UNTIL Supercriminal Tactical Reference Manual

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I have to agree with Gary. Have you looked at Menton's BOECV Entangle? It is seriously overpowered. Most Mentalists can't break free of it. My PCs actually fought Menton, who was unable to use his telepathic powers for the first turn(inhibitor field). He held his own with his Telekinetic powers for the first turn. As soon as his mental powers came back....game over. If the BOECV Entangle doesn't screw you, the all senses Flash will. Two of my characters had Mental Defense. Didn't matter. It's a 6 dice Entangle. Meaning....on average....EGO 30 is stuck indefinitely.

 

Rob

[Lord Liaden]

Well, Menton's Mental Paralysis is also Limited to allow for Mental Defense to add to EGO point-for-point for purposes of breaking out. Very few EGO 30 mentalists don't have some points of Mental Defense. You're also allowed to Push your EGO in this case. Mental Paralysis can also be broken by rolling for Normal Damage BODY for Ego Attack or any BOECV attack which does STUN and/or BODY.

 

When you get right down to it, though, this is a DC 30 attack, the biggest in Menton's repertoire (not to mention the most costly in END). It should be fearsome. In his own way Menton is as deadly a foe as Dr. Destroyer.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

True. I'm not saying he shouldn't have it. Just responding to the post that said their players would easily shrug it off, which I found highly unlikely. Menton, as the world's most powerful psionic, SHOULD be a powerhouse. In all honesty though, Menton has absolutely no good reason to ever fight fair. He can easily avoid a head to head fight. He could defeat an entire superteam without ever seeing their faces(Mind Scan). I see this as his prefered method of "direct" confrontation.

 

Rob

[Chuckg]

> The Mental Entangle affects everyone. There is no class of

> minds associated with it.

 

Special Effect rule. Menton cannot affect the Machine class of minds with his telepathy, and the thing has a telepathic special effect. It is an entirely justifiable DM call to haul out a 0-point Limitation on that Mental Entangle, "Does Not Affect Machines".

 

Microman II, our group's shrinking brick/gadgeteer, is a pure Commander Data style android. For him to be taken out by a non-cyberkinetic telepathic paralysis attack is just not sensible.

 

> How many people in your group have Ego + MD of 60+?

 

Two -- Psi Legionnaire (our mentalist), and Warmaster Fielan (our martial artist/mentalist).

 

Our team brick (Horus-Re) is next up with a combined EGO + MD of 50.

 

My own character, Starguard, has an EGO of 21 and no Mental Defense -- but she also has an 80-point Cosmic Power Pool.

 

Then again, we /are/ a 750-point superteam intended to be our world's JLA equivalent.

 

 

re: the Mind Scan sniping -- against us, that works for one phase -- and then the Warmaster chucks out his Area Effect Invisibility vs. Mental Sense group (or, alternatively, his Darkness vs. Mental Sense Group), and Menton is left going "God damn that Mind Scan jamming field!"

[Lord Liaden]

This tactical discussion implicitly posits confronting Menton face-to-face, but even if his foes knew where to find him, with his senses Menton would likely detect their approach before they got near him, and simply Teleport away to a safe distance. ChuckG once put it best: Menton won't be found unless he wants to be.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Chuckg

The Mental Entangle affects everyone. There is no class of

> minds associated with it.

 

Special Effect rule. Menton cannot affect the Machine class of minds with his telepathy, and the thing has a telepathic special effect. It is an entirely justifiable DM call to haul out a 0-point Limitation on that Mental Entangle, "Does Not Affect Machines".

 

Microman II, our group's shrinking brick/gadgeteer, is a pure Commander Data style android. For him to be taken out by a non-cyberkinetic telepathic paralysis attack is just not sensible.

 

It's a justifiable DM call to add on an arbitrary limitation to a power that is worth -1/2 for 0 points and no compensation?

 

I call that 'the first strike for this game'.

