Snow for sale!

[BoneDaddy]

Here's the situation: Instead of an IceMan type character, I'm working on a snow based special effect. It covers a lot of different maneuvers - entangle, darkness, a variety of EBs, and a change environment. I'd like to also have the ability to create a lot of snow.

 

I hear some of you thinking "well, duh." But this special effect is useful for more things than are covered by the EC and multipower I have in mind, and a VPP isn't what I'm after.

 

Potential uses for a lot of snow: Putting out fires. Entertaining children. Preserving a severed limb. Snow Cones. A variety of truly impractical jokes (filling the heromobile with snow, or Obsidian's room, or an elevator). Creating a hasty crash pad.

 

Potential drawbacks from creating a huge amount of snow: After you stop the bank robbery, the bank lobby is hip deep in snow. This is only marginally better than being robbed. Anyone can tell where you've been working by the slush you leave in your wake. Its at least as much of a curse as a blessing.

 

So, 2 issues: 1. How much snow does a Transform - air into snow - create? $1000/body isn't really that helpful. What's snow worth? 10 pounds of ice is a dollar. That's 5 tons of snow /body rolled. That's too darn much snow. On the other hand, how much body does a given volume of snow have? Any help here is good help.

 

2. Is this a disadvantage? I was thinking of it as an automatic 30 point side effect (making ten tons of snow with every EB is a serious liability). Is it a linked power? It has great uses sometimes, but not most of the time. Most of the time, its just a special effect that makes a mess. I know the rules say that special effects are sometimes a boon and sometimes a curse, but I think a particularly disadvantagous special effect might be a disadvantage - whaddya think, folks?

[Sociotard]

I think side-effects are limitations, not disadvantages. The problem here is that the enemy will have just as much encumbrance from the snow as you. This feels like like a -1/2 or a -3/4 on whatever framework you come up with.

[BoneDaddy]

Originally posted by Sociotard

I think side-effects are limitations, not disadvantages. The problem here is that the enemy will have just as much encumbrance from the snow as you. This feels like like a -1/2 or a -3/4 on whatever framework you come up with.

 

Right - limitations. Powers have advantages and limitations, characters have powers and disadvantages. This belongs in that "One Thing" thread. Consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds.

 

I think I agree about the value. So what sort of limitation? Is it a side effect, and how much snow are we talking about here? I'll cheerfully accept naming suggestions, too, since "Snow Man" sounds almost half as heroic as "Captain Nor'easter", but twice as heroic as "Avalanche".

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Snow for sale!

 

Originally posted by BoneDaddy

So, 2 issues: 1. How much snow does a Transform - air into snow - create? $1000/body isn't really that helpful. What's snow worth? 10 pounds of ice is a dollar. That's 5 tons of snow /body rolled. That's too darn much snow. On the other hand, how much body does a given volume of snow have? Any help here is good help.

 

What's money got to do with it?

[Sociotard]

I'll cheerfully accept naming suggestions, too, since "Snow Man" sounds almost half as heroic as "Captain Nor'easter", but twice as heroic as "Avalanche".

Dander Boy?

 

Old Yellow?

 

Yeti The Penguinator? (I hope you've played that game)

 

It's either a wierd visible or a side effect, and I'm leaning towards side effect. Does your character have environmental movement: slush? Or life support: cold environments? Or good water damage insurance? All that playes into account.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Re: Snow for sale!

 

Originally posted by archer

What's money got to do with it?

When you use transform to make something out of nothing, the rules provide some guidance -nothing too useful, only temporary stuff, nothing too valuable, which is where the $1000/ body guidline comes in. No gutting the local economy, etc.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Re: Re: Snow for sale!

 

Originally posted by BoneDaddy

When you use transform to make something out of nothing, the rules provide some guidance -nothing too useful, only temporary stuff, nothing too valuable, which is where the $1000/ body guidline comes in. No gutting the local economy, etc.

 

Ahhhh. Use that when creating wealth, when specifically creating something that is used as money. I wouldn't use it when creating ice, snow, or water, even on the off chance you're in a culture where that stuff is used as money; stick with BODY and mass.

 

I recall seeing somewhere, perhaps on these boards, a listing showing the volume of one hex as around 7 cubic meters. The mass of one cubic meter of water is 1000 kilograms, making a full hex of water 7000 kilograms. Assume for the sake of ease of calculation that packed snow is one quarter as dense as water, so one full hex of snow would be approximately 1750 kilograms. Looking at the "Unliving" column on the Object Body Table on p. 304 of FREd, we find that that much mass has 11 BODY. A full hex of pure water would have just over 13 BODY.

 

From that same table, 1 BODY masses 1.6 kilograms, which would be the mass of 1 BODY worth of water.

 

After all of that is said and done, were I the GM I'd say roll the Transform dice, halve that value (because you have to do double the BODY to Transform something -- rolling 12 on the dice means you've Transformed 6 BODY worth of nothing) and that's how much BODY worth of water you get. 4d6 of Transform could get you a maximum of slightly less than half a full hex of water per use, and on average would get you about 100 kg of water per use (.1 cubic meter).

