Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

[zippercomics]

Hey guys,

 

Just want to brainstorm a bit; do you folks feel that a character in a "Shadowrun-esque" world should pay character points or cash for their cybernetic implants? Here's a brief discussion of cybernetics in my game world, and how they relate to this conversation.

 

Cybernetics were developed first as a medical tool, but developed quickly into tools and implements designed to boost human and metahuman capacity. They have done just that, but aren't a cosmetic or casual thing. They're relatively illegal depending on their type, and are looked down upon as fringe and freakish implements not to be taken lightly. They're rare, and they're only mildly powerful. Probably about 30 AP at the most.

 

I've got three schools of thought on this:

 

a) Money. They pay cash in game to get their cybernetics.

 

Full Points. I build the powers, and they pay full points for it.

 

c) Partial Points. A la a spell in Fantasy Hero, I divide the Real Cost of the cybernetic implants by 1/3 or some other variable, to reflect the fact that they are common, but aren't in a framework or multipower type thing. I'm leaning this way.

 

Any thoughts?

[tgrandjean]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Personally, I favor a bit of both. It costs money to purchase cybernetics (which you write up with possible suggestions from the players). The point cost (divided by 3 to 5 or other depending on setting) is balanced by psychological and/or physical disadvantages decided by the yourself. Cyber-Hero did something of the sort, however in a more complicated framework.

[zippercomics]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Personally' date=' I favor a bit of both. It costs money to purchase cybernetics (which you write up with possible suggestions from the players). The point cost (divided by 3 to 5 or other depending on setting) is balanced by psychological and/or physical disadvantages decided by the yourself. Cyber-Hero did something of the sort, however in a more complicated framework.[/quote']

 

Interesting concept. I may implement this. Note, of course, that I'm trying my best to avoid complication. I prefer a much simpler, calmer route to things, and I want to dodge frameworks for that reason.

 

What do you mean by balancing the physical and / or psychological disads? Do you mean things like the social stigma, and the potential for losing a system irreparably? Flaws inherent to cybernetics reflected by it's lowered cost, rather than a generic, campaign specific "Cybernetics" limitation on all powers?

[tgrandjean]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

OK. A rough example. Wired Reflexes 2 straight from Shadowrun

 

+2 SPD 20pts

+6 DEX: does not affect figured char (-1/2) 12 pts

32 real/ 3 (somewhat cybernetics friendly evironment): 11 pts

 

To balance you might give the player the Psyc lim: Combat junkie: common; moderate intensity 10pts as well as a minor 1 pts quirk.

 

The disadvantages in each case you tailor to each character. Some cybernetics might have known flaws or quirks in which case you attach a specific disadvantage to each piece of hardware.

Some pieces might have even more disadvantages that the actual cost of the system.

[zippercomics]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Coolness. Thanks again for the input! I've built a tentative prefab using that kind of idea, but I never applied cost multipliers. I wanted to make sure it was worth my time before I went ahead and did that. I think, based on what I've seen, that I will do a division of points. Some stuff will come out dirt cheap, but oh well. Thanks!

[Markdoc]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Having played in a couple of cyberpunk games, I'd recommend points.

 

Getting new gear and having your old parts repaired should cost money, but if you can gain abilities and powers simply by forking over cash, expect every single player to be chromed out the wazoo.

 

If that's what you want, then OK, but my experience has been that players have no problem replacing their characters parts with metal anyway...

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Have to agree with Markdoc .. if you use money to any level expect all the characters to drop 5 or 10pts into the Wealth Perk to afford any parts they need.

 

The point route depends on how many points you give each character .. if you give them 150pts to build on then the cost multiplier will assure they get some cyber (thought none can still expected). If you start at 250 or 350 pts then you can bet all characters will have a good amount of cyber and you should charge full cost for it - and you'll still get some that have little to no cyber but have put points into other areas, like a Rigger with one hell of a vehicle.

 

It's all in what level you plan on putting the characters at, how much cyber you want and how common it is.

 

As for disadvantages - if Cybernetics has caused adverse reactions (cyberpsychosis to borrow from CP2020) then you can require all characters who have Cyber take a Psych Disad, Physical Disad and/or Social Disad to reflect how cybernetics work in your campaign. If it's extremely common you can even make them 0pt Disads (like NCM is in standard Heroic Campaigns).

[zippercomics]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

As for disadvantages - if Cybernetics has caused adverse reactions (cyberpsychosis to borrow from CP2020) then you can require all characters who have Cyber take a Psych Disad, Physical Disad and/or Social Disad to reflect how cybernetics work in your campaign. If it's extremely common you can even make them 0pt Disads (like NCM is in standard Heroic Campaigns).

