Full Desolidification

[TrickstaPriest]

You probably get this question a lot, but I wanted to ask you since I would think you'd have a better idea on how much this potentially unbalancing Advantage is. How much should an Advantage or Adder cost to Desolidification to make it able to affect even ECV powers and gases (not senses, "Immunity" to senses would be Invisibility).

 

I'm wondering because I have an NPC here that doesn't have a mind, so he'd be kinda "unhurtable" to pretty much any ECV attack. Since I'm using Desolid anyway to represent his immunity to most diseases (he's an inorganic life form), I think I could just add the Advantage and broaden the Disadvantage slightly. (Although I could use Life Support, he'd still take damage due to "shock", which isn't what I want for this Invulnerability.) The handy thing about Desolid is that it affects any power, not just damage, which makes it more of an SFX-style defense.

 

He'd still be vulnerable to "Affects Incorporeal", but I was going to define that for affecting this type of power (that it only could be hurt by specialized versions of Affects Incorporeal to the desolid's SFX).

[Steve Long]

Since this isn't really a rules question but a topic for discussion, I've moved it to the "Discussion" board. What does Herodom Assembled think?

[Snarf]

I haven't done much with mental powers yet, but a good rule of thumb for figuring out the value would be to build something that's as close as you can get with the existing rules and check the cost. You're looking for immunity to mental attacks, so a comparable ability would be something like 30 points of mental defense, which would cost 30 points.

 

Desolidification is 40 points, if I remember correctly, so if you're buying my reasoning this should approximately double the cost.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Full Desolidification

 

Originally posted by TrickstaPriest

I'm wondering because I have an NPC here that doesn't have a mind, so he'd be kinda "unhurtable" to pretty much any ECV attack.

 

So how does the NPC reason then? Should you be looking at the automaton rules where the NPC would not have INT or EGO and thus simply not show up on a mentalists radar?? (I haven't played HERO since 5th edition - it does still have automaton rules doesn't it??)

 

It might be simpler than looking at desolid to such things.

 

If the NOC does reason and does think then it would have INT and EGO and you could probably assign a difficulty penalty to mentalists chances - give him defensive levels in ECV and/or Ego defence to make things that much more difficult due to the alien nature of the mind in question.

[TheEmerged]

Under 4th Edition there was a +20 Adder to Desolid to make you invulnerable to ECV Attacks. I think part of the reason it was eliminated is that it's awfully powerful and something the PC's *will* ask for if you allow it.

 

As such, if I were going to put it into 5th Edition I'd start by increasing the cost to +40. I might go higher.

 

If you're wanting to portray an inorganic life form, you might be able to do this much more simply however -- declare it to be the Machine or Alien class of minds. Now most ECV powers a PC will have in most campaigns won't affect it.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

If you're wanting to portray an inorganic life form, you might be able to do this much more simply however -- declare it to be the Machine or Alien class of minds. Now most ECV powers a PC will have in most campaigns won't affect it.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. Being a different class of minds than normal for the campaign is an advantage, however, and in my game I have character purchase a Talent to represent that advantage. Something between 10-20 points would be fine, depending upon on how often Mental Powers that affect the character show up.

 

As for Desol vs disease. What is damage do to "shock"? I've been playing HERO a long time and I've never heard of this. Usually, diseases/poisons and such are either bought NND/AVLD or with a Limitation: Not Versus Appropriate Life Support. All you should need is LS. Althought complete immunity is expensive, it's cheaper than Desol and easier to figure out.

[TrickstaPriest]

He can reason per se, but more or less like an AI. However, since it is a character itself that I am creating and trying to represent, I'm leery about using Computer or Automation rules to reflect this. Simply buying mental defenses wouldn't work too well, because it's not a matter of how strong the mental powers are, but whether they can hurt him at all. It's really the only time I allow "absolutes" in a game, and I find Desolid works well to represent absolute immunities (since the things that you can choose that can affect the character are normally based on SFX). For the disease immunity, it could be "Desolid, Only vs. Diseases -1, Can be affected by diseases that affect inorganic lifeforms."

 

Under normal circumstances, I probably would just say that it's a certain class of minds. But if the inorganic lifeform is maybe... one of three that may be in the entire setting, I can see where that might require an entire power to relate. That is, if I simply attribute it to SFX, it would seem overly powerful. I usually just leave it to SFX when the circumstances that it takes place in aren't common. So, for an average human, electricity might cause them to go into spasms and other disorienting jerking motions for a while (Dex drain + Dmg). However, electricity in water might also have an area of effect. This I'd simply represent with SFX, maybe keeping the attack's AP the same (or lower) and just adjusting it to have Area in that circumstance.

