Rage-Enhanced Strength

[Lord Liaden]

Hey, gang: A recent "discussion" over on RPGnet brought up the sample "Rage Enhanced Strength" Power in The Ultimate Brick, and has prompted me to take another look at it. Not to give away too much publicly, but it uses Aid with the Continuous Advantage and Increased Maximum to allow for a gradual increase in STR (up to +60 in this case) that kicks in when the character is Enraged, and disappears when he ceases to be Enraged. It's essentially the same as the Power writeup for the Hulk that Darren Watts wrote for Game Trade Magazine last year. This has an Active Cost of 132 Points, and a Real Cost of 44. Iin the discussion it was brought up that simply buying +60 STR with No Figured Characteristics would cost 40 Real Points, and it would be available all the time. These costs seem to be out of line with the benefit you get.

 

With all due respect for Steve Long and Darren Watts who created Rage Enhanced Strength, IMHO they chose an inappropriate Power to build it. The Power for this effect should be the alternate form of Aid, "Succor." Succor has half the Base Cost of normal Aid, and all benefit from it ceases when a character stops paying END for it. Normally it can only add the maximum you could roll on the dice to a Characteristic, but according to the FAQ if you apply the Continuous Advantage to it it will keep adding points as long as it runs, with no upper limit and no need to keep taking Attack Actions on your Phases. Of course, you can always add a Custom Limitation to give it a set maximum.

 

So, basing this on the example of the Ultimate Brick Power: 2d6 Succor to Strength (10 Base Points), Continuous (+1), 0 END Cost (+1/2), Trigger (when Enraged: +1/4); No Conscious Control (-1), Self Only (-1/2), Maximum 60 Points Gained (let's be conservative and call it -1/4). Active Points 27, Real Points 10.

 

Mind you, the benefits of Succor written this way would also be lost if the character was Stunned (since the Power would shut down), and you might not want the character to lose all his accumulated Strength in those circumstances. In that case I would suggest adding Persistant, and a Custom Lim that the Power shuts down when the character stops being Enraged. Again I'll be conservative and call that last one -1/4. Active Points 32, Real Points 11.

 

Opinions? Anything I missed?

 

(BTW even assuming my assumptions are supportable, I don't blame Steve and Darren for making the choice they did; it's easy to forget that the permutations of the 5E rules are new to them, too.)

[Bloodstone]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Interesting idea, but

 

2d6 Succor to Strength (10 Base Points), Continuous (+1)...

 

Succor is already a considered a Constant power, so you don't need to apply Continous to it.

 

Q: Is the optional Succor form of Aid a Constant Power' date=' subject to the normal rules governing Constant Powers, or an Instant Power that just requires END expenditure to maintain its effects?[/b']

 

A: It’s a Constant Power. Think of it as being more or less like Suppress in reverse. When a character activates it, it adds the amount of Character Points rolled on the dice. The character maintains these by paying END each Phase; if he stops paying END, the added points immediately vanish. (If a character wants to buy the power to 0 END, apply the same rules as for Reduced Endurance on Suppress, 5E 145.) The power does not go on adding and adding more Character Points every Phase automatically; the END paid simply maintains the points added by the first roll. To add more points, the character has to use an Attack Action, roll the dice again, and pay more END — and, as with Suppress, the character can keep adding effect this way without worrying about the maximum effect rules for ordinary Aid.

[Jhamin]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

I may have missed something, but I've always been a little fuzzy on why anyone would buy a personal Aid to begin with.

 

The Aid power is great if you want to boost someone else, but when you want to pump yourself up it is usually alot cleaner, easier, and cheaper to just buy the extra ability and apply a limit.

 

So if someone can illuminate my confusion while they are answering Lord Lidden, that would be great.

