The Whole Shebang

[BNakagawa]

I'd be more worried about running into an invisible force wall at flash speed and having the mother of all concussions.

 

I don't know how much DEF Sue Storm's force wall has, but I'm guessing it's more than enough to plant the Flash (or any speedster unlucky enough to encounter it at combat speed) in the infirmary if not the morgue.

 

$0.02

[Metaphysician]

Assuming they don't touch it, notice something is in front of them, stop, and start searching for a way around it, all while the entire world is still utterly frozen next to them. . .

[SomeAsianKid]

Of course, if Marvel has homefield advantage, then there is no speedforce, and the flash family loses their powers.

 

Plus, Marvel has a whole lot more supers/villians then DC has. The Marvel world is slowly turning into all mutants, as Beast discovered that humanity will die out within three generations.

[Chuckg]

Well, if we're going to use the *future*, then I send in DC One Million and you guys get crushed like an ant under a tank.

 

Is it just me or is the Marvel side really desperate here? First they keep assuming that all their opponents are 'tards, then they try to shut down their superpowers, and now they're hauling out alternate futures.

[Gary]

One thing that Marvel has that DC doesn't (at least now that all the pale Martians are dead), is a battalion of mind controllers/mental illusionists.

 

Here is a list from OHOTMU, not including Demons, most Gods, most mystics, or Elders of the Universe. I only picked out Gods or mystics if this is a major part of their "schtick".

 

Black Crow

Black Mamba

Black Queen

Brother Voodoo

Controller

Corruptor

Cybele

Diablo

Dr. Druid

Empath

Enchantress

Karma

Legion

Loki

Lorelei

Magneto (He'll be needed elsewhere)

Mandarin (Left ring finger) (Same as Magneto)

Mandrill

Marvel Girl

Mastermind

Maximus

Mesmero

Mojo

Moondragon

Nightshade

Phoenix (Rachel)

Professor X

Psycho Man

Psylocke

Puppet Master

Purple Man

Purple Girl

Ringmaster

Sersi

Space Phantom

Thena

White Queen

Yellow Claw

 

A good chunk of DC's powerhouses are going to be fighting each other.

[Chuckg]

Gary, you 'forgot' to mention that the vast majority of your list either has a real problem working against strong-willed people, inability to maintain control over more than one or two at a time, or a very short range... in several cases, touch only.

 

Any other #'s anybody else wants to juggle?

[Gary]

Lessee, we need Professor X to fend of Martian Manhunter. Let's say Moondragon to handle Gorilla Grodd. Emma Frost to match Deadman. Karma matches Jericho. That still leaves quite a few area effect and/or extremely powerful controllers.

 

That's at least Jean Grey, Psylocke, Purple Man, Purple Girl, Enchantress, Lorelei, Mastermind, Mesmero, Ringmaster, Mojo, Sersi, Thena, Space Phantom (this guy is scary), Legion, Loki, Rachel Phoenix, Mandrill, and Empath who can either affect strong willed targets, or multiple targets.

 

Who else does DC have that's strong psionically?

 

Heck, Marvel can use the Space Phantom to take out Manhunter, leaving Professor X free.

[SleepyDrug]

Ok, a few assumptions....

 

1) everyone's powers work as if on their homeworld

2) this is a neutral battleground (alternate earth?)

3) no dues ex mechina, cosmic, or instant win characters

4) earth based only

 

DC General Review - These guys tend to hit the extreme high end of the power scale; but to be honest as a percentage of the total....they are just a few. Also, they *tend* to be less professional; how many scenes of the JLA or Titans training together do we see?

 

Marvel General Review - While not as powerful; there is a greater precentage of high power individuals. World class telepaths? at least 20. High end bricks? Energy Controllers?

Also, these guys are far more professional...X-Men, FF and Avengers train together all the time and have established maneuvers for specific threats.

 

Who's legal? This is important because most of the JLA's most dangerous foes are cosmic (and thus not in this fight). So any decision is dependent on answering the question who of the most powerful are in the brawl? I could care less about people like Falcon or Booster Gold...tell me about the Thor's and Supermen.

 

Where and Why? For the sake of fairness; we need to place them on a Secret War's style Battleworld where everyone's powers work as if at home. Also the given objective is to defeat the other side.

[Chuckg]

> Lessee, we need Professor X to fend of Martian Manhunter.