 

The problem is that, for the average psychic in the setting, they wouldn't be able to affect him mentally. Thus, the "average" case that ECV comes up means that he is immune to it. Looking at it from the psychic's point of view, he is restricted to "Human Minds." However, the circumstances are so rare that it is pretty much considered impossible for him to run into an AI, so it really only covers "Human vs. Animal". Thus, the "immunity" as it were seems to be more on his side than the psychic's failings (although, I know that in reality that isn't the case, I'm just trying to decide where the cost of this relationship should go). Instead of adjusting the "scope" of minds available in the setting for every psychic to affect, I'm more interested in buying this immunity for the two or three exceptions.

 

>>As for Desol vs disease. What is damage do to "shock"? I've been playing HERO a long time and I've never heard of this. Usually, diseases/poisons and such are either bought NND/AVLD or with a Limitation: Not Versus Appropriate Life Support. All you should need is LS. Althought complete immunity is expensive, it's cheaper than Desol and easier to figure out.

 

Err, maybe I'm remembering an older version of HERO... I remember reading that simply having Life Support immunities made you resistant to the "average" problem, but powers of that nature would still do damage to the character. But yes, that approach does make sense. That case would work better than giving him Desolid vs. Disease, since anyone in a quarantine suit would have that immunity. It still wouldn't fit for the mental attack immunity, though, since it is too rare of an occurance to warrant an adjustment to the overall workings.

 

Hm.... if a recommended adder is +40... perhaps I could treat it as a seperate Desolid vs. ECV attacks (as opposed to OCV). The Desolid vs. ECV would be expensive (since it wouldn't likely get any Limitations on what it could affect), but it fits for what I want to do. That Desolid, and a bit of Life Support, then. Thanks everyone!

[Dust Raven]

There are absolutely no cyberkinetics in you campaign? None at all? Nobody who doesn't need a remote controll for the TV or who can drive a car from across the street? No one can surf cyberspace without a computer?

 

Cyberkinetics are their own type of psychic. They are a staple of any genre involving lots of technology alongside psionics or superpowers. In a campaign like you describe, a cyberkinetic wouldn't expect to run into AI minds every day, if ever, but would recognize the potential use of their powers against such a thing.

 

Disease: Yes, in 5th, it's made pretty clear, if not in FREd, but in suppliments (particularly Besteary) that poisons and disease are built using NND, with the defense being Life Support. Granted, anyone could buy an RKA, call it "Flesh Rot" and define it as a form of disease. But such a construct had better have a Limitation to only affect targets with flesh, or else walls, mailboxes and toasters are just as vulnerable to it as a robot. And I've never seen a writeup for a mailbox or a toaster with Desol vs Disease or even Life Support.

[TrickstaPriest]

Hmm... very true. The range of powers in the setting is fairly diverse, it's mainly that there are very few non-humans, at least things that range out of the animal kingdom. I suppose a better definition of it would be Desolid vs. ECV, Only vs. Normal Mental Attacks. Hmm... I guess the main reason for the Desolid is, like I said, if it's an SFX that is extremely rarely occuring, I'd generally have it bought as a power. You do provide a good argument for simply leaving it as a "class of minds" though. Hmm... definitely falls into a debatable thing.

[devlin1]

IMO, you should buy Invisibility to Mental Group, Inherent. He's a blank to mentalists-- Mind Scans don't detect him, Telepathy can't target him, etc. And, if that's not enough, a decent amount of Mental Defense, in case they do manage to target him.

[devlin1]

This space intentionally left blank.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by devlin1

IMO, you should buy Invisibility to Mental Group, Inherent. He's a blank to mentalists-- Mind Scans don't detect him, Telepathy can't target him, etc. And, if that's not enough, a decent amount of Mental Defense, in case they do manage to target him.

 

Now there's a clever thought. Would still be targeted with Mental Powers other than Mind Scan though, and affected by everything except all but the first level of Telepathy (which is only to send thoughts, not read them in this case).

 

Of course, now that I think about it, I'll bet whatever Power you come up with to simulate an immunity to Mental Powers could be quickly duplicated by an equal number of points in Mental Defense. Well, unless you're running a really high powered game.

[ghost-angel]

I've got a character with Invisible to Mental Group, Inherent.. works great since the Mentalists can't "see" my mind to target it. Works badly against the few psycho mentalists that have bought Ego Attack, Area Of Effect.

