Multiform base form question

[FenrisUlf]

Sorry if this has been covered, but it is permissible to set up a multiform so that the alternate forms are of higher point value than the base, right? I'm just thinking of the classic werewolf or the Hulk, here.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Yes, as long as the base form has the points to pay for the multiform and the GM allows it the alternate forms may be higher point characters that the base form.

 

There's an example in the book in the sidebar next to multiform for changing into a 500pt T-Rex.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Permissable is a good word, since this requires GM permission.

 

And for the record, this GM (that is to say, me) requires the cost to change to 1 point per 1 point in form when the new forms' values exceed that of the base form. This keeps it consistent with Followers/Base/Vehicles and Duplication.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

I have to say most GMs (including mine) balk when they see the 5E Multiform rules.

 

I both agree and disagree with them on all points (good thing I count twice )

 

First, I don't like to limit the rules by simply outlawing them because of "potential" abuse problems. First thing I remind all players is "Just because it's book legal does not mean it can or should be allowed into a campaign." - You don't get characters with Eye Lasers in fantasy campaigns just because the book says you can have an energy blast.... With that idea in mind I alter the rules as little as possible and make sure that the players have a power that won't break the game - if they have a transform into a 500pt character that works in the game so be it, if it doesn't work back to the drawing board for them. I take it case by case instead of shotgun style.

 

Second, the new multiform rules don't follow the standard of 1for1 after the character point limit total is reached and it is potentially one of the most abusive powers available. With those two points in mind I can see why many GMs enact the 1for1 or enforce the 4E rules of "highest point form pays" for multiform. Which is good, if everyone agrees on it, or at least the majority.

 

Basically everything comes down to the GM and the Players and what they wish to allow into a game.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

I don't like to limit the rules by simply outlawing them because of "potential" abuse problems... With that idea in mind I alter the rules as little as possible and make sure that the players have a power that won't break the game - if they have a transform into a 500pt character that works in the game so be it' date=' if it doesn't work back to the drawing board for them. I take it case by case instead of shotgun style.[/quote']

 

Speaking for the only person I really can (myself), this wasn't a *potential* abuse. One of my players has this thing about multiform/duplication -- if there's a legitimate way for her to play such a character in the campaign/genre she will. So I inevitably find myself becoming very thoroughly acquainted with the way any system we play does this

 

To be honest, I understand why the decision to eliminate the 1-to-1 rule was made -- I just disagree that the reason was strong enough to justify that action. In my opinion it is more important that the rules be internally consistent than that one niggling case be handled perfectly. Keeping the 1-to-1 rule means the niggling case (an item/spell that grants a super-powered form in a low-point campaign) is only 90% well handled (it costs "too much").

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Speaking for the only person I really can (myself)' date=' this wasn't a *potential* abuse. One of my players has this thing about multiform/duplication -- if there's a legitimate way for her to play such a character in the campaign/genre she will. So I inevitably find myself becoming very thoroughly acquainted with the way any system we play does this [/quote']

 

Well, once you get into the actual abuse level you have only two real choices - tell the player no, in which case you can run into problems if another player uses the same rule in a different way and you allow it; "But you let Timmy play a shapeshifter!!" kind of thing. Or you alter the rules so the abuse factor is no longer available to anyone.

 

The second one is, to me, the harsher of the two. I personally prefer to deal with the first situation, because I believe in my ability to force players to grow up and accept the fact that not everyone is equal. But I'm a jerk sometimes

 

Most GMs will, sanely, simply do what you do and limit the rules. Nothing wrong with that at all if you really are curbing an abusive tendency instead of trying to prevent an abuse you can simply imagine.

[Bengal]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

I allow the rule whole cloth, as is. All it "gives" the player is a weaker form to change in to for free. Plenty of stuff is more munchkinny than that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

I allow the rule whole cloth' date=' as is. All it "gives" the player is a weaker form to change in to for free. Plenty of stuff is more munchkinny than that.[/quote']

 

While I don't change the rule, I would look twice (or more) at a character who can become more powerful than the campaign baseline (eg. a 350 point Super who spends points on a 1,000 point Second Form).

