Speed in FH

[SirWilliam]

I have been toying with an idea regarding Speed (SPD) and FH combat.

 

If you have a speed 2 or 3 character they rarely put a dent in their Endurance even over several turns of combat and this really minimizes the fatigue effect that I like so much about Hero system.

 

My thought to "fix" this would be to make every speed act twice as frequently. Since it's FH I can't see any instances where I'd use anything with a speed 7+ I would just make speed 2 use the Speed 4 phases, speed 3 would use the speed 6 phases, and so on. This would double the number of phases they would act between post-12 recoveries and make fatigue a real factor rather than something that comes up after 6 turns of fighting.

 

To give you some perspective, most of my characters are speed 3 with around 15 Str (2 end) and a recovery in the 4-6 range, so they effectively don't take an END hit during a normal turn of combat.

[DocMan]

Re: Speed in FH

 

You may feel free to differ, but I personally wouldn't muck with the Speed chart.

 

In this situation, I'd be more inclined to encourage characters to buy a higher speed or to sell back CON and END and REC.

 

Alternatively, instead of allowing characters to go twice as often, I'd require them to spend twice the END for all of their actions. Either as a house rule, or by allowing them to purches STR and abilities with the x2 END limitation. Abilities already bought with xX END would be incremented by one.

 

Doc

[Nuke]

Re: Speed in FH

 

To give you some perspective' date=' most of my characters are speed 3 with around 15 Str (2 end) and a recovery in the 4-6 range, so they effectively don't take an END hit during a normal turn of combat.[/quote']

 

Similar to the other post, I'd suggest adjusting the END on stuff. In every non-supers campaign I've ever played, END was 1/5 AP instead of 1/10. So 15 STR would use 3 END per swing (50% increase).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed in FH

 

To give you some perspective' date=' most of my characters are speed 3 with around 15 Str (2 end) and a recovery in the 4-6 range, so they effectively don't take an END hit during a normal turn of combat.[/quote']

 

I see a mix of SPD 3 and 4, but a bit higher REC on occasion. Don't you ever move in combat (it does cost 1 END minimum to move, I believe)? That brings you to 9 END per turn.

 

I generally don't see warriors run out of steam very quicly. It's mages who have to spend 1 END for a force field and 4 for an attack, plus 1 to move, and maybe a bit more for other spells, that really tend to exhaust fast. Double his phases and the poor guy can't last a turn.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed in FH

 

Similar to the other post' date=' I'd suggest adjusting the END on stuff. In every non-supers campaign I've ever played, END was 1/5 AP instead of 1/10. So 15 STR would use 3 END per swing (50% increase).[/quote']

 

Was it 4e or 3e that set STR at 1 END/5 points and all other abilities at 1 END per 10 points?

 

Hmmm...just make STR cost 2 points each in FH and its END use is 1 END / 5 STR. Oh wait, I don't favour monkeying with the cost of STR.

[JakSpade]

Re: Speed in FH

 

Was it 4e or 3e that set STR at 1 END/5 points and all other abilities at 1 END per 10 points?

 

Hmmm...just make STR cost 2 points each in FH and its END use is 1 END / 5 STR. Oh wait, I don't favour monkeying with the cost of STR.

 

I wouldn't monkey with the speed chart or the stats...

 

But being one who has spent some time dressed in armor and fought (in the SCA - http://www.sca.org), I can tell you that armor and encumberance should cost the combatant greatly, unless they are used to it (buy an advantage or something).

 

Check their encumberance and you might even assign extra Endurance cost for fighting in armor, or while encumbered.

 

Jak

[SirWilliam]

Re: Speed in FH

 

I see a mix of SPD 3 and 4, but a bit higher REC on occasion. Don't you ever move in combat (it does cost 1 END minimum to move, I believe)? That brings you to 9 END per turn.

 

I generally don't see warriors run out of steam very quicly. It's mages who have to spend 1 END for a force field and 4 for an attack, plus 1 to move, and maybe a bit more for other spells, that really tend to exhaust fast. Double his phases and the poor guy can't last a turn.

 

I don't really want to bump up just Str for END use because that's going to unfairly penalize my melee oriented characters. Wizards cast their spells from an END reserve with a slow recovery so they're going to have the same number of phases casting regardless of whether they're going 3 times per turn or 6.

 

Besides the fact that I dislike exceptions (you pay 1 END per 10 Active on everything except strength).

 

Can anyone tell me a logical reason to not modify the phases? The only real effect this will have is that the max speed under this will be 6 instead of 12, and quite honestly I don't see anyone ever breaking that speed 6 level.

 

I like this solution because it doesn't involve any stat changes, it hits everyone equally, and it's easily reversible.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Speed in FH

 

I can give you a reason not to change anything: Characters with high SPDs have the ability to move quickly - that's it. That's what you pay character points for and that's exactly what you get. However - like the Cheetah - they run out of steam very quickly. In other words, just because someone can move faster than everyone else, doesn't mean he has more energy and endurance to maintain that level of quickness. If he wants that he has to buy more END and/or a higher REC. Like I said, you get exactly what you pay for - no more, no less.