 

From what I understand... shutting down electrical impulses is fairly standard operation for a mental entangle. Especially if, for whatever reason, it affects AI's and robots.

 

He's telekinetic anyway, right?

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> How many people in your group have Ego + MD of 60+?

 

Two -- Psi Legionnaire (our mentalist), and Warmaster Fielan (our martial artist/mentalist).

 

Our team brick (Horus-Re) is next up with a combined EGO + MD of 50.

 

My own character, Starguard, has an EGO of 21 and no Mental Defense -- but she also has an 80-point Cosmic Power Pool.

 

Then again, we /are/ a 750-point superteam intended to be our world's JLA equivalent.

 

 

re: the Mind Scan sniping -- against us, that works for one phase -- and then the Warmaster chucks out his Area Effect Invisibility vs. Mental Sense group (or, alternatively, his Darkness vs. Mental Sense Group), and Menton is left going "God damn that Mind Scan jamming field!"

 

Of course, he's probably screwed 1 on 6 anyway.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Special Effect rule. Menton cannot affect the Machine class of minds with his telepathy, and the thing has a telepathic special effect. It is an entirely justifiable DM call to haul out a 0-point Limitation on that Mental Entangle, "Does Not Affect Machines".

 

Microman II, our group's shrinking brick/gadgeteer, is a pure Commander Data style android. For him to be taken out by a non-cyberkinetic telepathic paralysis attack is just not sensible.

 

It makes perfect sense that a telekinetic telepath can shut down a machine.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

Two -- Psi Legionnaire (our mentalist), and Warmaster Fielan (our martial artist/mentalist).

 

Our team brick (Horus-Re) is next up with a combined EGO + MD of 50.

 

My own character, Starguard, has an EGO of 21 and no Mental Defense -- but she also has an 80-point Cosmic Power Pool.

 

Then again, we /are/ a 750-point superteam intended to be our world's JLA equivalent.

 

Here's where Menton pulls out his secret weapon. He spent 5 whole points to buy off that MD adds to Ego limitation, and now it's just raw Ego to break out of the paralysis.

[Chuckg]

> It makes perfect sense that a telekinetic telepath can shut

> down a machine.

 

It makes zero sense that a telekinetic entangle would go against EGO + Mental Defense.

 

And a telepathic entangle vs. the Machine class of mind would obviously require you to have Machine-class telepathy.

[Chuckg]

> It's a justifiable DM call to add on an arbitrary limitation to a

> power that is worth -1/2 for 0 points and no compensation?

 

Equally as justifiable as ruling that Flame Boy is going to have a bit of trouble underwater or in a nitrogen atmosphere, for a -0 limitation, as part of the special effect for /his/ attacks.

 

Edit -- looked it up in the FAQ:

 

Q: Can a BOECV power affect any class of minds, or just one?

 

A: Typically a BOECV power should only work against one class of minds, as with Mental Powers, but the GM may want to change this in the interest of common sense, dramatic sense, or game balance.

 

By allowing Menton's BOECV entangle to work vs. three classes of mind, and not just one, I'm being *generous*. Strictly speaking, I could narrow it down to one class alone from the writeup... allowing him to have all the classes of mind he paid the advantage cost for on his Telepathy for free is a DM gimme.

 

[snip]

> From what I understand... shutting down electrical impulses

> is fairly standard operation for a mental entangle.

 

If it's an electrical attack, then why is it working against EGO + Mental Defense instead of ED?

[Gary]

We should find out in the morning. I posted the question on the Rules Questions board.

[Chuckg]

*points up*

 

I just edited my last post to reflect what I found in the FAQ:

 

Q: Can a BOECV power affect any class of minds, or just one?

 

A: Typically a BOECV power should only work against one class of minds, as with Mental Powers, but the GM may want to change this in the interest of common sense, dramatic sense, or game balance.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> It's a justifiable DM call to add on an arbitrary limitation to a

> power that is worth -1/2 for 0 points and no compensation?

