them to the next block, put them down, and loop back for the guy standing next to them.

 

Sure he can. It's an Area Effect Hand Attack, selective. The "moving large crowd" is a Teleport, Usable Against Others, Area Effect, Selective.

 

> He's a guy with [snip game mechanics]

 

Who said you could write the game adaptations of both sets of characters? Neither of their official RPGs accurately reflect comic canon in any but the most vaguest way, and there is no official Champions conversion whatsoever. So all I'm getting here is what *you want* them to have, not what they actually do have. Nope, not happening.

 

There are official Champions conversions. They were published in Adventurers' Club.

 

Flash doesn't operate on the competence level that you want him to. I'm giving him a writeup that lets him accomplish the kinds of things he can accomplish, and that limits him to the abilities he's shown at the same time.

[Kzinbane]

The problem with these discussions - though they are fun to wrangle with - is that even in one character's own comic their powers do not stay constant from issue to issue due to writers changing and what have you. Superman is a perfect example - back prior to the crisis he could push planets around. I have not read Supes for a while, but I get the impression that his powers are heading back "up" again.

Hulk is a good Marvel example. He originally was just plain invulnerable to damage then the writers decided to make him a really, really fast healer too (or instead depending on how you look at it). Hulk back in his "hulk smash" days was theoretically limited in strengh only by a limitation on how mad he could get. The thing that made him angriest was finding someone who thinks he's tough as Hulk. Sooo Superman Vs Hulk in a puch session "should" end with Hulk eventually getting so mad he is stronger than Superman - then it's a matter of who can take punishment longer.

Of course supes has other abilities to use - note I just mention strength fighting - no flying, heat vision, etc.

 

My take on this however is that if the two worlds were merged then things would take time to come to a head. If there is time then I don't see many DC people able to match the abilities of Reed Richards and Victor Von Doom. Heaven help DC if those two work together and have a bit of time to study their opponents before they act.

I admit to not being as up to date on DC but Luthor seems very out-classed by Doom or Richards. If Doom had a mad-on for Superman I would not give supes much time to get his affairs in order...

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Me? I don't care either way who wins, [snip]

 

If you don't care, then why are you here?

 

I find statements of 'I don't care about the outcome' coming from people who are actually making efforts to participate in the outcome to be slightly, ummm, incongrous.

 

I don't "care". Personally, the most important thing to me right now is a phone call I'm supposed to get on Thursday. I'm in salary discussions right now over a job. I'm doing this to pass the time.

[Chuckg]

> They were doing much more than "keeping them docile".

> They made a crowd attack the JLA. That means they were

> using their telepathy.

 

Incorrect -- the ongoing suggestion was 'Love the Hyperclan, trust only the Hyperclan'. When the JLA attacked the Hyperclan in front of the crowd, the crowd reacted to that.

 

Note also that the crowd was ordered to attack the JLA *verbally*. Again, /you/ need to reread the scene.

 

[snip]

> Gee, they didn't do a very good job of hiding. Unearthing

> the old martian city, Z'onn Z'orr, seems like a pretty big

> giveaway.

 

One -- recovering Z'onn Z'orr was their goal in coming to Earth in the first place. Two -- There was only one being on the planet besides themselves who could recognize it... and they sent people to neutralize him, remember?

 

[snip]

> That's a large scale mindscan. Professor X has mindscanned

> the entire population, too. That doesn't mean he has

> superspeed. Superfast telepathic conference? That's fine.

> But you can only do that with others who possess

> superspeed.

 

Incorrect -- you can only have a /two-way/ conversation with those who also possess superspeed.

 

Mind Control's the ultimate 1-way conversation.

 

[snip]

> > Furthermore, J'onn has successfully laid a telepathic

> > mental influence on a hostile Pale Martian -- while

> > simultaneously fighting all-out, physically. ("Terror

> > Incognita", again)

 

> So what? That doesn't mean he can mind control people

> in .0001 seconds. It means he can use his mental powers

> while he fights.

 

While he fights /at superspeed/.

 

J'onn has been seen using his telepathy while in superspeed mode, at superfast rates, on multiple occasions, and yet you claim he still can only mind-control one person at a time at a very slow rate. Stacking decks much?