> Let's say Moondragon to handle Gorilla Grodd. Emma Frost

> to match Deadman. Karma matches Jericho. That still leaves [snip]

 

Why are you having the DC characters just stand around with their thumbs up their butt and let themselves get locked up in one-on-one matches calculated to grant Marvel the widest possible victory?

 

Yet again, Team DCU isn't given the strategic aptitude of a grape.

 

Hint -- if one Pale Martian can mind-control 1/3rd of a city, then J'onn's talents are really wasted going and picking a fight with Xavier if he can simply wipe out every Marvel character without a mind-shield in the first 0.0001 seconds of the fight... and remember, J"onn has superspeed as well as telepathy.

[Kristopher]

Unfortunately, many of DC's heavy hitters don't have the tactical aptitude of a grape...

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Unfortunately, many of DC's heavy hitters don't have the tactical aptitude of a grape...

 

I was right. You guys *are* trying to hand yourselves a cheap win by creatively assuming that the other side are all retarded, while overinflating the genius of your own.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Lessee, we need Professor X to fend of Martian Manhunter.

> Let's say Moondragon to handle Gorilla Grodd. Emma Frost

> to match Deadman. Karma matches Jericho. That still leaves [snip]

 

Why are you having the DC characters just stand around with their thumbs up their butt and let themselves get locked up in one-on-one matches calculated to grant Marvel the widest possible victory?

 

Yet again, Team DCU isn't given the strategic aptitude of a grape.

 

Hint -- if one Pale Martian can mind-control 1/3rd of a city, then J'onn's talents are really wasted going and picking a fight with Xavier if he can simply wipe out every Marvel character without a mind-shield in the first 0.0001 seconds of the fight... and remember, J"onn has superspeed as well as telepathy.

 

The white martians were shown to use artificial enhancements to their psionic powers. Go re-read their initial appearance. Those large constructs? Those were psi-enhancers.

 

J'onn does have superspeed, but he's never been shown to use it in conjunction with his telepathy. He's can't "superspeed" mind control everyone. It doesn't matter anyway, because Marvel has it head and shoulders above DC in regards to telepaths. Remember, Moondragon psionically controlled an entire planet, by herself.

 

Why are you insisting on having DC characters operate so out of character? Why are you reading into them abilities that they don't have? Yes, the Flash is fast, but he can't defeat half the Marvel characters in the blink of an eye. He's a guy with Megascaled Running and a power pool to simulate "superspeed" effects. He doesn't have a 150 Speed and a thousand combat levels.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

 

I notice that there's this trend to not credit the Flash family with the minimum intellect that God gave a cockroach.

 

Well, if the shoe fits...

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> The 70+ Martian speed-blitz: Well, for one, they're dead.

> For two, even when they weren't dead, they were sitting in

> the "still zone" or whatever (not on Earth enough to count).

> For three... Firelord and 2 Human Torch's.

 

One problem here -- that only covers their very immediate area. Martians are shut down by open flame, yes, but it has to be close to them.

 

For another -- your guys aren't up and flaming all the time. Martians strike w/o warning, at Flash-like speeds.

 

Actually, Firelord is up and flaming all the time (along with Northstar---bud dum bum!). The Martians don't strike without warning, moving at Flash-like speeds. Kyle Raynor had time to see Zum coming. ("Is that J'onn? Good." "No. That's not J'onn. J'onn would be flying...")

[Chuckg]

> The white martians were shown to use artificial

> enhancements to their psionic powers. Go re-read their

> initial appearance.

 

People who smarmily tell me to go "re-read" would best be advised to have their facts in order, first. *You* need to go re-read, as I will now demonstrate in detail.

 

The scene where three Pale Martians were mind-controlling Vladivostok was not *in* their original appearance... it was in the /next/ arc, "Terror Incognita".

 

> Those large constructs? Those were psi-enhancers.

 

Actually, they were microwave broadcasters designed to continuously repeat a low-level subliminal signal so as to keep the population of Earth docile and suggestible /without/ needing any individual Martian to actually stop and use his telepathy.

 

After all, during their original appearance, they were trying to conceal the fact that they were Martians. Hence their using a mechanical hypnosis method instead of their own, innate telepathic powers -- powers which J'onn would easily have sensed, thus making their cover implode on the first day. As is, they were able to sustain the deception for quite a while.

 

> J'onn does have superspeed, but he's never been shown to

> use it in conjunction with his telepathy.