 

Equally as justifiable as ruling that Flame Boy is going to have a bit of trouble underwater or in a nitrogen atmosphere, for -a 0 limitation, as part of the special effect for /his/ attacks.

 

In other words, only if you're out to screw them.

Flame Boy might still be able to create the heat. Water only puts out fire that uses ambient oxygen. Ditto for nitrogen.

 

If Flame Boy didn't take 'not underwater' (which is, incidently, a lesser limitation than you're imposing), then odds are, he might want to be able to be hot stuff undercov...underwater.

 

If the SFX aren't crystal clear, then go with the damn character sheet.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> From what I understand... shutting down electrical impulses

> is fairly standard operation for a mental entangle.

 

If it's an electrical attack, then why is it working against EGO + Mental Defense instead of ED?

 

Because it's in their brain, not their body? Because, technically, it would need to work against the ED of their neurons/pathways? Because Cyberkinetic Mind Control (forex) does exactly that, and IT works against EGO+Mental Defense? Because 'sheer will power' enales you to get your mind back in action... as does 'robust programming'?

 

(yawn)

 

Sleepy. G'night.

[Gary]

Ok, the FAQ certainly settles that question.

[Chuckg]

> In other words, only if you're out to screw them.

 

Read the special effects rules on page 70 of the BBB.

 

[snip]

> If Flame Boy didn't take 'not underwater' (which is,

> incidently, a lesser limitation than you're imposing), then

> odds are, he might want to be able to be hot stuff

> undercov...underwater.

 

Again, read page 70. The drawbacks and bonuses of a given SFX generally average out. For example, Flame Boy gets no points for 'has trouble underwater'. OTOH, he also doesn't have to buy a MegaScale Area Effect 0 END Uncontrolled Continuous in order to start a forest fire, whereas Force Bolt Dude works just fine underwater, but needs to haul around a Zippo just to light his cigar.

 

> If the SFX aren't crystal clear, then go with the damn

> character sheet.

 

The SFX for Menton's BOECV Entangle *is* crystal clear, unless you're being completely obtuse. He has two main categories of power -- telepathy and telekinesis. Since an EGO + MD BOECV effect is obviously not telekinetic in nature, it's telepathic.

 

[snip electrical BS]

And your whole point here is massively irrelevant. The FAQ explicitly says that BOECV powers use the same Classes rules that other Mental Powers do. The rules back me up, and all your speculations are wrong.

 

Sure, you can house rules it however you want in your game... but that's what you're putting down here. House rules. Not the default rules.

[Metaphysician]

Okay, next up: Takofanes. Assume that any preexisting minions are a non-issue ( due to allies fighting them off, say, allowing you to get a shot at the Big Guy ).

 

How do you take him??

[Lord Liaden]

Ugh. Takofanes is a tough one. His defenses are broad and massive, and he can attack you almost any way imaginable. He doesn't have any outstanding physical weaknesses except to "holy" objects and beings. I suppose it's too much to hope for to take the fight over consecrated ground.

 

In my own games I've defined "holy power" as that derived from any modern or mythic deity of essentially benevolent attitude; so priests of Thor, avatars of Athena etc. would qualify as wielding holy power, and that type of character is far from rare in comics. Assuming a GM allowed that definition, any such being on a super team should take point in an assault on Takofanes.

 

The Archlich's OCV is good but not great, so if the team has really accurate ranged fighters they should stand off as far as possible and snipe at him. Takofanes can configure his VPP for AoE attacks, of course, but at least the damage will be less. OTOH if he uses Mental Power Attacks instead things will likely get as ugly as they would against Menton.