 

[snip]

> No, he can't. In the latest issue of JLA (or the latest one I

> read, anyway--"Trouble in the Heartland" or something),

> Flash reads the file in an FBI agent's car, while he's having a

> conversation with the guy (game effect: uses his power

> pool for KS: this particular case). You never see J'onn do

> something like that with his telepathy.

 

Really? Reread 'Terror Incognita' again -- J'onn not only did do something like that with his telepathy, he did it to his own teammates.

 

> He never says "Hey, Superman, don't worry about it. I mind

> controlled the Injustice League halfway through Luthor's

> victory speech."

 

Right, and the presence of the Worlogog and Luthor's own alien telepath had absolutely nothing to do with that, sure. Again, you leave out important facts to make a weak position look strong.

 

[snip]

> I don't have any advantage. I'm not picking sides.

 

Right. You're just arguing massively for the Marvel team while continually underrating DC's abilities, belittling their capabilities, and giving Marvel every possible benefit of the doubt -- but no, you're not picking sides. Nope. No sir.

 

/sarcasm off

 

It would be equally as unbelievable for me to try to claim that I'm not supporting DC as for you to try and claim that you're not supporting Marvel.

 

> No, DC doesn't have that big a speed advantage. That's all in

> your mind.

 

And now we get back on your 'Anybody who doesn't agree with me is stupid' routine.

 

> If they did, they wouldn't have any trouble at all

> with any of their villains.

 

By an equally rigorous standard, the Red Skull would long ago have been brought to justice by a full-on Avengers task force, including Thor -- instead of Cap always going off to fight him alone, and the Red Skull always escaping. Likewise, Reed Richards would have ended Marvel-Earth's energy crisis by inventing and releasing cold fusion powerpacks. Likewise, Dr. Strange would have used his crystal ball to pinpoint the exact location of Osama bin Laden on the afternoon of 9/11/01 and Nick Fury would've then sent the aforementioned Avengers task force to go drag him back kicking and screaming. Etc, etc, etc.

 

It's called "Plot-Induced Stupidity", aka "Why comic books always last 22+ pages even when the heroes have enough available resources to make the story end in one minute flat." Both comic book companies use it routinely to make stories last a lot longer than they otherwise should, and neither side can use it as 'proof' that so-and-so does not have a given capability.

 

If it's been done in a comic often enough to show that it's not a total Spider-Man vs. Firelord style fluke, then the fact that it's not done every single issue is not a disqualifier. After all, having capabilities that can end a fight in five seconds but not using it is as common in comic-books as masks and secret IDs.

 

> The General (formerly the Shaggy Man) would never even

> get in a punch on Superman. Supes, after all, has

> superspeed. He should be able to grab the General, fly him

> to the asteroid belt, and leave him there before the

> neurons fire in Eiling's brain. But Superman doesn't do that.

> Why not? Because he can't. His superspeed doesn't let him.

 

Wrong.

 

Superman *could* do that. He fought at full-on superspeed going up against Mongul II, after all. We know he has the power, because he's demonstrated it..

 

So why didn't he use it vs. the General or Doomsday? Answer -- the writer wanted to drag things out, so he had Supes job. That's it.

 

What you are doing here is claiming that unless a given power is used all the time, at maximum efficiency, it can't be allowed to exist. That's absolute nonsense.

 

[snip]

> I didn't say they were dumb.

 

No, but you 'just happened' to have their every plan that you suggested boil down to 'standing around with their thumb up their ass' or 'letting Team Marvel pick all the fights and set up all the terms'.

 

Which is strategic imbecility.

 

> I said they aren't as competent as you want them to be.

> That doesn't mean that they aren't intelligent.

 

Then why do you never give them credit for coming up with any intelligent plans?

 

> It just means that they can't do everything you seem to

> think they can.

 

They can. And since this fight is not being fought under an artificial Plot-Induced Stupidity limitation, they will.

 

[snip]

> There are official Champions conversions. They were

> published in Adventurers' Club.

 

*How* long ago? They're almost certainly out of date now. And did DC and Marvel sign off on those conversions officially? Doubt it.

 

Again -- skip the game mechanics attempts. That would require everyone participating to agree on all the point writeups first, and you know that's never going to happen.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Superman has been growing back to his Pre-Crisis levels,

> and Gladiator is off-planet too much to count in this fight

> (also include any other "this character kills the Marvel

> Universe by himself" people here): Two words: Super-

> Adaptoid.

 

Several more -- Amazo v2.0.