 

I also see the potential for abuse - for example, that same 350 point character spends "only" 100 points on a 350 point multiform with 64 total forms (6 doublings). In those 64 forms are forms that step on the toes of every other player in the campaign. eg. "I'll assume my Brick form. He's a lot like John's Brick, except I didn't need the skills and sensory powers, since I have them in another form, so he pumped those extra 50 points back into +10 STR, +5 PD and ED, and +10 DEX. Step aside, Skinny - I'll move the boulder blocking the entrance!"

 

I still see the need for the rulke as is. It's just a matter of enforcing its appropriate use and not allowing a character such as the above one.

[Solomon]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

I allowed such a construct in my current campaign. Our 350 points brick has a werewolf-like 400 points alternate form. The Multiform is severely limited though (No Conscious Control), and I woudn't have allowed it otherwise. It's still the single larger power in my group, in terms of Active Points. Other players in my group are limited to 65 AP powers.

[Col. Orange]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Is there any reason you shouldn't build Hulk/Werewolf as the pure combat main character (in which case you'll save shed loads on skills, perks and such) - then buy wimpy Banner/Villager as the cheap multiform?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Is there any reason you shouldn't build Hulk/Werewolf as the pure combat main character (in which case you'll save shed loads on skills' date=' perks and such) - then buy wimpy Banner/Villager as the cheap multiform?[/quote']

Because of the problems you run into vs. Suppress, Dispel, Drain, etc. You "turn off" someone's Multiform, and they become the monster? It doesn't usually work that way in fiction; plus the "true" character usually started as a human who got "cursed" with becoming a rampaging "thing". That would make the human the base form, conceptually.

 

Plus, do you remember having to build a "shrinking ray" that used a Suppress vs. Growth to shrink an elephant or an aircraft carrier? That's why Growth is no longer used to create things that are larger than human-sized normally...same thing here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Plus' date=' do you remember having to build a "shrinking ray" that used a Suppress vs. Growth to shrink an elephant or an aircraft carrier? That's why Growth is no longer used to create things that are larger than human-sized [i']normally[/i]...same thing here.

 

Nice...I hadn't thought about that change in this fashion before. But wouldn't 1 level of Shrinking cut the elephant down to half size anyway (cancelling 3 levels of Growth for size, but not for stats)?

[TheEmerged]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

If your campaign has "nova detects" -- which detect people with super powers, or people that lack the Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage, or the active use of a super power -- the ability to 'hide' this by 'going dormant' is actually pretty doggone useful. That's what I was referring to.

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Actually, i still advocate the old 4e limit: the most expensive form pays for the multiform and the lesser forms must not exceed the total cp of that form minus his MF rp cost.

 

To this i add: Choose true form. The true form is ASSUMED to be the biggest point character, the one who paid for the multiform by the cost. The true form is the one which the character will revert to when the MF for any reason is turned off. If the character concept would suggest one of the weaker forms as the true form, the character takes a limitation on his multiform to reflect the involuntary switch is to the weaker form. This lim would be -0 if the weaker form is within 2/3 of the top form, -1/4 if less than 2/3 but at least 1/3, and -1/2 if less than 1/3. This value may vary if counter mukltiform powers are exceptionally common.

 

So your werewolf built as say a 350 werewolf and a 150 numan would buy the multiform on the werewolf character at 30 pts (for the 150 human) but would apply a -1/4 for "true form is between 2/3 and 1/3 of the top form" giving it a cost of 24 cp. When the MF was dispelled or shut off by any means, the character would revert to the true form.

Because of the problems you run into vs. Suppress, Dispel, Drain, etc. You "turn off" someone's Multiform, and they become the monster? It doesn't usually work that way in fiction; plus the "true" character usually started as a human who got "cursed" with becoming a rampaging "thing". That would make the human the base form, conceptually.

 

Again, the problem comes from linking two disparate factors... the character who pays for the multiform and the true form. Severe the link between these and things make more sense.

 

Making the most powerful form pay for the multiform is a simple cost for effectiveness issue. its no more a matter of fx or concept than having Eb cost 4 cp per d6 is.