 

Otherwise, the standard anti-Big Bad tactics we've talked about apply here too: spread out so it's harder for him take out several heroes at once; surround him so some of you can attack him from his blind side; hit him hard and fast with coordinated attacks to try to Stun him before he unloads the heavy artillery on you; and pray a lot.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Takofanes is a toss up. The main problem is his 75% Damage Reduction. He also has most of the nonstandard defenses(mental defense,knockback resistance) at high levels. On the other hand, his PD/ED is a reasonable 25/25. I'd say definitely try to coordinate on him. Most standard attacks will do something, so it's worth a shot to have the whole team gang attack him. This would definitely be the time to apply levels to damage rather than to OCV.....as Takofanes isn't that hard to hit. Of course, his power pool will make things rough, but not much you can do about it. Overall, I think the "hit him hard and fast" approach would be more effective against Takofanes than many of the other villains in the CU.

 

Rob

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> In other words, only if you're out to screw them.

 

Read the special effects rules on page 70 of the BBB.

 

[snip]

> If Flame Boy didn't take 'not underwater' (which is,

> incidently, a lesser limitation than you're imposing), then

> odds are, he might want to be able to be hot stuff

> undercov...underwater.

 

Again, read page 70. The drawbacks and bonuses of a given SFX generally average out. For example, Flame Boy gets no points for 'has trouble underwater'. OTOH, he also doesn't have to buy a MegaScale Area Effect 0 END Uncontrolled Continuous in order to start a forest fire, whereas Force Bolt Dude works just fine underwater, but needs to haul around a Zippo just to light his cigar.

 

There are SFX for Fire Powers that WOULD work underwater. Fire with it's own oxygen, forex. Sadly... the only functional differance between 'provides own fuel guy' and 'doesn't guy' is one of them doesn't get hosed by water. Therefore, doesn't work underwater is worth points.

 

Or it will be if you don't want every single flame using power to be defined as the first kind.

 

And Electricity or Plasma should be able to start forest fires too.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> If the SFX aren't crystal clear, then go with the damn

> character sheet.

 

The SFX for Menton's BOECV Entangle *is* crystal clear, unless you're being completely obtuse. He has two main categories of power -- telepathy and telekinesis. Since an EGO + MD BOECV effect is obviously not telekinetic in nature, it's telepathic.

 

[snip electrical BS]

And your whole point here is massively irrelevant. The FAQ explicitly says that BOECV powers use the same Classes rules that other Mental Powers do. The rules back me up, and all your speculations are wrong.

 

Sure, you can house rules it however you want in your game... but that's what you're putting down here. House rules. Not the default rules.

 

House rules? No. Simply put... I'd started replying before you posted the bit from the FAQ. Then I slept.

 

The FAQ is conclusive for Menton.

[Chuckg]

> There are SFX for Fire Powers that WOULD work

> underwater. Fire with it's own oxygen, forex.

 

Even fire with its own oxygen wouldn't /project/ worth a damn -- as witness what happens when you burn sodium underwater, for example. Ten feet away, nobody's feeling anything.

 

*Plasma projection* powers under water, OTOH, would be something else again... but those have their own SFX problems.

 

> Sadly... the only functional differance between 'provides

> own fuel guy' and 'doesn't guy' is one of them doesn't get

> hosed by water.

 

Incorrect. And if you want to dispute that, try firing a flamethrower underwater. Comes with its own fuel, and you still don't get that nice lovely flame jet.

[Lord Liaden]

Assuming we have Takofanes squared away, how about we depart for a moment from the master villains and tackle a villain team?

 

So, what would be the most effective tactics to use against Eurostar?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> There are SFX for Fire Powers that WOULD work

> underwater. Fire with it's own oxygen, forex.

 

Even fire with its own oxygen wouldn't /project/ worth a damn -- as witness what happens when you burn sodium underwater, for example. Ten feet away, nobody's feeling anything.

 

*Plasma projection* powers under water, OTOH, would be something else again... but those have their own SFX problems.

 

> Sadly... the only functional differance between 'provides

> own fuel guy' and 'doesn't guy' is one of them doesn't get

> hosed by water.

 

Incorrect. And if you want to dispute that, try firing a flamethrower underwater. Comes with its own fuel, and you still don't get that nice lovely flame jet.

