First Hero game

[Vorvodoss]

This post is slightly premature because I don't have the time to post in as great of detail as I'd like.

 

I ran my first HERO game last Sunday. It went ok (I was more focused on the system than the story but my players didn't seem to notice). I do have a number of things I need to work on and clarify and I'll be doing that between now and the next game.

 

One thing I really wanted to ask concerns combat initiation. In d20 or various other systems, I'm used to telling everyone to "roll initiative" which lets me know exactly when people are going. I like the HERO turn/segment/phase system but I had a real hard time getting combat flowing. I really wasn't sure, for example, if someone who started running on his Phase 8 was able to make it to his target by his Phase 12.

 

So, can y'all chime in and tell me how you (or your GMs) handle the beginning stages of combat and the flow of combat once it's started? I'd love some pointers to help me intiate and run combat more smoothly. Thanks!

[devlin1]

I know what you mean. "Roll for initiative" is the sentence that signifies that yes, combat is about to begin. What you need is a Hero-specific catchphrase that conveys that same sense of impending action. Try "Phase 12."

 

"You see him, he sees you, blah blah blah. Phase 12."

 

Then get their Phase 12 actions.

 

As for whether a guy will get from A on 8 to B on 12, that's just a matter of how far apart A and B are, and how far the guy can move in one Phase. Or is there another part to that that I'm missing?

[Monolith]

I agree with Devlin1. Saying "Phase 12" is how I've started combats for 15 years.

 

As far as movement, if you're not using a map of some sort then you must state from the beginning distances.

 

"Phase 12. You come around the corner and can see the outline of two shimmering individuals through the gloom. It's obvious they both have Force Fields on, and they appear to be looking in your direction. You are 40 (20 inches) meters from them. Nighthawk, you're first..."

 

At that point the player of Nighthawk knows he can only run 9", or 18" Noncombat. If he chooses to go Noncombat you tell him he will get within 2" of the "shimmering individuals" at the end of the phase. If he chooses to go Combat speed then he will be 11" away at the end of the Phase. Just jot that number down on your paper and them move on to Defender.

[Vorvodoss]

That helps a great deal. Where in FREd does it talk about starting combat on Phase 12. That's the major thing I wasn't doing. I was always starting combat on Phase 1 and then working through until someone had an action. I think starting on Phase 12 will be the biggest improvement on my game.

 

Any more suggestions? I do NOT use miniatures. Do you guys really suggest using them? I'm not a big fan because it makes game more like a boardgame than an RPG. I'm a fan of situations like this:

 

"You're facing three guards and they're advancing."

Player1: "I attack the closest guard to me."

Player2: "Is there a rock I can hide behind?"

(I hadn't said they WASN'T a rock and I can see what the player wants to do is more important than whether or not I had rocks planned): "Sure. You can reach it this round but can't attack."

Player3: "I'm gonna take care of the two guards Player1 can't reach."

 

This situation doesn't care about distances in the strictest sense and is how I ran games and played games before miniatures becamse widespread. It allows my players to do the things they WANT to do rather than the things the rules dicate they can do.

[Monolith]

As far as the Phase 12 comment, it's on page 233. Upper right corner.

 

I like to use cardboard minis myself. That way I can easily use Range Modifiers and other things to make the game more interesting.

[devlin1]

I don't know where the book says it, but combats start on 12, then everybody gets his/her Post-12 Recovery, and then it's on.

 

As for using figs or not using figs, you can't have it both ways. Either you let the rules dictate what a character can do in a round (how far he can travel, what he can see, etc.), or you play it fast and loose and don't worry about what the rules say when it comes to whether a guy can get from A on 8 to B on 12.

 

I like using figs, personally. In fact, I wouldn't want to do it any other way. It's immensely helpful to let the players (and you) see spatial relationships, distances, and the like. It would especially help you know how far apart A and B are.

 

And if there isn't a boulder drawn on the battlemap and you want there to be one-- shoot, boy, you just draw that boulder in.

[Pattern Ghost]

I just make gross generalizations about the distances. =)

 

You might want to track distances for chases, but otherwise all you really need to know is relative movement speeds.