 

true form is more a matter of concept and character than of points. Its only impact on COSt is that, since that form can be one the character is involuntarily forced into, if the true for is the weaker form that represents a limitation.

 

severe the linkage between "true form" and "the form that pays for multiform", require the bigger form to buy the MF and keep the lesser forms limited to his cost minus the MF and the balance problems seem to go away fairly quickly.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Actually, i still advocate the old 4e limit: the most expensive form pays for the multiform and the lesser forms must not exceed the total cp of that form minus his MF rp cost.

 

To this i add: Choose true form. The true form is ASSUMED to be the biggest point character, the one who paid for the multiform by the cost. The true form is the one which the character will revert to when the MF for any reason is turned off. If the character concept would suggest one of the weaker forms as the true form, the character takes a limitation on his multiform to reflect the involuntary switch is to the weaker form. This lim would be -0 if the weaker form is within 2/3 of the top form, -1/4 if less than 2/3 but at least 1/3, and -1/2 if less than 1/3. This value may vary if counter mukltiform powers are exceptionally common.

Personally, I wouldn't mind this option at all...make choosing the base form a bit like choosing the FX for your Energy Blast; and if it is a weaker form, getting a small limitation on the Multiform cost.

 

You had some other good points, too.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Nice...I hadn't thought about that change in this fashion before. But wouldn't 1 level of Shrinking cut the elephant down to half size anyway (cancelling 3 levels of Growth for size' date=' but not for stats)?[/quote']

Sure it would...but why buy Shrinking, Usable Against Others, At Range, No Line of Sight Required, 0 END (so they stay shrunk when they're not in your line of sight anymore) when you can just buy Suppress vs. Growth, 0 END Persistant?

 

The Shrinking version is a LOT more expensive, and that makes it cost-prohibitive for most characters to purchase a meaningful amount. Sure, for NPCs you can just hand-wave it, but you can end up with some insane point totals that way to get a comic-book-esque "shrink ray".

 

I'm talking in 4th Ed terms, of course, because these day's you'd HAVE to do it with the Shrinking UAA Ranged etc.

 

(And for the record, before anyone says "Well, since the Shrinking method costs a lot more, that automatically makes it the right way to do it, according to the rules," -- don't. That bit of nonsense is one of the very few things about which I disagree strongly with Steve. The most expensive way to do something is the way it should be done? Rubbish! No matter what you come up with, I guarantee you I can come up with a more expensive (and usually more convoluted) way of doing it, which according to Steve, means that's the way you should do it. "To damage someone at range, instead of buying Energy Blast or Killing Attack (Ranged), I'll buy X-Dim Movement, Area of Effect (Entire Universe), Usable As Attack, etc. etc. and when I hit someone with my 'Damage Blast', the entire universe will be transported to another parallel universe where he's just recieved the equivalent of 1d6 Normal damage. That's more expensive, so that's what I've got to do." )

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

 

(And for the record, before anyone says "Well, since the Shrinking method costs a lot more, that automatically makes it the right way to do it, according to the rules," -- don't.

 

i tend to prefer "then the one whose cost is most closely matched with its effectiveness is the right one." myself.

 

i mean, sure, paying 22 cp for up to +3 CV that only apply when within 4" of your partner and which require you to spend usually two half actions (attack actions no less) to setup when for 18 cp you can have +9 dex (no figs) thats up all the time and applies for init, dex skills and such is the published, stated as preferred by the designer and more expsnsive way, but it seems way too silly to try and justify or explain to a player with even a remote knowledge of the system.

[Col. Orange]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Because of the problems you run into vs. Suppress' date=' Dispel, Drain, etc. You "turn off" someone's Multiform, and they [b']become[/b] the monster? It doesn't usually work that way in fiction; plus the "true" character usually started as a human who got "cursed" with becoming a rampaging "thing". That would make the human the base form, conceptually.

 

Plus, do you remember having to build a "shrinking ray" that used a Suppress vs. Growth to shrink an elephant or an aircraft carrier? That's why Growth is no longer used to create things that are larger than human-sized normally...same thing here.

