Full Desolidification

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by ghost-angel

p.78:

"He must at least recognize the target as a being with a mind of some sort which is susceptible to mental attacks before he cann attack it with Mental Powers."

 

That line alone led us to the conclusion that if you cannot percieve the target's mind you cannot target the mind, even if you can percieve the the character with another sense.

That particular line refers to the need to establish LOS to attack a target. Further down, it actually give rules for attacking targets you can't even see. There is also no mention of needing a Detect Minds sense or automatically receiving one by purchasing a Mental Power. If you see a guy standing there, you can reasonable assume he has a mind to attack, the only way to be sure is to try (unless you do have a Detect Minds, which can be fooled by Invisibility).

 

Other than that, is spending 20 points (Invisibility to Mental Sense Group/Detect Minds, 0 END, Persistant) a reasonable amount to spend to become completely immune to all Mental Powers? (Well, not all, some shmuck could still buy his Ego Attack AE). I don't think so.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by AlHazred

In many cases, actually, it is disadvantageous. That's because having an Animal Mind or a Machine Mind goes beyond just being a different "class." An Animal Mind can't reason with the same logic humans do, frequently can't create intricate tools (beyond the lever), or plan effectively for the future. Or practice self-restraint as easily. A Machine Mind must be programmed specifically for any particular task.

 

Now, all that being said, saying, "My character has a Machine Mind" has other consequences. If there are mentalist PCs, they won't be able to Mind Link with your PC. You'd likely have a hefty penalty with impromptu social interactions. You might find it difficult to adjust to unexpected occurances. In fact, you might take a lot more time than Humans when it comes to changing your mind; the GM might rule that you should come up with some very generic Decision Trees to determine your likely action in any particular circumstance.

 

An Animal Mind would have other problems. He could react quickly to changing circumstances, but would probably react only with the "Fight or Flight" reflex. ("I'll think about it later, maybe. Right now, I'll [RUN/ATTACK]!") He'd definitely have penalties in many social situations where precise responses are dictated, i.e. both High Society and Streetwise will take hits.

 

Both of these characters will have different sets of Everyman Abilities. It's reasonable to give the Machine Mind no Everyman Skills at all; only if he's specifically programmed with an ability does he have it. For Animal Mind Everyman Skills, see the HERO System Bestiary.

 

If it were up to me, I'd use the Absolute Effect Rule from Fantasy Hero, page 250. If Steve doesn't mind, I'd even give you specifics on how that fine tome recommends to do it.

 

Incidentally, Steve, different Classes of Minds and their effects on Character Construction would make for a dandy Digital Hero column, don't you think?

 

Not necessarily fair....

 

One of my PC's, Robot is the machine class of minds. He _is_ an AI... however, his thought patterns are an exact copy of his creator's; he's one step beyond a cyborg.

 

He _definately_ should be affected by cyberkinesis; he has an electronic brain. OTOH, he has the mind of a human being.

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Good points, but almost entirely not applicable. In fact, those what you list are actual Disads listed in the Bestiary.

 

Of course. I like to go right to the source.

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

There are loads of characters with inhuman minds that can think, react and make decisions just as good as, or even better than humans. The primary difference is that a mental ability that only affects humans wouldn't affect them. If most of the characters encountered in a game will be human, and there are enough occurances of mental abilities in the game, the ability to not be affected by them would give a character a significent advantage. If ther are enough mental abilities running about that will affect the character just as often, then it's just an aspect of his character that makes him different.

 

In which case, I would use the Absolute Effect Rule. My post was meant to bring up the idea that just declaring, "My character has an X Class mind" should not be enough. It cheapens the definitions. There ought to be real roleplaying challenges involved, otherwise it suffers the same devaluation as the classic fantasy "races": dwarves, elves, and whatnot are just humans with minor physical differences; their personalities are readily recognizable and easily established. Having an Animal or Machine Class of mind ought to lead to real differences in how the character is played.

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Of course, isn't just that cut and dry in my games. I use a house rule that negates the "unaffectable" barrier between classes of minds. Instead it becomes more difficult, so having an inhuman mind is like buying a limited form of Mental Defense.

 

I do the same with Animal Class minds in my Hârn Hero game, adding +10 to the Effect Level needed and adding +3 to the ECV of the target. Machine Minds and Alien Minds are beyond reach, however. If you're willing to do some handwaving, start a new class of minds, call it Unreachable. I was just trying to find a way using existing rules.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by AlHazred

(snip) My post was meant to bring up the idea that just declaring, "My character has an X Class mind" should not be enough. It cheapens the definitions. There ought to be real roleplaying challenges involved, otherwise it suffers the same devaluation as the classic fantasy "races": dwarves, elves, and whatnot are just humans with minor physical differences; their personalities are readily recognizable and easily established. Having an Animal or Machine Class of mind ought to lead to real differences in how the character is played.