 

You can look at it this way as well if you'd like: The additional use of END for characters with a high SPD serves as a check for them to keep them balanced with characters with lower SPD's - as additional SPD provides a tremendous benefit to a character.

[Markdoc]

Re: Speed in FH

 

I do charge 2 points per point of STR and then 1 END per 5 points of STR used, but other than that, no changes. And I often have players puffing and wheezing by the end of combat, or even taking recoveries. I think the reason is that I charge END for everything - running costs END, jumping costs END and wearing armour or toting a big packpack and bundle o' weapons costs END (at least for the STR to cart it about) I don't charge for END on STR twice: if you are using STR to hit someone, then you pay END for STR that phase (not twice, once for the attack and the mass). But that constant trickle of END adds up - especially as fights in my game often involve running and dodging, niot just stand-there-and-whack

 

cheers, Mark

[Photon1966]

Re: Speed in FH

 

Well I have found with my own FHLTE to be a real threat, even with one player having a 10 REC. He is 20 STR so Armour isn't too encumbering for him, but he uses full strength, i.e. 4 END an attack, often will push and moves. So your looking at 12/10 so 1 LTE to 2 LTE a round. The other main fighter has MA skills and goes for multiple attacks a round which also quickly builds up the LTE with only a 7 REC. He is even thinking of boosting his SPD to 4, which I haven't promoted as he'll definently exhaust himself fast that way. As far as mages go I don't allow END Reserve. They have to draw from thier own thus insuring LTE for them as well. I have used END Reserve only for Divine and with a slow return rate which I find limits them just fine. The only time I used a Reserve was with a limit of 1 END/ 3 Reserve END (-1/2) I got it from a magizine which had cyclops drawing from a battery but also wanted to simulate he got a bit tired when he used his EB. So I have to say maybe take into account all the options available to you before you muck around with something like SPD chart. Maybe your heroes are just exceptional or have unique blood of heroes which lets them keep going but I have found that with fair use of LTE, sometimes people need two days or more to recover. Perhaps trynig out a number of small battles. I know from a small tomb adventure which had a number of minor adventures , by the time the final adventure/battle came along the main fighter was tapping into his Stun to keep going., which was great for the feel of my game.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Speed in FH

 

There's nothing wrong with the system you've proposed, Sir William. It is functionally equivalent to simply saying that they only get post-12 recoveries every other turn instead of every turn. It affects everyone equally, PCs, NPCs, monsters. Everyone just gets tired faster. It's a quite simple change to give your campaign the feel you want. You want combat to be tiring; this is a fine way to go.

 

I've noticed many people get a little paranoid about any house rule modification, especially when they touch on "sacred cows" like the SPD chart. And yes, some modifications would definitely alter the balance of the game significantly, but the change you suggest does not.

 

BTW, it is standard practice in heroic-level games such as FH, to have STR cost 1 END/5 pts used, while other powers cost 1/10. I've found this works well to keep mages and fighters in line with each other. Fighters just use raw STR, while mages may have powers with high AP but low RP due to limitations, and limitations don't reduce the END cost.

[Intrope]

Re: Speed in FH

 

You could also change the cost of SPD for Heroic-level games to 5/pt rather than 10/pt. This would give you roughly the same effect (twice as many phases/turn), except that some people would likely buy odd SPD values (with SirWilliam's scheme, you only get even values).

 

I've considered doing this for all Heroic-level games, for basically the same reasons.

 

Bonus: all your players will think you're a swell guy (twice the SPD for free) when in reality you're draining their END away. Mwahahaha!

[tetsujin28]

Re: Speed in FH

 

I ditched both SPD and the chart long ago for non-superhero games.

[Solomon]

Re: Speed in FH

 

You may feel free to differ, but I personally wouldn't muck with the Speed chart.

 

In this situation, I'd be more inclined to encourage characters to buy a higher speed or to sell back CON and END and REC.

 

Alternatively, instead of allowing characters to go twice as often, I'd require them to spend twice the END for all of their actions. Either as a house rule, or by allowing them to purches STR and abilities with the x2 END limitation. Abilities already bought with xX END would be incremented by one.

 

Doc

 

I'm all with the Doc on this one. Plus, if you allow characters to act twice as often, you're subtracting granularity from the game and making SPD even more cost-efficient. Make them pay more END, or allow them to buy an higher SPD.

[tetsujin28]

Re: Speed in FH

 

I'm all with the Doc on this one. Plus' date=' if you allow characters to act twice as often, you're subtracting granularity from the game and making SPD even more cost-efficient. Make them pay more END, or allow them to buy an higher SPD.[/quote']Well, they are going to end up paying more END, due to the increase in SPD. But really? I don't think it matters much. Anything to get rid of that annoying crunch of SPDs 3 and 4 :