 

I'm sorry to say I'm not familiar with Cyberpunk. I played a few games of it, but it was with a gm who was more anxious to just pit his old PCs against as NPCs than anything else. I learned nothing from the experience.

 

But I am intruigued, and I'm glad I started this thread. I'm learning a lot.

 

What is "cyberpsychosis", though? As far as cybernetics go, I was thinking of creating a specific Limitation - "Cybernetics", ironically enough - that would cover those poor characteristics better than perhaps just the "Restrainable" limitation (as per Fred) would reflect.

 

Cybernetics are uncommon. As I noted, they're looked down on. I can't think of a good analogy, aside from saying we as human beings have always been resistant to excessive body modifications. Just think of the last time you were in the mall and saw someone with a lot of piercings; the 'average' joe is offset by that kind of thing. Now amplify that to imply it's a whole arm or leg, and ...

 

I'm interesting in hearing more about Cyberpsychosis.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

In CP2020, you had a stat called Humanity. As you gained more Cybernetics (or other modifications), your Humanity decreased based on how severe the Cybernetics were. For example, something simple like Skinweave (a nearly undetectable nano-armor skin alteration) had a very low Humanity cost, since it was hardly noticeable. Something like a Cybernetic Arm cost a lot more, because it was obviously and unmistakably 'not you'. And you don't want to know the Humanity cost for a full-body biosculpting ... I did it once, rolled low, and STILL lost half my Humanity.

 

The theory was that, if your humanity was eroded enough via the cybernetics, you'd lose it and enter some kind of sociopathic state where you were basically a kill-happy nutbar. You can imagine that kind of thought going through Luke Skywalker's head when he was looking at that cybernetic hand of his, for instance.

 

I still haven't figured out if this was just something R.Talsorian put in as a game balance mechanic, or if it actually happened in any of the source material.

[GamePhil]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

What I've done in the past (briefly, the game didn't last long) was to require payment in points, but to allow the characters to get those points by taking Disadvantages or reducing other abilities. This would have to be related to the cyberwear or how it was acquired. For example, spending all your money so that you are Destitute to get your cybernetics, becoming more and more detached from reality (Psych Lims), getting dermal plating at the cost of Dexterity, and so on.

 

Disadvantages taken for this purpose would not count against point totals, allowing the cybered out monsters to be more powerful than others, but at a price. Cybernetics are also Limited in various ways, so do not have to pay double after the normal maximums are reached.

[nexus]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

In CP2020, you had a stat called Humanity. As you gained more Cybernetics (or other modifications), your Humanity decreased based on how severe the Cybernetics were. For example, something simple like Skinweave (a nearly undetectable nano-armor skin alteration) had a very low Humanity cost, since it was hardly noticeable. Something like a Cybernetic Arm cost a lot more, because it was obviously and unmistakably 'not you'. And you don't want to know the Humanity cost for a full-body biosculpting ... I did it once, rolled low, and STILL lost half my Humanity.

 

The theory was that, if your humanity was eroded enough via the cybernetics, you'd lose it and enter some kind of sociopathic state where you were basically a kill-happy nutbar. You can imagine that kind of thought going through Luke Skywalker's head when he was looking at that cybernetic hand of his, for instance.

 

I still haven't figured out if this was just something R.Talsorian put in as a game balance mechanic, or if it actually happened in any of the source material.

 

I've heard (not confirmed) that Cyberpychosis was an afterthought. In the initial playtesting there was no such thing and almost all the players ended up cyberup like robocop. Since that wasn't the mood they were looking for but they didn't want cyberware to be prohibilitively expensivel, Cyberpsychosis was added.

 

It was/is a highly contriversial thing in the game and the cause of many flame wars. One side think it fits the source material and the themes of power and its price. Other thing its a heavy handed and over simplified mechanic that represented a very complex subject. Basically, if you the type that wants implanted claws, armored skin and a mono whip for a tongue you weren't too stable to begin with, it wasn't the cyberware that did it.

 

When I played, I did notice that the Humanity stat meant alot of cybered up killing machines started as warm Empathic people for some odd reason. Not that types you'd think would want to replace their right arm with a chainsaw/flamethrower combo. There were also questions on what counted as "cyberware"? Why would a person that got a cyberarm to replace the one lost and make them more normal be closer to going sociopathic? Does my Grandmother's replacement hip count?

 

Later was definined more as electronic and chemical damage to the nervous system from implants, but still didn't seem very popular.

 

As for the topic, I would charge points and money. The benefit of a cyberpunk/biopunk setting is that you have easy justification for buying things you normally can't after chargen in a Heroic setting, like powers, talents and rapidly increased attributes. Want a 20 Strength? If you have the money and the points after a week of play, go get a muscle graft, for example.