(snip)

 

Personally, this is why I don't go by 5th's mental classes. I like the discussion of such in 5th and it provides good food for thought, but I prefer to simply understand how a character's mental abilities work and map accordingly. Therefore some minds work and some don't.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by AlHazred

Of course. I like to go right to the source.

 

 

 

In which case, I would use the Absolute Effect Rule. My post was meant to bring up the idea that just declaring, "My character has an X Class mind" should not be enough. It cheapens the definitions. There ought to be real roleplaying challenges involved, otherwise it suffers the same devaluation as the classic fantasy "races": dwarves, elves, and whatnot are just humans with minor physical differences; their personalities are readily recognizable and easily established. Having an Animal or Machine Class of mind ought to lead to real differences in how the character is played.

That wouldn't work in a campaign where animals or machines do have human-like reasoning and thought. In such a campaign, having an animal or machine class of mind would carry any other "baggage" besides only being affected by Mental Powers that affect their class of mind.

 

BTW: What is the "Absolute Effect Rule?"

 

 

 

I do the same with Animal Class minds in my Hârn Hero game, adding +10 to the Effect Level needed and adding +3 to the ECV of the target. Machine Minds and Alien Minds are beyond reach, however. If you're willing to do some handwaving, start a new class of minds, call it Unreachable. I was just trying to find a way using existing rules. [/b]

Using different classes of minds to represent "invulnerability" would be one way to do. Using lots of Mental Defense would be another. You can even by 75% Damage Reduction vs Mental for only 40 points (60 if it needs to be resistant). DECV Combat Skills levels would work, but then AE Mental Powers would still hit him and have full effect.

Or, of course you can use Desol, which I don't like using for invulnerability (too cheap and clunky).

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

BTW: What is the "Absolute Effect Rule?"

 

The Absolute Effect Rule is a method to represent effective absolute effects. It's essentially a sanctioned handwaving method.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by AlHazred

The Absolute Effect Rule is a method to represent effective absolute effects. It's essentially a sanctioned handwaving method.

 

I've never heard of it.

 

Is that kinda like a character buying 75% DR and lots of Armor only versus a single SFX and calling it invulnerability, and having the GM just say anything of that SFX doesn't damage the character, regardless of the dice or potential damage?

[AlHazred]

That's what it is. Steve just came out (in Fantasy Hero) with some guidelines, so that we know what Absolute Effects in Hero would look like. The new FH Talent Fearless uses this rule.

 

Having thought about it, I think the idea of the new Class of Minds would be the "best fit". That way, if you decide later to do something different, you haven't power-constructed yourself into a corner.

[zornwil]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

The Absolute Effect Rule is a method to represent effective absolute effects. It's essentially a sanctioned handwaving method.

 

There's some motivation to go back and check my Fantasy HERO, which I still haven't read. Thanks much!

[JayH]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

How about the concept of mind, body and spirit used to define Transforms? Perhaps, if you need one Transform to effect each of these, a GM could adopt a houserule that each could also have it's own Desolid. This may be crazy, I don't even know if a Desolid mind is the way to go. But if that's a good way to look at it, then it supports the 40pt team.

 

One thing about using the Desolid though, the character still has to "...define the special effects of a reasonably common group of attacks which will affect him while he's Desolidified." (5E 98) So there still has to be some defined subset/special effect of Mental Powers that will affect him.

 

For the price, I agree that the same number of points in Mental Defense (or raw EGO) would create a mind that is very hard to crack.

[zornwil]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

How about the concept of mind, body and spirit used to define Transforms? Perhaps, if you need one Transform to effect each of these, a GM could adopt a houserule that each could also have it's own Desolid. This may be crazy, I don't even know if a Desolid mind is the way to go. But if that's a good way to look at it, then it supports the 40pt team.

 

One thing about using the Desolid though, the character still has to "...define the special effects of a reasonably common group of attacks which will affect him while he's Desolidified." (5E 98) So there still has to be some defined subset/special effect of Mental Powers that will affect him.

 

For the price, I agree that the same number of points in Mental Defense (or raw EGO) would create a mind that is very hard to crack.

 

Good notion, re using body/mind/spirit for Desol. Consistent and useful, and while I wouldn't use it myself only because I'd rather continue to use case-by-case in my game this is useful as the "standard" rule on the subject.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

That particular line refers to the need to establish LOS to attack a target. Further down' date=' it actually give rules for attacking targets you can't even see. There is also no mention of needing a Detect Minds sense or automatically receiving one by purchasing a Mental Power. If you see a guy standing there, you can reasonable assume he has a mind to attack, the only way to be sure is to try (unless you [i']do[/i] have a Detect Minds, which can be fooled by Invisibility).