 

Thanks! You've just given the Adaptoid all the powers of the JLA, and now it only takes up one "slot". Amazo isn't a power duplicator (with the exception of that one whose powers changed with the existance of the JLA, and was defeated when Supes disbanded the team)--he's just built with copies of all the JLA's powers. Thus, the Adaptoid can duplicate him.

 

BTW, Franklin Richards can be taken out via an ambush from somebody as low-level as Batman... unless he's concsiously expecting trouble, he's got the defenses of a normal little kid

 

The Spectre doesn't.

 

Well, I think both were disqualified, actually, according to the rules. However, Franklin can't be dropped so easily. He's got some sort of subconscious sense of the universe (when he created his own pocket dimension, he re-made the heroes as he had imagined they were--even if he didn't know their Secret IDs). Also, who's going to think to attack the FF's kid? "It's a 4 year old, get it!!!"

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Me? I don't care either way who wins, [snip]

 

If you don't care, then why are you here?

 

I find statements of 'I don't care about the outcome' coming from people who are actually making efforts to participate in the outcome to be slightly, ummm, incongrous.

 

I didn't say it because I support the Marvel side, I said it because it's *true*.

 

It's not like I said "DC characters are all idiots." Most members of the Bat Family are brilliant. But many of the DC heavy hitters suffer from the "Heroically Stupid" PsychLim.

[Chuckg]

> Thanks! You've just given the Adaptoid all the powers of the

> JLA, and now it only takes up one "slot".

 

IIRC, adaptoids can't adapt each other. And Amazo v2.0 uses the same basic concept as the Super-Adaptoid.

 

> Amazo isn't a power duplicator (with the exception of that

> one whose powers changed with the existance of the JLA,

> and was defeated when Supes disbanded the team)

 

That's why I specified Amazo v2.0, not 1.0 -- the 2.0 version is the one you're referring to, from JLA #27.

 

So the Adaptoid's screwed. Trust me, I already thought this through.

 

[snip]

> Well, I think both were disqualified, actually, according to

> the rules. He's got some sort of subconscious sense of the

> universe (when he created his own pocket dimension, he re-

> made the heroes as he had imagined they were--even if he

> didn't know their Secret IDs). Also, who's going to think to

> attack the FF's kid? "It's a 4 year old, get it!!!"

 

It's a 4-year old who shows up on mind scan as the most powerful psionic entity alive, get it?

[Chuckg]

> I didn't say it because I support the Marvel side, I said it

> because it's *true*.

 

No, it's *not* -- that's my point. The 'Heroically Stupid' Psych Lim that you're claiming they have is *much* exaggerated here.

 

As witness how, every time somebody tries to post an example of it, I can show that their example left out /all/ the context.

 

The only 'Heroically Stupid' going on here is what I referred to recently as the basic 'Plot-Induced Stupidity' used to keep powerful heroes from ending all their comics in 2 pages... and both Marvel and DC have been suffering equally from that one for ages, which is why I don't use it at all for these kinds of fights.

[Chuckg]

Not to mention another factor -- DC's recently run an arc, which IIRC is still going on, where Superman -- in the mainline DCU -- has been replaced by Majestic (of Wildstorm).

 

At Majestic's *high-end* power levels. I.e. -- Pre-Crisis Superman /plus/ Reed Richards, /without/ the Kryptonite weakness.

 

But I didn't want to haul him out of the shot locker, as he is supremely cheesy. Of course, since the cheese count around here's been getting high /anyway/...

[Guest Champsguy]

Chuck, I haven't been arguing anything for Marvel. That's been other people.

 

I really, really don't care who would win. For one, I think the entire concept is forced. There's no way that the Red Skull and Magneto are going to be fighting on the same side. There's also no way that Mordru is going to sit around and take orders from Superman. We haven't even agreed on who all would be at the fight.

 

This conversation, and variants thereof, has probably come up a dozen times or more since I've been on the board. I'm just looking for entertainment. I don't get anything from this if either side wins.

 

You want cheesy? Fine. The Super-Adaptoid mimics Makkari, the Juggernaut, and Molecule Man. Now you've got a Flash-grade speedster with complete and utter invulnerability, who can make the whole of DC vanish by wiggling his nose. Game over.

[Chuckg]

> First of all, speed of thought in comics always seems to

> trump speed of motion.