[pinecone]

Annother way to smooth out "who goes?" is scibble down everyones speed and Dex, so that way you can skip over empty phases...."Phase 12!" (Que "mortal combat" music)....phase two Atomic smash man,Dex 30..."Uh...I...Hold...(just like he does every phase), Evil android 18 goes on dex 29.......etc...

[Guest Keneton]

Figures or Cardboard Minis + Mega or Mondomat is best. You will never regret it. Less is never more in this arena. Do not mistake tacticle movement and concrete range modifiers for slighting roleplaying. The two coexist quite nicley.

 

Good luck, you've been doing great so far!

[Vorvodoss]

The issue of miniatures, etc. was decided for me when I used to run CoC. I'd often have people confused with what the miniatures represented and what was actually happening.

 

I can give you guys an example why I'm not a big fan of Figs.

 

During this most recent game, two of the PCs were trying to rescue the third PC (who didn't know the first two were trying to help him, no less). PC3 was in the back of a flying police car some three hundred feet above the ground while the other two were in an automated cab. Both vehicles were a mere three feet apart and PC1 decided to leap into the police car to attack the fakey police. One of the police get tossed and it was up to PC2 to stomp down on his fingers sending him plummeting to his doom. Then, PC2 tried to help PC3 who attacked PC2 thinking he was a bad guy. They begin to scuffle. PC1, meanwhile, has slammed the second fake police man into a forcefield separating the front seat from the back, cooking the faux cop to a crisp. He grabs the cop's gun and points it at PC3. "We're trying to help you escape this mess, you idiot...not into the cab." Combat over.

 

As you can see, Figs would have greatly complicated things. Also, they wouldn't have conveyed the feeling of being three hundred feet in the air while this was happening OR being is such tight quarters. The only thing that went bad in this combat was in the beginning when the PCs declared they were attacking and I wasn't sure who really went first (being that I didn't start them on Phase 12 like I should have).

 

Hope you enjoyed the situation. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss

Hope you enjoyed the situation. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

My thought: yeah, I wouldn't have pulled out the figs for that specific situation, either. But I hardly think it's fair to reject all use of miniatures based solely on that one unusual circumstance.

 

However, in the end, it's your universe. If no figs is working for you, then stay the course.

[Killer Shrike]

You will have a much harder time doing HERO System combats without some kind of board elements IMO, but if you can pull it off more power to you.

 

As far as representing being off the ground, just use die or dice to indicate altitude -- a good use for stray d20's. If they are 30 hexes up, put a 20 face up and a 10 face up on 2 d20's. If more extreme ranges are involved, use one or more d10's as a multiplier (so a d20 showing 15 and 2d10's totaling 12 indicates 15*12=180" of altitude). If everyone is at high altitude just divide the altitude by 5 or 10 to shorten the scale.

 

If you are doing high speed chases, again divide all movement by 5 or 10" to shorten the scale. The same action happens, but you dont have to keep "paging" the hex map.

 

 

As far as doing combat, on page 233 of FRED under the heading "BEGINNING COMBAT", the first sentence reads "Combat always begins on Segment 12".

 

Personally I find a DEX SPD and Phase chart to be handy. Something like this:

 

Name	DEX	SPD	SPD Chart
Ayden Hrædaled	15	5	12			3		5			8		10
Spatzenwere	20	4	12			3			6			9
Hrani "Refskegg" Thórarinnsson	17	4	12			3			6			9
Rogate Turvoldsen	17	4	12			3			6			9
Spatzenwolf	17	4	12			3			6			9
Spatzenjager	11	4	12			3			6			9
Fyrclian Beørgansen	17	3	12				4				8
Sonnenwende Mondfeuer	15	3	12				4				8
Gorurbar Raxatar	11	3	12				4				8
Saemund Magnussun	11	3	12				4				8
Kjar Kvaransen	11	3	12				4				8
Vémundr "Thrymri" Finnvarsson	12	2	12						6

 

Just start in 12 and count down the DEX order. I use a small white board for jotting temp notes like held actions, flashes, NPC damage, and so forth.

 

Good luck!