 

Other than that, is spending 20 points (Invisibility to Mental Sense Group/Detect Minds, 0 END, Persistant) a reasonable amount to spend to become completely immune to all Mental Powers? (Well, not all, some shmuck could still buy his Ego Attack AE). I don't think so.

 

Why not? Desol is a 40pt power that makes you immune to almost all physical/energy attacks .. seems fair to me that that kind of mental invulnerability would be worth around 20pts.

 

Here's how I built it:

 

Invisibilty: Mental Group, No Fringe, Reduce END: 0, Persistent, Inherent, Always On. AP:45 RP:30

 

Costs 30 pts to be effectively "Desol to mental powers" .. remove the No Fringe and the mentalist should get a Perception Roll to target the mind with LOS established.

 

The rules on p78 seem to assume the target has a percievable mind. Towards the middle it touches on the idea of a "fuzzy" connection due to recognizability (I'm assuming of the target's mind as well as the target here).

 

I file this under How can you target a mind with a mental power if the mind cannot be effectively perceived?

 

Of course, in a campaign the player better have a damn good reason to take this power. In my characters case they're a one trick pony .. I have invisibility - that's it.

[AlHazred]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

There's some motivation to go back and check my Fantasy HERO' date=' which I still haven't read. Thanks much![/quote']

De nada.

 

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This pointless post brought to you by the good folks at "Hey, let's increase our post counters!"

[Dust Raven]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

Why not? Desol is a 40pt power that makes you immune to almost all physical/energy attacks .. seems fair to me that that kind of mental invulnerability would be worth around 20pts.

 

Here's how I built it:

 

Invisibilty: Mental Group, No Fringe, Reduce END: 0, Persistent, Inherent, Always On. AP:45 RP:30

 

Costs 30 pts to be effectively "Desol to mental powers" .. remove the No Fringe and the mentalist should get a Perception Roll to target the mind with LOS established.

 

The rules on p78 seem to assume the target has a percievable mind. Towards the middle it touches on the idea of a "fuzzy" connection due to recognizability (I'm assuming of the target's mind as well as the target here).

 

I file this under How can you target a mind with a mental power if the mind cannot be effectively perceived?

 

Of course, in a campaign the player better have a damn good reason to take this power. In my characters case they're a one trick pony .. I have invisibility - that's it.

That still wouldn't work though. If if the GM ruled that an Invisible Mind couldn't be targeted mentally, it could still be affected by Mental Powers. A Mental Damage Shield, An AE Ego Attack, and many more things would still affect him. Hardly "desol to mental powers." Better off buying 30 Points of Mental Defense.

[TrickstaPriest]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

I think what attracted me to Desolid was that it affects all sorts of powers in the SFX, not just the ones that would use that particular defense. Of course, having an attack that doesn't use that defense but does use that SFX would be unusual, but since the Desolid is all based on SFX anyway I could just go "okay, although it's a mental power it sounds like it'd affect him." Of course, I would generally treat that as the SFX of the character design if Inorganic lifeforms like Dee were at all common. Still, I'm considering a different approach now, thanks to people's advice. Now, if I can just stop designing these downright BIZARRE powers for a minute or two... Nah, now that I have a power design for Gracie, I don't think that'll be happening anytime soon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

That still wouldn't work though. If if the GM ruled that an Invisible Mind couldn't be targeted mentally' date=' it could still be affected by Mental Powers. A Mental Damage Shield, An AE Ego Attack, and many more things would still affect him. Hardly "desol to mental powers." Better off buying 30 Points of Mental Defense.[/quote']

 

True, it's not Desol To Mental Powers by any means... and it provides no immunity to the powers themselves, just the ability to not be directly targeted by them. Which was the intention of that power. By not being a target you are indirectly immune to offensive attacks (the "best defense is to not be at target" concept). Rather than buying higher and higher mental defenses. It also has the benefit that you can't locate the character with Mind Scan making them an excellent infiltrator/assassin type. So yes, they are fully susceptible to any mental power that manages to hit them, it's the hitting that's the hard part.

 

It's not Immunity in the classic sense of the idea. So probably not very helpful to the design idea behind this thread.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

Exactly.

 

I still dissagree that it prevents targeting. A target invisible to sight can still be hit by a character able to see, or who can target him with another sense. Attacks aren't senses and aren't bound by them.

 

But, if it works for you...