 

Not in FLASH comics, it don't. AAMOF, at least three Flash arcs and one JLA arc have made it a specific plot point that lightspeed speedsters think too fast to be monitored or affected by non-speedster telepaths.

 

> Also, a megascale moveby means that he's easily blocked.

> Just take one of Marvel's fighters with combat sense, and

> it's trivial to block a -2 OCV.

 

*piku*

 

The guy destroys six skyscraper-sized structurse spaced equally around the entire planet in the blink of an eye, and you're saying that any Marvel HTH fighter would trivially block that?

 

Nope, no massive fanboy over-rating of Marveldom /here/, no sir.

 

/sarcasm off

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Thanks! You've just given the Adaptoid all the powers of the

> JLA, and now it only takes up one "slot".

 

IIRC, adaptoids can't adapt each other. And Amazo v2.0 uses the same basic concept as the Super-Adaptoid.

 

> Amazo isn't a power duplicator (with the exception of that

> one whose powers changed with the existance of the JLA,

> and was defeated when Supes disbanded the team)

 

That's why I specified Amazo v2.0, not 1.0 -- the 2.0 version is the one you're referring to, from JLA #27.

 

So the Adaptoid's screwed. Trust me, I already thought this through.

 

Actually, when the Adaptoid tries it, the powers of both burn out. So they're both screwed. Same thing happened when he tried to duplicate Mimic.

[SleepyDrug]

I didn't put all of the Earth Eternals on my list....Captain Atom was listed....

 

People need to pay attention to the rules here...

 

Space Phantom is not earth based....he's out

Mordru could win with an eyeblink....he's out

Super-Adaptoid is dead...he's out

Franklin Richards could win with an eyeblink....he's out

 

Superman routinely forgets to fight at his potential. Batman mentions it during the Hush storyline, the Royal Flush Gang hose him for it in JLA Spectacular (at end of Breakdowns)

 

Yes, J'onn is a powerful telepath...but he tends to fight physically....and can be checked by anyone of several telepaths in that arena Xavier, X-Man, Phoenix, and the Shadow King all equal or exceed him.

[Chuckg]

> You want cheesy? Fine. The Super-Adaptoid mimics Makkari,

> the Juggernaut, and Molecule Man. Now you've got a Flash-

> grade speedster with complete and utter invulnerability,

> who can make the whole of DC vanish by wiggling his nose.

> Game over.

 

If we're allowing in all the Deus ex Machinae from both universes, then the Super-Adaptoid wiggles his nose, freaks out when nothing happens, and then gets piledrived by a tag-team of both the Presence(*) and Lucifer Morningstar.

 

 

 

 

(*) Unlike Marvel, DC canonically has the existence of the Supreme Being Of Your Choice, Maker And Shaper Of the Entire Macrocosmic All, established, along with his Almost-Equally-As-Omnipotent Evil Opposite. Since the Supreme Being of Marvel committed suicide and fragmented itself into six gems that can no longer be used in unison, no matter how high up you ramp the Marvel trump cards, the DC's got a bigger one.

 

If you go cheesy, you lose. Period.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Champsguy

Actually, when the Adaptoid tries it, the powers of both burn out. So they're both screwed. Same thing happened when he tried to duplicate Mimic.

 

No problem -- I'll gladly trade you an Amazo android to take out the Super-Adaptoid.

 

I've got two, after all.

[Guest Champsguy]

I noticed some people left off the list on Marvel's side.

 

Immortus

Super-Adaptoid

Molecule Man

Titanium Man

Unicorn

Peran

[Chuckg]

> Yes, J'onn is a powerful telepath...but he tends to fight

> physically...

 

All arguments based on the theme of '[insert DC character here] will be too stupid to use his powers with basic common sense given the circumstances' will be laughed at.

 

J'onn usually does prefer to fight physically, yes. However, J'onn usually faces foes that he can easily physically crush, and does *not* usually face the type of telepathic onslaught you're trying to throw at him here.

 

You can either believe that J'onn is going to fight to win or he's going to fight to lose. I choose to believe he's going to fight to win.

[Chuckg]

> Immortus

 

I think he got canned for not being Earth-based.

 

> Super-Adaptoid

> Molecule Man

 

We already saw both get bounced.

 

> Titanium Man

> Unicorn

 

Not really powerful enough to be factors.

 

> Peran

 

Who? Did you mean Perun, late of the Soviet Super-Soldiers? I think he's now dead or something.