 

Yeah, but a regular guy is built on less points than a HERO.

I hadn't thought about the suppression/dispel thing though. How about "Physical Limitation: Turns human when hit with XD6 Multiform Suppression/Dispel" for the monster and "Physical Limitation: *Immune* to Multiform Suppression/Dispel" for the punny earth human?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

(And for the record' date=' before anyone says "Well, since the Shrinking method costs a lot more, that automatically makes it the right way to do it, according to the rules," -- don't. That bit of nonsense is one of the very few things about which I disagree strongly with Steve. The most expensive way to do something is the way it should be done? Rubbish! No matter what you come up with, I [i']guarantee[/i] you I can come up with a more expensive (and usually more convoluted) way of doing it, which according to Steve, means that's the way you should do it. "To damage someone at range, instead of buying Energy Blast or Killing Attack (Ranged), I'll buy X-Dim Movement, Area of Effect (Entire Universe), Usable As Attack, etc. etc. and when I hit someone with my 'Damage Blast', the entire universe will be transported to another parallel universe where he's just recieved the equivalent of 1d6 Normal damage. That's more expensive, so that's what I've got to do." )

 

I agree that one uses the most reasonable (cost/effectiveness) m,echanic. However, this whole thing has been blown out of proportion. The "rule" doesn't say use the most expensive mechanic possible. It says that, when more than one equally valid means of construction exists, the more expensive one is appropriate. "A ranged attack that does 12d6 normal damage" is an energy blast. There are more convoluted ways to do it ("transform: person to person just struck by a 12d6 EB" or "EDM: to dimension where one person was just struck by 12d6 EB" come to mind), but they are not equally valid, so EB is the correct mechanic to purchase it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Yeah, but a regular guy is built on less points than a HERO.

I hadn't thought about the suppression/dispel thing though. How about "Physical Limitation: Turns human when hit with XD6 Multiform Suppression/Dispel" for the monster and "Physical Limitation: *Immune* to Multiform Suppression/Dispel" for the punny earth human?

 

Going from Tesuji's mechanic, what about simply changing the rules a bit. Rule that Suppress/Dispel do not shut off multiform, they prevent changing form. [Can they remove it now? If Banner pays for the Multiform, then the form targetted has no Multiform power to be suppressed/dispelled, does he?]

 

Instead, Transform: One mutiform form to another" becomes a defined power, perhaps deemed as a "Minor Transform" because they are both facets of the same character.

 

Tesuji's suggestion makes sense to me because it falls sqaurely in the standard of "special effects and power costs are separate".

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

Going from Tesuji's mechanic' date=' what about simply changing the rules a bit. Rule that Suppress/Dispel do not shut off multiform, they prevent changing form. [Can they remove it now? If Banner pays for the Multiform, then the form targetted has no Multiform power to be suppressed/dispelled, does he?']

My first thought was "Hey, I like this notion", but then I started thinking again. (Yup, there's the source of my trouble right there.)

 

In every other case I can think of, Draining/Suppressing a Power that has an ongoing effect (Growth, Density Increase, Flight, Armor, whatever) doesn't keep you from changing how the Power is currently being used, it shuts the Power off. Making such things work this way just on Multiform goes the route of introducing a change in the way things work vs. just this one Power, and it seems to me that's something Steve & Co. has been trying to avoid in their design philosophy. (And it's a goal I support.)

 

(Edit: and before anyone brings up things like Entangles, Entangle is, like Energy Blast, an instant Power that has an ongoing effect. Multiform is Persistant, meaning it will keep functioning even if the user is knocked out, but its effects can be banished by turning the Power off. Not the same thing as an Entangle at all.)

 

Your point about Banner paying for the Multiform and the Hulk therefore not having it and not being able to be Drained/Suppressed of it and being turned back into Banner sounds like a good one, except that even through the forms other than the base form don't have the Multiform Power, they're obviously able to access it on some level...otherwise they'd never be able to change back voluntarily. (And there are plenty of example characters...Captain Marvel, frex...who can do it voluntarily, unlike the Hulk.)