[Killer Shrike]

PS: alternately, if it's easier for you, order by DEX and then SPD. Seems to go easier on some peoples brains:

 

Name	DEX	SPD	SPD Chart
Spatzenwere	20	4	12			3			6			9
Hrani "Refskegg" Thórarinnsson	17	4	12			3			6			9
Rogate Turvoldsen	17	4	12			3			6			9
Spatzenwolf	17	4	12			3			6			9
Fyrclian Beørgansen	17	3	12				4				8
Ayden Hrædaled	15	5	12			3		5			8		10
Sonnenwende Mondfeuer	15	3	12				4				8
Vémundr "Thrymri" Finnvarsson	12	2	12						6
Spatzenjager	11	4	12			3			6			9
Gorurbar Raxatar	11	3	12				4				8
Saemund Magnussun	11	3	12				4				8
Kjar Kvaransen	11	3	12				4				8

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Name	DEX	SPD	SPD Chart
Ayden Hrædaled	15	5	12

3 5 8 10 Spatzenwere 20 4 12 3 6 9 Hrani "Refskegg" Thórarinnsson 17 4 12 3 6 9 Rogate Turvoldsen 17 4 12 3 6 9 Spatzenwolf 17 4 12 3 6 9 Spatzenjager 11 4 12 3 6 9 Fyrclian Beørgansen 17 3 12 4 8 Sonnenwende Mondfeuer 15 3 12 4 8 Gorurbar Raxatar 11 3 12 4 8 Saemund Magnussun 11 3 12 4 8 Kjar Kvaransen 11 3 12 4 8 Vémundr "Thrymri" Finnvarsson 12 2 12 6

 

Those are some names. What, did you have the players pick letters at random from a hat?

 

I know, I know... they're Norse/Viking/Scandinavian/etc., but for the sake of the joke, go along with it.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by devlin1

Those are some names. What, did you have the players pick letters at random from a hat?

 

I know, I know... they're Norse/Viking/Scandinavian/etc., but for the sake of the joke, go along with it.

At least they arent Slavic. You want to talk about difficult to spell and pronounce.....(dont tell my wife I said that btw -- thanx!)....

[Vorvodoss]

But I hardly think it's fair to reject all use of miniatures based solely on that one unusual circumstance.

I don't want anyone to think that I was judging anyone's use of figs. In fact, they work for most people nowadays but I have always found them somewhat distracting and useless IMO. If you have found a way to make them work for you in your game, I admire you. So please don't think I'm "rejecting" ALL use of figs.

[devlin1]

It's always tough in an election year, isn't it?

[Killer Shrike]

Here's a more super-hero chart w/ more spread, where the need for this sort of thing becomes more apparant.

 

Name	DEX	SPD	SPD Chart
Hype	33	8	12		2	3		5	6		8	9		11
Chitin	13/27	3/5	12			3		5			8		10
Agent X	25	6	12		2		4		6		8		10
War-Man	13/25	3/6	12		2		4		6		8		10
John Wrath, Solo Avenger	25	5	12			3		5			8		10
Rook	18	4	12			3			6			9
White Dwarf	18	4	12			3			6			9
Major Savage	24/16	6	12		2		4		6		8		10

[Quasar]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss

I don't want anyone to think that I was judging anyone's use of figs. In fact, they work for most people nowadays but I have always found them somewhat distracting and useless IMO. If you have found a way to make them work for you in your game, I admire you. So please don't think I'm "rejecting" ALL use of figs.

 

Not that I'm trying to change any minds here, but I've played it both ways and I don't understand how I ever played w/o miniatures. If you want to see a really dynamic example of how we use miniatures in Champions, and you're going to be at Origins, sign up for or watch one or both of the following events...

 

The Champions On Monster Island

Event Number: 6513

Age Restriction Players must be: At least 13.

Date Thursday, June 24 - 10:00 AM

Length 5 hours, 45 minutes

Location TBD

Game System Hero Sytem Fifth Edition/Champions Current Edition

XP Some

Cost $4.50

Description: Millennium City's premier superhero team is needed once again. Someone has taken control of Monster Island. Can the Champions stop a 75 meter tall radioactive lizard?

 

..or..

 

The Phazor's Grand Tournament

Event Number: 6524

Age Restriction Players must be: At least 13.

Date Friday, June 25 - 09:00 PM

Length 5 hours, 45 minutes

Location TBD

Game System Hero System Fifth Edition/Champions Current Edition

XP Extensive

Cost $4.50

Description: Come and take part in a grand tournament before the great Phazor of Malva. Who will advance to claim the title and partake of the treasures of the greatest ruler of this galaxy?