[Jarekk]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

I'm making my players pay in money and character points.

 

Because, once they have the Cyberware, it's part of them...

 

But, I'm fairly new at this, so that might not be the best course of action.

 

 

(%)

[Markdoc]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

One option might be to tread a middle path: in Mike Surbrook's Kazei 5 game, you paid points (and cash) for cyberware: it was, after all, a part of the character. You also paid points for special gear (gizmos, mcguffins, etc) but off the rack ordinary items you just paid cash for.

 

So for example, my character (Kenji) was the team's hacker/infiltrator.

 

He had a super-nifty experiental suit of power armour. That was a unique item, so he paid points for it and if it got damaged, he had to pay to get the parts to fix it.

 

He had some minor cybernetics, which he paid points for - again, to get them improved, or repaired would cost money.

 

And then he had his "stuff" - his bitching stereo system, a big collection of guns and swords, some flashy clothes a car, an apartment, etc. All that stuff cost cash only. Anyone could use it, take or buy something like it if they had the cash.

 

There are two rationales.

 

First, the meta-game rationale.

Players used to accumulate impressive weapons collections ('cause they could buy them) but common sense dictates you could only carry and use so many weapons. Cyber, OTOH is wildly useful for lots of things. You can expect almost all players to cram as much in as they can, if it "only" costs money. After all, it's an investment in their future right? If you don't have subdermal armour you might not *have* a future...

The metagame rationale is about keeping characters balanced against each other and also allowing for non-cybered characters. It's not just physical power - a lot of knowledge skills become redundant if you have a character who can access giant databases*

 

Second, there's the in-game rationale: powerful as it might be, having 10 kilos of cybernetics grafted onto the end of your arm, or an always on network connection feeding straight into your brain is going to take some getting used to. The time you spend in surgery, physio and learning not to wirelessly flush the toilet in your apartment when you just want to dump some files you downloaded takes time - that's time the other characters could have spent working out at the gym or learning new skills. Maintaining and learning how to repair and use your special one-of-a-kind items also takes time

The in-game rationale is simply to explain how/why the players have to pay points for "keen stuff".

 

cheers, Mark

 

*to take this to an extreme, I had a character who was a cybered police officer with her own AI. Who needs KS: criminal underworld, when you can just make a database call? Who needs AK:Megatokyo, when you can call up a detailed map with GPS positioning and up to the second traffic pattern overlays? For that matter, who needs backup, when you can say "Charlie, I need to patch me through to the orbital laser array."

 

Character sheet here: http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/character_archive/bo_zhao.html.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Cyberpsychosis was not a part of the original 'source material' of the Cyberpunk Genre ... as has been pointed out, in the source material people who went for Body-Mod did so because they liked it. Peircing yourself nineteen times does not make you listen to bad Goth music - you probably did that first.... (it might be the other way around come to think of it... great - Heavy Metal is of the devil, GothRock is of peircing parlors.)

 

If you are really interested in the Cyberpunk genre here's how to get started: 1) forget about Shadowrun ... wipe it from your brain. please! (ok. that's personal opinion, but many many cyberpunk fans - the people into the literary genre it started as - hate Shadowrun.)

 

2) Read. Cyberpunk is first and foremost a sub-genre of the Sci-Fi genre. Here's the super short list of books:

Neuromancer - William Gibson (and all his other books) [This, incidentally, is considered the Granddaddy of all cypberpunk books, but it's not by any means "the first cyberpunk novel" .. or maybe it is, debates still open on that one]

Hardwired - Walter John Williams

Islands In The Net - Bruce Sterling (he has better novels, but this does a good job of capturing the feel)

Software - Rudy Rucker (and the rest of the 'Ware series)

Snow Crash - Neil Stephenson (ok, not one of the original CP authors, but still a good read)

 

That's a start.

 

Back to the game system ... I personally make everyone pay for cybernetics on character creation - and once in game it has to be both Money and Character Points. Money because, well, that's part of the game experience and CharacterPoints because it requires mechanical translation into game affecting stats.

[Damon_Dusk]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Just wanted to throw in here with my own experience, as I am running a Shadowrun game in Hero.

 

To put it simply, characters pay money for cyberware/bioware, as it's a simulation of the genre. But there are a few things that go into it that balance it off. First, the Wealth perk is changed to more follow the Shadowrun system (characters can pay upwards of 40 points just for wealth). Second, cyberware is more like a piece of equipment than just a new "power". It can be damaged, it can be destroyed, it can be removed, and it can be "turned off" in special circumstances. Third, to emulate the (3rd Edition) Shadowrun take on "Humanity" or "Cyber-psychosis", their Essence attribute, installing too much cyberware begins to give a blanket penalty to all the character's Interaction Skills (and Magic Skills, but that's a different story).