 

Incorrect again -- J'onn has mindscanned the entire population of Earth (MARTIAN MANHUNTER), and I also seem to recall that the JLA had a superfast telepathic conference during the Rann arc JLA #20.

 

Furthermore, J'onn has successfully laid a telepathic mental influence on a hostile Pale Martian -- while simultaneously fighting all-out, physically. ("Terror Incognita", again)

 

And that's not even touching what might have gone on during the Burning.

 

> He's can't "superspeed" mind control everyone.

 

Yes, he can.

 

> It doesn't matter anyway, because [snip the repeat]

 

You have a #'s advantage. We have a speed advantage. By the time your telepaths have finished activating their powers, they're going to be all alone.

 

[snip]

> Why are you insisting on having DC characters operate so

> out of character?

 

I'm not having them operate "out of character", unless you define "out of character" as "showing any more IQ than God gave a meatball".

 

You guys can try repeating the same old 'DC is stupid! DC is dumb! DC is retarded!' Marvel fanboy propaganda all the live long day, and all it will do is keep confirming my statement that you guys are trying to rig a fight you know you can't win honestly.

 

> Why are you reading into them abilities that they don't

> have? Yes, the Flash is fast, but he can't defeat half the

> Marvel characters in the blink of an eye.

 

If the Flash can pick up and move an entire large crowd of bystanders to safety in the space between nanoseconds... which he has... then I see no reason why he can't also punch each member of that crowd in the head. It's actually /less/ motion to just swing your fist then to pick up somebody, carry them to the next block, put them down, and loop back for the guy standing next to them.

 

> He's a guy with [snip game mechanics]

 

Who said you could write the game adaptations of both sets of characters? Neither of their official RPGs accurately reflect comic canon in any but the most vaguest way, and there is no official Champions conversion whatsoever. So all I'm getting here is what *you want* them to have, not what they actually do have. Nope, not happening.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> For being so fast, these guys are actually kinda 'tards. Jesse

> Quick got smacked down hard when she tried to fight

> Vandal Savage. Dumb broad ran into a sonic force wall.

 

Wrong. It was an area-effect sonic NND (only vs. people moving at above X mph w/o Hearing Group Flash Defense), a Doppler-effect ultrasound stunner.

 

Well, kiss my grits. I didn't know that Grant Morrison had told you how he wrote it up in Champions (I think Morrison wrote that issue). It doesn't matter anyway.

 

And Vandal Savage has been a Flash-family archvillain for years... if *he* wouldn't have Foci specifically geared for taking out Flashes, nobody would.

 

Jesse Quick was not 'dumb', she merely ran into an NND trap she had no reason to be expecting and no defenses against. You are not only taking one isolated incident and trying to blow it all out of proportion to create a false impression re: the competence level of DC speedsters, you're getting the facts about the incident wrong besides.

 

Wait just a second, there, hotshot. Let's think this through:

 

Vandal Savage is a Flash-family villain.

Vandal Savage has been a Flash-family villain for years.

If anyone would have specifically-designed foci to fight a Flash, it's him.

Thus, Jesse Quick has no reason at all to expect any sort of trap from this villain that has fought her kind for years.

 

Gee, that makes sense.

 

The fact is, Jesse Quick did do something stupid. The fact that I wrote up the power differently than you would doesn't mean I'm getting the facts wrong.

[Chuckg]

> Actually, Firelord is up and flaming all the time (along

> with Northstar---bud dum bum!).

 

Great. So Firelord and anybody with 15 feet of him is safe from Martians.

 

Well, gee, I guess the rest of the DCU can handle that small speck of land. They'll just handle the rest of the battlefield.

 

> The Martians don't strike without warning, moving at

> Flash-like speeds.

 

Really? Tell that to Wally -- he got blind-sided, while moving at full speed, by an invisible Martian during "Terror Incognita".

 

> Kyle Raynor had time to see Zum coming. ("Is that J'onn?

> Good." "No. That's not J'onn. J'onn would be flying...")

 

Again, for all those who want to cite feats from the Hyperclan arc, you've got to remember that during the first 2-3 issues of that arc, the Pale Martians were deliberately pretending not to be Martians.

 

Which means that they were not only deliberately restricting themselves as to show powers they showed in public, they also restricted themselves as to *how much* power they were showing. Zum was pretending to be an ordinary speedster at the time, so that's the capability he revealed.

 

In the second Pale Martian arc, they fought with all the gloves *off*... which is why the JLA got hammered like nails in about 20 seconds flat. Reflect upon the power level it takes to do that.