 

So perhaps the fact the secondary forms can seemingly access the base form's Multiform Power means that someone else could access it, too, using a Power like Drain or Suppress, though I think that sets a bad precedent.

 

Perhaps each secondary form should be required to pay points for a Multiform back to the base form? Hmmm...no, that doesn't work, does it? Because then Draining or Suppressing the Multiform would lock them into the current form. Perhaps to revert someone to their base form, you need to use some version of Mind Control? No...what about those who change via circumstance (werewolves), not by "choice"?

 

Drat...even though I lik the way FREd does it better than the way 4th does it, there are still some problems/annoyances, aren't there?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

My first thought was "Hey' date=' I [i']like[/i] this notion", but then I started thinking again. (Yup, there's the source of my trouble right there.)

 

That's the cause of most of my problems too. BAN THINKING!

 

(Edit: and before anyone brings up things like Entangles' date=' Entangle is, like Energy Blast, an [b']instant[/b] Power that has an ongoing effect. Multiform is Persistant, meaning it will keep functioning even if the user is knocked out, but its effects can be banished by turning the Power off. Not the same thing as an Entangle at all.)

 

True, and your explanation for adjustment powers makes sense to me on some levels. However, simply renaming Multiform an "instant" power (it changes you; that's that) that "wears off" on command by the other form (by default, anyway) would fix the discrepancy.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

I've always looked at it as Multiform is "on" when you're in the alternate form and "off" when you're not. While Banner is the Hulk he is really "Banner with Multiform On" and whil Banner is himself he is really "Banner with Muliform Off". By that line of thought to get Hulk to change back into Banner you can use Suppress/Dispel Multiform on him.

 

Multiform can be thought of like this: Change from PowerSet-X to PowerSet-Y, PowerSet-X becomes inert.

 

Where PowerSet-X is everything about the character's base form except the multiform and PowerSet-Y is everything about the characters alternate form. The Multiform is still on the alternate form - but can only be used to turn itself off and return to base form.

 

I do like the idea of splitting baseform/trueform out but I've never liked the idea of forcing the largest point character to pay for multiform - I like the idea of being able to transform into something bigger.

[JmOz]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

I think the simplest & best fix to the problem is to make it so that the base form has to spend X/5 up to the base points and 1/1 for each additional (As per Followers). Banner would still be the base form that has spent a lot of points on the Multiform (

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform base form question

 

I think the simplest & best fix to the problem is to make it so that the base form has to spend X/5 up to the base points and 1/1 for each additional (As per Followers). Banner would still be the base form that has spent a lot of points on the Multiform (

 

Ok so what does that solve?

 

before i would build banner say on 130 cp with 70 pt for hulk. hulk wound be 350 and banner 200.

 

under your idea, banner would be 350, paying a lot of points for the multiform. Remember, the cheaper base form paying for the multipower is NOT hurt by increases in multiform cost, because his point total can be as high as the campaign limits, in theory, just like the other forms.

 

About the only thing i see this change accomplishing is to make the true form spend more cp which are free, so maybe banner gets to take more disads?

 

it still allows me to build as "true form a 350 pt shapeshifter with about 250 pts of real powers and such and a 100 pt multiform with what? 32 different 350 pt forms as a legally costed character. So now i can fly a carbon copy of every other PC and have still another 2 dozen archtypes covered in the dial-a-hero mix and this character is supposed to be "equivalently effective" as the other characters who have but one set of powers to draw on?

 

nah.

 

if i walked up to ANY DND GM with an IQ above room temperature and said "I know you wanted us to play 5th level characters, so here is my guy. his base form is a fourth level ranger but he can alsdo turn into a fifth level fighter, a fifth level druid, a fifth level cleric, a fifth level sorcerer, a fifth level wizard, a fifth level rogue, a fifth level monk or a fifth level cleric, and also these six multiclass combos each totalling five levels each with their own equipments... whaddya think?" i know the answer would be either raucus laughter or taken insult at my slight to his intelligence.

 

but thats just what having base form linked to "pay for multiform cost" and not limiting the other forms by "payer form total cost minus multiform" does for you.

 

But then again, it does have "its built right!" going for it.