[austenandrews]

The general effect sounds like Change Environment: Snowy. I'd say it's either a Side Effect or a Linked power, depending on whether or not it hinders the character.

 

-AA

[Hugh Neilson]

Why not just look at Transform, where it suggests Create Water creates a gallon per BOD, say, and create some similar arbitrary amount for snow?

[dugfromthearth]

"Potential uses for a lot of snow: Putting out fires. Entertaining children. Preserving a severed limb. Snow Cones. A variety of truly impractical jokes (filling the heromobile with snow, or Obsidian's room, or an elevator). Creating a hasty crash pad."

 

most of these are simply entangle.

 

putting out fires: fire has uncontrolled with limitation it is put out by water (including snow).

 

Entertaining children: pre attack displaying a power

 

preserving a severed limb: no rules for this at all

 

filling rooms: creating walls of snow using the entangle power.

 

crash pad: this I'm not sure

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Snow for sale!

 

Originally posted by archer

After all of that is said and done, were I the GM I'd say roll the Transform dice, halve that value (because you have to do double the BODY to Transform something -- rolling 12 on the dice means you've Transformed 6 BODY worth of nothing) and that's how much BODY worth of water you get. 4d6 of Transform could get you a maximum of slightly less than half a full hex of water per use, and on average would get you about 100 kg of water per use (.1 cubic meter).

 

Sounds about right to me. Any of the powers I mentioned earlier I would expect to generate about 220 pounds of snow on an average attack at the levels I'm considering (a 9d6 EB).

 

Now - is it a limitation? How much? Is it just an expensive linked? I could make it a 30 active point side effect (snow doesn't last for weeks, more like hours, so I move the REC rate down a few levels per the FAQ) that always happens. I have a hard time imagining it as more than 1/2. The special effect helps me, but the leftovers are a real pain in the butt. A protracted fight, where I generate some darkness, entangle the speedster, and blast the big guy into a brickcicle will leave a few tons of snow in its wake. I am the mighty Captain Lake Effect (still not sure on a name) so it doesn't bother me, but the hostages I was rescuing need more rescuing at this point. When the Viper crew comes to try to find out who ambushed their ambush, the snow might just give me away (ya think?) When the team HQ keeps getting cleaing bills from places we've saved, it will be a more noticable limitation. It just isn't much of a combat limitation, aside from eliminating the possibility of stealth, and maybe risking filling in a close quarters.

 

How much snow is that, volumetricly? 3 times as much as liquid water, according to our online friends at uchicago and Mrs. Kostocowe's 2d grade class. That's about 82 gallons of snow per blast on average, or .3 cubic meter. Too much?

[Farkling]

A Transform should not be used to create the snow. That's NOT the power described. That is the special effect of the power. What have we got here?

 

Potential uses for a lot of snow: Putting out fires. Entertaining children. Preserving a severed limb. Snow Cones. A variety of truly impractical jokes (filling the heromobile with snow, or Obsidian's room, or an elevator). Creating a hasty crash pad.

Potential drawbacks from creating a huge amount of snow: After you stop the bank robbery, the bank lobby is hip deep in snow. This is only marginally better than being robbed. Anyone can tell where you've been working by the slush you leave in your wake. Its at least as much of a curse as a blessing.

 

Put out a fire. - I'd allow a snow entangle to extinguish a fire, after all, it can certainly contain it. Area Effect for a large fire. If a 10d6 EB, SFX - Waterblast can extringuish fires, so can the AE Entangle, SFX - Snow.

Entertain Children. - The single target Entangle slot OR a small transform.

Preserve a Limb. - The GM may not require this. A small Variable Effect transform should be capable of it though.

Snow Cones - Again, a single target Entangle slot OR a small transform.

Filling the Heromobile with snow - AE Entangle

Hasty Crash Pad - Heh. I'm looking at the AE Entangle again...

Bank hip deep in snow - AE Entangle

Slush left in wake - that's a given. Right under

visibility and detectability of poweers"

 

Okay...here are my EC slots::

One small Megascale Change Environment (Falling Snow)

 

One AE Entangle, possibly Megascaled once for a small Area. Possibly not. This Entangle has NO defense...only BODY. This simulates that people can travel through it with enough effort. It also allows fo the "crash pad" effect.

 

One Transform. Broad Group, "Snow Effects" - this will cover the snow cones, the limb, and can even cover a small fire. The AE Entangle can be used on large fires.

 

Other possible power constructs::

Running Drain coupled to the Change Enviro, for the "slightly deep snow, but non-immobilizing snowdrift"

AE Suppress - affects all fire simultaneously

Dispel EB - only versus fire or water. Instant snow drift.

Single Target Entangle - 2 DEF, Large BODY, arctic snowpack.