 

I would say, go with what "feels" right for the game you are trying to run. If the cyberware is more of a tool or piece of equipment, then have the characters pay money for it (if you really want to balance it out, make the cost of wealth give an equal amount of money as what the cyberware would cost; i.e. if wired reflexes has a real cost of 11 and costs 100,000 dollars, make 11 points of wealth give the character 100,000 dollars). But if calling it "cyberware" is really just a special effect for an ability that is much like a superpower, have them pay points.

 

Either way, I think game balance can easily be preserved and give you the style of game you are looking for.

[zippercomics]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Based on the conversation here, I've made my choice. When the day comes and I get the gutz to run this, I'm going to go with a requirement that players pay for their cyberware and bioware in both points and in cashola. It does make sense, after all, since cyberware represents a more intrinsic characteristic of a character than a gun or his coffee pot does. It also represents a financial drain, and it only seems logical to represent this.

 

You guys have been great. You're input is always welcome. In fact ... here's a question.

 

It was noted I should "wipe Shadowrun from my memory". Trust me, I've tried; ergo, my choice to use Hero to run a Cyber Hero campaign, rather than just waltzing back into the dimly lit bar that is the Shadowrun 3rd Edition, and learning the six or forty distinctive systems you need to run a campaign. Nonetheless, I've always liked that "DnD, a long time later" kind of feel, and that's what my campaign will be. I have a Fantasy Hero world, and I'm going to just naturally evolve it into a Neo-Morwold, burning cities and broken dreams, end of the line for all life, Elves, Dwarves, and everything in between type of setting. Cyberware, bioware, the whole gamut.

 

But what makes good Cyberpunk? There are fans of Shadowrun, there's fans of Cyberpunk itself, but what characteristics of those settings - or any others I'm wildly oblivious to - makes them good? Or bad, for that matter.

 

My first question would be about races; I've always liked the idea of the standard gamut of Fantasy Races, and some of my own choice puppies, thrown in instead of just being humans. Also, I'm not a big fan of mixing genres, so no aliens. But is a cadre of Fantasy Hero races with the potential to be cyberninjas or deckers bad?

 

Just brainstorming at this point. Maybe I should start a new thread.

 

Merci

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

But what makes good Cyberpunk? There are fans of Shadowrun' date=' there's fans of Cyberpunk itself, but what characteristics of those settings - or any others I'm wildly oblivious to - makes them good? Or bad, for that matter.[/quote']

 

This is almost "The Question" as asked on the usenet group alt.cyberpunk. 'What Is Cyberpunk?'

 

To answer your question I refer you to the last 15 years of posts made to the alt.cyberpunk newsgroup. The answer you want is in there, somewhere. Maybe.

 

My personal take is that Cyberpunk is a feeling brought on by certain elements of a setting. I generally don't put elves and their buddies in my Cyberpunk games or stories (that mixing genre's thing) but you could easily if you wanted.

 

One of the best ways to get the correct feel of Cyberpunk is to try and induce the following: Futureshock, Cultureshock and Technoshock. Preferably all at once. Read Alvin Toffler's 'Futureshock' book to get an idea of what all those are.

 

Basically you take a person, throw them into a culture that changes so fast they can't keep up (Cultureshock), moves forward before they even grasp what is going on (Futureshock) and continues to relentlessly tell them they are out of date and need to upgrade everything from the vacuum cleaner to their cybernetic implants without sayign why (Technoshock).

 

We have some, or all, of that today - Cyberpunk is an extrapolation of current conditions into the near future. An example of Technoshock are the large parts of our population who don't understand how a computer, and the internet, actually work but know "Just enough to check their email." Cultureshock has always been there, usually occurs when you travel to a foreign land and get so disoriented by local custom you react adversly or go numb, Futureshock occurs whenever any of the above are combined or a period of time - though that period is getting shorter and shorter, as soon as you understand one thing it's already an obsolete concept.

 

 

Hope that helps a little.

[Damon_Dusk]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

It was noted I should "wipe Shadowrun from my memory". Trust me, I've tried; ergo, my choice to use Hero to run a Cyber Hero campaign, rather than just waltzing back into the dimly lit bar that is the Shadowrun 3rd Edition, and learning the six or forty distinctive systems you need to run a campaign. Nonetheless, I've always liked that "DnD, a long time later" kind of feel, and that's what my campaign will be. I have a Fantasy Hero world, and I'm going to just naturally evolve it into a Neo-Morwold, burning cities and broken dreams, end of the line for all life, Elves, Dwarves, and everything in between type of setting. Cyberware, bioware, the whole gamut.