 

We drape a mondomat over the gaming table and all combats are tactically displayed, and we had some of the best role-playing I've seen by groups of complete strangers in my entire life. When I hear people say that use of miniatures detracts from good role-playing or are distracting in some way, I just can't understand what they must be doing when they use them. The use of miniatures enhances our games immeasurably.

 

Quasar

Leader of Millennium Force

[Quasar]

Yeah, okay well maybe I am trying to change some minds.

 

So sue me.

 

Quasar

Leader of Millennium Force

[Vorvodoss]

We should, I think, define what we all think of as roleplaying. Some people I've met look at roleplaying the same way Final Fantasy et. al. look at roleplaying: as a series of strategic battles and events. Others of us see roleplaying as playacting through dramatic situations. Neither way is better or worse than the other but they each have there own impact on certain elements of roleplaying (speed of combat, character creation, and use of miniatures).

 

I'm not suggesting that anyone who has posted so far plays one way or the other. My games focus more on the interaction between characters in a dramatic sense and don't often resort to combat in the traditional sense (most combat is unique and difficult to miniaturize).

 

So, do you agree that the WAY we roleplay impacts the tools we use?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss

We should, I think, define what we all think of as roleplaying. Some people I've met look at roleplaying the same way Final Fantasy et. al. look at roleplaying: as a series of strategic battles and events. Others of us see roleplaying as playacting through dramatic situations. Neither way is better or worse than the other but they each have there own impact on certain elements of roleplaying (speed of combat, character creation, and use of miniatures).

 

I'm not suggesting that anyone who has posted so far plays one way or the other. My games focus more on the interaction between characters in a dramatic sense and don't often resort to combat in the traditional sense (most combat is unique and difficult to miniaturize).

 

So, do you agree that the WAY we roleplay impacts the tools we use?

Well, theres many levels here. It sounds like you assume that using miniatures is the same as wargaming. However the presense of miniatures as a tool to speed combats by making it easier to correlate characters and remember where people are from one action to the next does not turn off the capability to roleplay characters.

 

Either way, i would say this, if I were of a mind to play or run a almost pure ROLE-playing game with minimal or very light combat resolution, I would probably pick a different game system to do it with.

 

Much of the strength of the HERO System lies in its crunchy mechcanics and preoccupation with second by second resolution of actions. It is very precise in terms of distances, movement, and so forth with everything very firmly fixed and assigned.

 

Not super-conducive to loose amber or saga-like dramatic determination. IMO of course.

 

I dont know, when I go to a steak joint I order steak, not chicken -- if I wanted chicken I would have gone to a chicken place, if you get my meaning. Coming into a strictly definition oriented game like the HERO System I would opt to take advantage of that definition rather than trying to fast-and-loose it. If I wanted fast and loose I'd pick a system designed for that.

[Vorvodoss]

It sounds like you assume that using miniatures is the same as wargaming.

Not at all. Wargaming wasn't even entering my mind.

 

The main reason I switched to the HERO system for my game was that I wanted to run a more scifi based aspect of gaming as well as fantasy. HERO allows for more accurate and individualized character creation. If I could somehow hybrid the d20 version of combat with the HERO system, I would, but it would take me too long to hybrid the two to allow for armor class and the like. Therefore, I'll just get better at running HERO combat. ^.^

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss

Not at all. Wargaming wasn't even entering my mind.

 

The main reason I switched to the HERO system for my game was that I wanted to run a more scifi based aspect of gaming as well as fantasy. HERO allows for more accurate and individualized character creation. If I could somehow hybrid the d20 version of combat with the HERO system, I would, but it would take me too long to hybrid the two to allow for armor class and the like. Therefore, I'll just get better at running HERO combat. ^.^

I think youll find that the 3e/d20 combat system bears an uncanny resemblance to HERO System combat under the hood.

 

You can approximate the AC and Target Number concept if you want by using a formula to flip the to-hit and skill rolls to a target number system. Somebody else might be able to post the formula, or a board search might turn it up for you.

[Vorvodoss]

I think youll find that the 3e/d20 combat system bears an uncanny resemblance to HERO System combat under the hood.

How so?