[Chuckg]

Will everybody who 'doesn't care who would win' kindly leave the thread, so that those of us who seriously are trying to pick a winner can get on with it?

 

Not caring who wins or loses, but only caring about how much shit you can stir up or how much you can amuse yourself at others' expense, is normally called 'trolling'.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> You want cheesy? Fine. The Super-Adaptoid mimics Makkari,

> the Juggernaut, and Molecule Man. Now you've got a Flash-

> grade speedster with complete and utter invulnerability,

> who can make the whole of DC vanish by wiggling his nose.

> Game over.

 

If we're allowing in all the Deus ex Machinae from both universes, then the Super-Adaptoid wiggles his nose, freaks out when nothing happens, and then gets piledrived by a tag-team of both the Presence(*) and Lucifer Morningstar.

 

 

(*) Unlike Marvel, DC canonically has the existence of the Supreme Being Of Your Choice, Maker And Shaper Of the Entire Macrocosmic All, established, along with his Almost-Equally-As-Omnipotent Evil Opposite. Since the Supreme Being of Marvel committed suicide and fragmented itself into six gems that can no longer be used in unison, no matter how high up you ramp the Marvel trump cards, the DC's got a bigger one.

 

If you go cheesy, you lose. Period.

 

Until the Living Tribunal shows up and wipes out DC completely. He's more powerful than the guy who shattered into gems (he was "supreme" in a very limited sense). But again, we're not using the power cosmic guys. The Adaptoid's move is cheesy, but he's definitely an Earth-based villain.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> First of all, speed of thought in comics always seems to

> trump speed of motion.

 

Not in FLASH comics, it don't. AAMOF, at least three Flash arcs and one JLA arc have made it a specific plot point that lightspeed speedsters think too fast to be monitored or affected by non-speedster telepaths.

 

Could you point me to the issues? Which DC telepaths tried to read a speedster and failed?

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Also, a megascale moveby means that he's easily blocked.

> Just take one of Marvel's fighters with combat sense, and

> it's trivial to block a -2 OCV.

 

*piku*

 

The guy destroys six skyscraper-sized structurse spaced equally around the entire planet in the blink of an eye, and you're saying that any Marvel HTH fighter would trivially block that?

 

Nope, no massive fanboy over-rating of Marveldom /here/, no sir.

 

/sarcasm off

 

Captain America's shield. It'll stop Greenboy dead in his tracks. Of course that assumes that Space Phantom hasn't already replaced him.

[Chuckg]

> Until the Living Tribunal shows up and wipes out DC

> completely. He's more powerful than the guy who shattered

> into gems (he was "supreme" in a very limited sense).

 

Incorrect -- unless I missed something very important, the Living Tribunal cannot overmatch the full power of the Infinity Gauntlet.

 

OTOH, he /can/ prevent the Infinity Gauntlet from being assembled, by laying his will upon the six separate gems /before/ they're all linked up. That doesn't require the LT to be more powerful than said passed-on entity, that merely requires the LT to be more powerful than any one Infinity Gem taken in isolation -- which he is.

[Gary]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug

I didn't put all of the Earth Eternals on my list....Captain Atom was listed....

 

People need to pay attention to the rules here...

 

Space Phantom is not earth based....he's out

Mordru could win with an eyeblink....he's out

Super-Adaptoid is dead...he's out

Franklin Richards could win with an eyeblink....he's out

 

Superman routinely forgets to fight at his potential. Batman mentions it during the Hush storyline, the Royal Flush Gang hose him for it in JLA Spectacular (at end of Breakdowns)

 

Yes, J'onn is a powerful telepath...but he tends to fight physically....and can be checked by anyone of several telepaths in that arena Xavier, X-Man, Phoenix, and the Shadow King all equal or exceed him.

 

Space Phantom spends all his time either on Earth, or exiled in Limbo around Earth. He qualifies. Just because you came from space doesn't mean that you're disqualified, otherwise Superman would be out.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug

I didn't put all of the Earth Eternals on my list....Captain Atom was listed....

 

People need to pay attention to the rules here...

 

Space Phantom is not earth based....he's out

Mordru could win with an eyeblink....he's out

Super-Adaptoid is dead...he's out

Franklin Richards could win with an eyeblink....he's out

 

I think you need to define the rules a little better.