[Chuckg]

> Vandal Savage is a Flash-family villain.

> Vandal Savage has been a Flash-family villain for years.

> If anyone would have specifically-designed foci to fight a

> Flash, it's him.

> Thus, Jesse Quick has no reason at all to expect any sort of

> trap from this villain that has fought her kind for years.

 

Note for those who haven't read the comic and are relying upon the, ahem, selective rendition of events that was given here...

 

Vandal Savage, in civilian clothes, was attending a Russian arms dealer auction -- that the Titans were sneaking up and ambushing.

 

So it wasn't stupid for Jesse Quick to think that she had the advantage of surprise.

 

It also wasn't stupid for Jesse to think that Savage hadn't showed up with specific anti-Flash gear that day, as he was *not* -- as far as she could possibly know -- coming out to do major battle... he was attending a black-market auction.

 

It's also not stupid for the team speedster to think that she can reach a target standing only a short distance away before he can realize he's under attack, haul out a Focus, and activate it -- especially when said villain moves at normal human speed, and you have the Speed Force.

 

As it turned out, however, Vandal Savage made a successful Danger Sense roll. By half.

 

*zorch*

 

(Note -- there was also the thing that Savage's people had earlier spotted the Titans stealthed airplane on approach... and the Titans hadn't known that they were spotted. So Savage was significantly more alert and ready for trouble than they had any rational reason to expect him to be.)

 

There was the slight omission of fact you made that the reasons the Titans had broken cover and attacked is because the arms dealer in question had just broken out five black-market Rocket Red warsuits -- which have nuclear capability. Seeing nuclear WMDs about to be sold to Vandal Savage forced them to try and disrupt the meeting, regardless of risk.

 

> The fact that I wrote up the power differently than you

> would doesn't mean I'm getting the facts wrong.

 

The fact that you omitted a buttload of relevant details about the scene in question, and slanted some others in presentation, does mean.

[SleepyDrug]

DC Heavyweights

Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Captain Marvel, Warrior, Metamorpho, Metamorpho II, Power Girl, Atom-Smasher, Steel III, Zauriel, Big Barda, Black Adam, Hourman II, Grace, Cyborg, Starfire II, Superboy, Wonder Girl, Captain Marvel Jr, Mary Marvel, Red Star, Supergirl, Damage, Captain Atom, Devilfish, The General, Solomon Grundy, Ubermensch

DC Powerhouses

Flash, Flash III, Firestorm, Atom II, Ray II, Green Lantern V, Green Lantern, Green Lantern III, Faith, Red Tornado II, Stargirl, Indigo, Kid Flash II, Crimson Avenger III, Beast Boy, Jesse Quick, Argent, Amazo, Abra Kadabra, Icicle, Eclipso, Xotar the Weapons Master

DC Mystics and Psi's

Zatanna, Jason Blood/The Demon, Manitou Raven, Dr. Fate IV, JJ Thunder, Brainwave II, Faust, Felix Faust, Tempest II, Raven, Hector Hammond, Zaladin, Cerce, Gorilla Grodd

DC Greatest Fighters

Black Canary II, Batman, Green Arrow, Plastic Man, Wildcat, Green Arrow II, Mr. Terrific II, Arsenal, Deathstroke, Shiva, Cheshire, Batgirl III, Nightwing, Prometheus, Vandel Savage, Ra's al Ghul

 

anyone missing?

(white martians are both non-earth based and dead)

 

Marvel Heavyweights

Thor, Hulk, Giant-Man, Hercules, Vision, Wonder Man, Warbird, She-Hulk, Namor, Thing, Spider-Man, Rage, Nova, Sandman, Atlas, Namorita, Rogue, Sunspot, Absorbing Man, Titania, Abomination, Count Nefaria, Juggernaut, Sasquatch, Awesome Andriod, Blob, Wrecker, Carnage, Venom, Hydro-Man, Giant-Man II, Gargantua, Gray Gargoyle, Tiger Shark, Orka, Mr Hyde, Quicksand, Rhino, Sabretooth, Super Skrull

Marvel Powerhouses

Iron Man, Quicksilver, Photon, War Machine, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Human Torch II, Quasar, Justice, Firestar, Songbird, Moonstone, Fixer, Speedball, Cyclops, Iceman, Havok, Polaris, Storm, Sunfire, Gambit, Bishop, Lifeguard, Thunderbird III, Magma, Cloak, Ghost Rider, Magneto, Mandarin, Dr Doom, War Machine II, Cannonball, Captain Marvel III, Mach-3, Crimson Dynamo, Deathlok, Fin Fang Foom, Klaw, Graviton, Kang, Mimic, Radioactive Man, Speed Demon, Ultron