 

I'll take your word on the flamethrower... for (hopefully) obvious reasons.

 

Even taking everything you say as true... it still burns. Their 'flaming fist' HKA or whatever is still working. They lost (some) range... but just about everything does. Most physical projectiles, for example. Or light based attacks.

 

Which is different from 'dunk him in a tank of whatever and he's helpless.

[Chuckg]

> Even taking everything you say as true... it still burns.

> Their 'flaming fist' HKA or whatever is still working.

 

Yes, it might be. OTOH, your flame bolt is going almost nowhere.

 

[snip]

> Which is different from 'dunk him in a tank of whatever and

> he's helpless.

 

Let me quote what I said:

 

"Equally as justifiable as ruling that Flame Boy is going to have a bit of trouble underwater or in a nitrogen atmosphere [...]"

 

I said 'a bit of trouble', so WTF are you talking about re: 'helpless'?

 

Great, yet again I end up in a huge argument because somebody simply couldn't be bothered to read what I was actually saying, but instead had to make a mountain of a gods-be-damned molehill.

 

*sheesh*

 

One of these days you guys are going to have to stop doing that.

[Metaphysician]

First rule of fighting Eurostar: get civilians away from them. They *WILL* take hostages and endanger bystanders.

 

Also, make sure that Scorpia doesn't get a clear shot at many of your people. No sense letting a brick get taken out of action because the little 1 pip RKA darts that deliver the nasty NND poison are Penetrating.

[Metaphysician]

Another good tactic: take out Fiacho. Its always a good idea to decapitate enemy groups.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Eurostar: Hmmm....it really depends a LOT on your group composition, but some general tactics might include:

 

1) Hit the soft targets first. Specifically, this means Scorpia. She's physically the weakest member and has a mean streak a mile wide AND a massive NND Killing Attack. Ultrasonique and Mentalla fall into this category as well.

 

2) Attack with sensory deprivation powers. Over half the group is vulnerable and I'd much rather have their members not able to see or hear. Durak would be my prime target for such tactics. Fiacho has Combat Sense and Ultrasonique has his Sonar....so I'd not waste this tactic on them.

 

3) If your team includes a Mentalist, make finding and dealing with Mentalla a top priority. With her out of the way, Eurostar is reasonably vulnerable to a mental assault.

 

4) If you're true blue heroes, for the love of God get the normals away from there....even if it means wasting a phase or two. You'll feel better in the morning.

 

5)As a general rule, keep your distance. Eurostar is brutal in close quarters. Fiacho, Durak, and Scorpia can lay down some serious hurt. Except Mentalla, Eurostar's ranged strikers aren't overwhelming. If your team has a strong ranged game, I'd say you're in pretty good shape.

 

6) Be efficient. Eurostar is a bunch of deadly killers. Use force sufficient to take them out of the fight. You want KOs as quickly as possible....because you can guaran-DAMN-tee they'll use hostages to try an weasel their way out of the fight the moment it turns against them. And when they say they'll kill the normal if you don't let them go, they MEAN it. You want a quick fight. A drawn out affair favors Eurostar.

 

7) Don't fight strength for strength. Each of Eurostar's members is pretty good at what they do. Durak, Fiacho, and Mentalla are near the top of the heap in their respective archetypes. Don't match up your Bricks, Martial Artists, and Mentalists against them....as they'll probably lose. You want to mix it up and throw them off balance. The Mentalist EGO zapping Fiacho for example is much better than your Martial Artist ineffectually trading feints and dodges with him for example.

 

5) Think offensively. I mentioned this above, but it bears repeating. Eurostar is full of offense. That said, they're actually not that great on defense. Their defenses are middle of the road, their STUN totals are low, and they're not loaded with exotic defenses(such as Power Defense). Your team needs to dictate the pace. Act...don't react. Letting Eurostar control the fight will result in dead heroes very....VERY...quickly.

 

Rob