 

We did rule that an Invisible mind cannot be detected with Mind Scan since there is no mind to scan, per se, and any number of effects. Once a connection is established via Telepathy or Mind Link the connection works .. it's getting the connection open that proves difficult.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by ghost-angel

I've got a character with Invisible to Mental Group, Inherent.. works great since the Mentalists can't "see" my mind to target it. Works badly against the few psycho mentalists that have bought Ego Attack, Area Of Effect.

 

Double checking the rules, you can still be targeted with LOS Mental Attacks even though you are Invisible to the mental sense group. As long as the attacker can sense you with a targeting sense, he can hit you with any Power you're in range of, including Mental Powers. The only affect Invisible to Mental Group would do is stop Mind Scan from finding you, and stop Telepathy from picking up any thoughts. None of the other Mental Powers require/use senses in their operation.

 

Another way of looking at it is this: You can still shoot a guy Invisible to Sight group if you can target him with another sense, even if you shoot him with a laser or other light based weapon, and he'll take damage (potentialy).

[JmOz]

Invisibility to all senses (Only to prevent targeting of mental powers, -1)

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by JmOz

Invisibility to all senses (Only to prevent targeting of mental powers, -1)

 

That'll do it!

 

Well, unless the Mentallist buys a targeting sense with a unique sense group. But how likely is that?

[tesuji]

I suggest a different way of figuring it...

 

Start with "how frequent will there be mental attacks and how serious are they?"

 

if mental attacks are relatively infrequent, so that most of the time the combats will play out without them being a significant role, then immunity to them is basically not worth much.

 

If mentalist are common and as frequent as enemies who attack him using attacks that go against PD or ED, then its worth a lot more.

 

if the campaign theme is focused around mentalists, then its worth a whole lot more.

 

So if you have an idea as to the nature of your campaign and preset notions as to how freequent;y the mentalist will appear and how serious they will be, you might want to look at assigning the cost based on that.

 

Now, if instead you dont have such expectations and figure you will throw in mentalists and mental attacks when you feel like it, then just assign a number, say 42, and then throw enough mental stuff at them to make him feel good about having the defense but tone it back down when he seems to be getting by too easily. (After a year of player keeping the players seeing that balance, they will think your "42" was dead spot ond and consider you brilliant.)

[GamePhil]

The simplest method is to buy a large Mental Defense and Self Contained Breathing Life Support, both Linked to Desolidification.

[TrickstaPriest]

Hmm... interesting. I realise that a large amount of Mental Defense would work, i was just considering whether it'd be appropriate for someone who may be able to feasibly resist NND Ego Attacks as well as normal ones. Then again, it might be appropriate... I'll have to look at some of the different mentalists and "odd mentalists" and come up with a thought on that.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by TrickstaPriest

feasibly resist NND Ego Attacks

 

Whatever would you have an NND Ego Attack for? Isn't NND a Limitation on an attack that's already AVLD? If it isn't it should be.

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

This is exactly what I was thinking. Being a different class of minds than normal for the campaign is an advantage, however, and in my game I have character purchase a Talent to represent that advantage. Something between 10-20 points would be fine, depending upon on how often Mental Powers that affect the character show up.

 

In many cases, actually, it is disadvantageous. That's because having an Animal Mind or a Machine Mind goes beyond just being a different "class." An Animal Mind can't reason with the same logic humans do, frequently can't create intricate tools (beyond the lever), or plan effectively for the future. Or practice self-restraint as easily. A Machine Mind must be programmed specifically for any particular task.

 

Now, all that being said, saying, "My character has a Machine Mind" has other consequences. If there are mentalist PCs, they won't be able to Mind Link with your PC. You'd likely have a hefty penalty with impromptu social interactions. You might find it difficult to adjust to unexpected occurances. In fact, you might take a lot more time than Humans when it comes to changing your mind; the GM might rule that you should come up with some very generic Decision Trees to determine your likely action in any particular circumstance.

 

An Animal Mind would have other problems. He could react quickly to changing circumstances, but would probably react only with the "Fight or Flight" reflex. ("I'll think about it later, maybe. Right now, I'll [RUN/ATTACK]!") He'd definitely have penalties in many social situations where precise responses are dictated, i.e. both High Society and Streetwise will take hits.

 

Both of these characters will have different sets of Everyman Abilities. It's reasonable to give the Machine Mind no Everyman Skills at all; only if he's specifically programmed with an ability does he have it. For Animal Mind Everyman Skills, see the HERO System Bestiary.