Marvel Mystics and Psi's

Scarlet Witch, Moondragon, Sersi, Phoenix, Professor X, Forge, Emma Frost, Sage, Karma, Cable, Dr Strange, Gargoyle II, Jennifer Kale, Magik II, Mentallo, Mastermind II, Lady Mastermind, MODOK, Modred the Mystic

Marvel Greatest Fighters

Captain America, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Black Knight, Black Widow, Beast, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Taskmaster

 

anyone missing?

(most of Dr Strange's foes and the Squadron Supreme are off-earth; Super Skrull is on earth in exile)

 

if we're just counting the top end heroes and villains ON-EARTH....then DC is slightly outgunned.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Lessee, we need Professor X to fend of Martian Manhunter.

> Let's say Moondragon to handle Gorilla Grodd. Emma Frost

> to match Deadman. Karma matches Jericho. That still leaves [snip]

 

Why are you having the DC characters just stand around with their thumbs up their butt and let themselves get locked up in one-on-one matches calculated to grant Marvel the widest possible victory?

 

Yet again, Team DCU isn't given the strategic aptitude of a grape.

 

Hint -- if one Pale Martian can mind-control 1/3rd of a city, then J'onn's talents are really wasted going and picking a fight with Xavier if he can simply wipe out every Marvel character without a mind-shield in the first 0.0001 seconds of the fight... and remember, J"onn has superspeed as well as telepathy.

 

Umm, at the very least, Professor X and Moondragon have Egos at least as high as Manhunter's Dex. One of them gets to lock Manhunter in psychic battle, and the other will do the mass mind control thing on all of DC's unshielded minds. That's not even including all the other mega powerful Marvel mentallists that I've previously listed.

 

I forgot another one. Amoul Farouk. He's essentially another Professor X in terms of mental power.

[Chuckg]

You forgot Mordru -- in the 20th-century, he's Earth-based.

 

I also find it curious that you list Wonder Girl as a 'heavyweight', but forget Captain Atom. (Granted, he just "died" again in Superman/Batman #6, but I'm not expecting to last very long this time either.)

[Chuckg]

> Umm, at the very least, Professor X and Moondragon

> have Egos at least as high as Manhunter's Dex. [snip]

 

Again -- I'm not using game mechanics here, I'm using the comics. In order to use game mechanics, we'd all have to unanimously agree on the point conversions for every character involved first... and Hell will freeze over /twice/ befoer /that/ ever happens here.

 

But even if we did do that, you're still hosed...

 

[snip]

> One of them gets to lock Manhunter in psychic battle, [snip]

 

Post-Segment 12, J'onn puts up an Invisibility To Mental Sense Group and Unusual Detects, no fringe.

 

Segment 2, he activates all his other Invisibility powers, MegaScale movements to the hex behind Xavier's chair, and crushes Xavier's skull. (In "Terror Incognita", J'onn smashes six large buildings spaced equidistantly out over the entire surface of the globe in less than a second, so trust me, he can /do/ MegaScale move-bys. Heck, forget Xavier, he can do the same to every other telepath you have in the same action that doesn't have a Superman-class durable skull.)

 

In order to successfully use a mental power, Xavier must get either physical LOS or a Mind Scan lock. J'onn can easily deny them both.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Chuckg

I was right. You guys *are* trying to hand yourselves a cheap win by creatively assuming that the other side are all retarded, while overinflating the genius of your own.

 

Me? I don't care either way who wins, partially because when these kinds of crossovers are written, any sense or logic we come up with in a discussion like this are tossed out the window.

[Chuckg]

> Me? I don't care either way who wins, [snip]

 

If you don't care, then why are you here?

 

I find statements of 'I don't care about the outcome' coming from people who are actually making efforts to participate in the outcome to be slightly, ummm, incongrous.

[Gary]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug

anyone missing?

 

Pretty good list. Off hand, a glaring omission are the Eternals who chose to remain on Earth. That's some hefty firepower. Thena, Phastos, Forgotten One, Makkari, Ikarus, Sprite, Cybele, and probably a few more that I'm missing. Each one is hideously powerful, although Thena and Sersi are probably the most dangerous.