 

Well, I'm a bit in the same boat, in that I have a group of players that like the Shadowrun setting, but none of us are willing to go through the effort (read: pain) of relearning the Shadowrun rules. So I have done a fairly comprehensive work up of Shadowrun for Hero (about 160 pages of stuff) that covers just about everything (archetypes, magic, weapons, equipment, vehicles, rigging, the matrix, etc.). So far, the campaign is progressing fairly well, and even with characters paying money for cyberware, there are no shortages of magician characters (who must pay points for all their abilities).

 

As for what makes good cyberpunk or Shadowrun setting in game terms, I would say a lot of it is oppression of the the characters by "the man." Who is "the man?" It could be anything. In cyberpunk, it could be the dominant corporations the keep the characters down in the shadows and the gutter. It could be organized crime that burns the characters at every opportunity. In Shadowrun, it could be any one of the many shadow organizations (magical groups, dragons, Tir Tairngire, gangs, etc.). To me, cyberpunk/Shadowrun is a tragic setting, where the characters tend to get along as well as they can, always keeping in mind that they could die at any moment, and struggling to make it out of the gutter, though very few actually do.

 

Also, I think the players need to always have the feeling that they only know half the story, which tends to help spur them on with motivation to find out what's really going on. Conspiracies abound, everyone is scheming, and the characters happen to be caught in the middle.

 

But it can also depend on your players as well. Are they going to let you keep "screwing them over by the man" and still enjoy the game? You have to let them have their minor successes and reprieves so they don't feel so oppressed all the time. But you also have to have the feeling that there is always something out there just waiting to burst their bubble. They are never safe, since the gritty setting always means that someone is gunning for you.

 

Of course that's just my take, and it may not be "strict" cyberpunk per se, but it tends to work well in a gaming environment.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Has anybody considered the option of paying points for anything that the character has at the start of the game (i.e. created into the character), and having to pay money (and do some roleplaying) to add anything after that? Depending on the setting, the character may have to find a doctor that will perform the surgery, pay him an exhorbitant fee to do it, and worry about what else the doctor might do while he is under the knife.

 

That way, the character gets the new ability that he wants, but the GM can add in any "mystery disadvantages" that will keep things interesting (and provide future plot hooks). Or am I just too cruel as a GM?

[tgrandjean]

Re: Cyber Hero: Money or pts for Cybernetics?

 

Ghost-Angel's answer is far better, but as to an answer to what makes 'good' cyberpunk here's a few thing to consider.

 

Full blown cinematic action: Adreneline pumping, lead spewing, martial arts mayhem. Cheezy, and not necessarily cyberpunk per se. but most of the movies commonly considered cyberpunk plus most players are very familiar with this approach. In general, most of the players that I've ran into prefer this style. Any time the action slows down in the game, just toss in another combat. Try to maintain plot and coherence, but don't get discouraged if your players turn your game into a shooting gallery. If everyone is having fun, so be it.

 

Stealth action: Think Tom Clancy's (and company) techno-thrillers. Action should be common, but deadly. Stealth is the prefered method of operation. The opposition should be too large or dangerous to take on directly. Most operations that I've played in tend to start out this way, but errors lead to an attempt to blow our way out. Embarrassing to say the least.

 

Detective/ Street noir: I haven't personally ran into anybody who prefers the whole 'style over substance' approach, but it is an essencial part of cyberpunk. More emphasis is placed on looking cool than anything else. I lump this in with the detective genre mostly because combat and action are a very minor part of this game. Instead, social interaction is the name of the game.

 

Other genre quirks: No matter how jaded the players are, find some way to shock them. I'm serious about this. Cyberpunk at heart is about stripping the illusions from the characters. In this case, metagaming is encouraged. You need to have the players involved with their characters. Whether this be fear, tittalation, wonder, or horror, cyberpunk is about pushing the limits.

 

Corporation may not always screw over the players, but there is always more to the story than the line that they are giving you. If the players ignore this, it to their hazard and loss. Conspiracy is an important part of the genre.

 

The Net. It pays to know a little about how the net operates yourself (as well as some of the archao-systems such as BBS's) but the net should play at least a minor role in each game. Whether a place to meet contacts, hack systems, play games, or perform surveillance, the net (and it's substance: INFORMATION) should be involved in some manner. Ditto technology. Rip the latest systems out of Popular Science shamelessly. Technology should invoke the 'Wow' factor.