 

If it were up to me, I'd use the Absolute Effect Rule from Fantasy Hero, page 250. If Steve doesn't mind, I'd even give you specifics on how that fine tome recommends to do it.

 

Incidentally, Steve, different Classes of Minds and their effects on Character Construction would make for a dandy Digital Hero column, don't you think?

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by TrickstaPriest

Hmm... interesting. I realise that a large amount of Mental Defense would work, i was just considering whether it'd be appropriate for someone who may be able to feasibly resist NND Ego Attacks as well as normal ones.

 

For NND's, I would tend to just declare that this Power set counts as one of the defenses, unless the special effect of the NND appropriately affected the character.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

Under 4th Edition there was a +20 Adder to Desolid to make you invulnerable to ECV Attacks. I think part of the reason it was eliminated is that it's awfully powerful and something the PC's *will* ask for if you allow it.

 

As such, if I were going to put it into 5th Edition I'd start by increasing the cost to +40. I might go higher.

 

If you're wanting to portray an inorganic life form, you might be able to do this much more simply however -- declare it to be the Machine or Alien class of minds. Now most ECV powers a PC will have in most campaigns won't affect it.

 

I don't have much trouble with that adder, personally, as supernatural and other SFX will still matter.

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Double checking the rules, you can still be targeted with LOS Mental Attacks even though you are Invisible to the mental sense group. As long as the attacker can sense you with a targeting sense, he can hit you with any Power you're in range of, including Mental Powers. The only affect Invisible to Mental Group would do is stop Mind Scan from finding you, and stop Telepathy from picking up any thoughts. None of the other Mental Powers require/use senses in their operation.

 

Another way of looking at it is this: You can still shoot a guy Invisible to Sight group if you can target him with another sense, even if you shoot him with a laser or other light based weapon, and he'll take damage (potentialy).

 

p.78:

"He must at least recognize the target as a being with a mind of some sort which is susceptible to mental attacks before he cann attack it with Mental Powers."

 

That line alone led us to the conclusion that if you cannot percieve the target's mind you cannot target the mind, even if you can percieve the the character with another sense.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by AlHazred

In many cases, actually, it is disadvantageous. That's because having an Animal Mind or a Machine Mind goes beyond just being a different "class." An Animal Mind can't reason with the same logic humans do, frequently can't create intricate tools (beyond the lever), or plan effectively for the future. Or practice self-restraint as easily. A Machine Mind must be programmed specifically for any particular task.

 

Now, all that being said, saying, "My character has a Machine Mind" has other consequences. If there are mentalist PCs, they won't be able to Mind Link with your PC. You'd likely have a hefty penalty with impromptu social interactions. You might find it difficult to adjust to unexpected occurances. In fact, you might take a lot more time than Humans when it comes to changing your mind; the GM might rule that you should come up with some very generic Decision Trees to determine your likely action in any particular circumstance.

 

An Animal Mind would have other problems. He could react quickly to changing circumstances, but would probably react only with the "Fight or Flight" reflex. ("I'll think about it later, maybe. Right now, I'll [RUN/ATTACK]!") He'd definitely have penalties in many social situations where precise responses are dictated, i.e. both High Society and Streetwise will take hits.

 

Both of these characters will have different sets of Everyman Abilities. It's reasonable to give the Machine Mind no Everyman Skills at all; only if he's specifically programmed with an ability does he have it. For Animal Mind Everyman Skills, see the HERO System Bestiary.

 

If it were up to me, I'd use the Absolute Effect Rule from Fantasy Hero, page 250. If Steve doesn't mind, I'd even give you specifics on how that fine tome recommends to do it.

 

Incidentally, Steve, different Classes of Minds and their effects on Character Construction would make for a dandy Digital Hero column, don't you think?

 

Good points, but almost entirely not applicable. In fact, those what you list are actual Disads listed in the Bestiary.

 

There are loads of characters with inhuman minds that can think, react and make decisions just as good as, or even better than humans. The primary difference is that a mental ability that only affects humans wouldn't affect them. If most of the characters encountered in a game will be human, and there are enough occurances of mental abilities in the game, the ability to not be affected by them would give a character a significent advantage. If ther are enough mental abilities running about that will affect the character just as often, then it's just an aspect of his character that makes him different.

 

Of course, isn't just that cut and dry in my games. I use a house rule that negates the "unaffectable" barrier between classes of minds. Instead it becomes more difficult, so having an inhuman mind is like buying a limited form of Mental Defense.