[Rene]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Normally it can only add the maximum you could roll on the dice to a Characteristic' date=' but according to the FAQ if you apply the Continuous Advantage to it it will keep adding points as long as it runs, with no upper limit and no need to keep taking Attack Actions on your Phases. Of course, you can always add a Custom Limitation to give it a set maximum.[/quote']

 

I've read the sections for Succor, Continuous, and Adjustment Powers in the FAQ and didn't find anywhere that Succor has no upper limit when it's Continuous, could you point it to me? I always thought Succor was exactly like Aid (excepting the differences pointed out in the book itself).

[Rene]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Succor is already a considered a Constant power' date=' so you don't need to apply Continous to it.[/quote']

 

For the power construct he is trying to get, it would be required the Continous Advantage. Succor is Constant but only for that particular application. He wants the capability to roll again and add, roll again and add, every Phase.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

For the power construct he is trying to get, it would be required the Continous Advantage. Succor is Constant but only for that particular application. He wants the capability to roll again and add, roll again and add, every Phase.

 

I know what he's going for, but Continous is a duration advantage that simply makes an Instant power Constant.

 

If I'm understanding things right, Succor is already Constant and Cumulative, but normally requires an Attack action to use. The Trigger (when Enraged) negates the need for that attack action, so every Phase the character is Enraged he should be able to roll the Succor and add the dice to the previous total. This continues until the character is no longer Enraged, at which point (since it is NCC) all points instantly fade.

 

Am I right or am I missing something?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Interesting idea, but

 

 

 

Succor is already a considered a Constant power, so you don't need to apply Continous to it.

 

That's true, but you'll notice from your quotation that with a single Attack Action you can only add points equal to what you roll on the dice; to add more you have to keep using up Attack Actions, which doesn't really suit this power construct.

 

I took a tip from the description in the FAQ that this is like "Suppress in reverse." In the description of Suppress it says that you can avoid using an Attack Action to keep Suppressing Character Points by buying Continuous for it, even though it's already a Constant Power. (FREd. p. 145)

[Agent X]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Isn't there a gradual effect limitation somewhere? I forget the value but say buy 60 strength no figured characteristics only while enraged with this gradual effect limitation so you get a little bit each phase until you get the full 60. I think they talk about using the limitation to show the effect of poison or something for an attack.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

*Read's p145*

 

ah, that was the part I was missing then I suppose...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

I've read the sections for Succor' date=' Continuous, and Adjustment Powers in the FAQ and didn't find anywhere that Succor has no upper limit when it's Continuous, could you point it to me? I always thought Succor was exactly like Aid (excepting the differences pointed out in the book itself).[/quote']

 

As you'll notice in the section from the FAQ that Bloodstone quoted above, Succor can keep adding points as long as its user keeps making successful Attack Actions, using up his Action Phases to do so. For the rest, please see my previous post.

[Rene]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

I know what he's going for' date=' but Continous is a duration advantage that simply makes an Instant power Constant. [/quote']

 

"Continuous" can work in several ways. When applied to Mental Powers it works in a different way, and it also can be applied to an already Constant power (Suppress) to make it possible for you to re-roll and keep adding. Lord Liaden is applying it to Suppress's opposite, Succor, in this way. Slightly unnoficial, perhaps.

 

 

If I'm understanding things right, Succor is already Constant and Cumulative, but normally requires an Attack action to use. The Trigger (when Enraged) negates the need for that attack action, so every Phase the character is Enraged he should be able to roll the Succor and add the dice to the previous total. This continues until the character is no longer Enraged, at which point (since it is NCC) all points instantly fade.

 

Am I right or am I missing something?

 

No. Succor works like that: you roll a 3, and then you get these same 3 points for as long as you pay END. Succor is Constant in that way. It don't allows you to automatically roll again and keep adding, as if it were a Continuous RKA.

 

Now, if you assume that you don't need to set up the Trigger again after it's sprung, then I agree with you that you could interpret it to mean the character can automatically roll every Phase he is Triggered.

 

Still, I disagree with Lord Liaden that you can keep adding with no upper limit. *Suppress* allows you to keep draining without upper limit, but that is because Drain (the power Suppress) is based on, has no upper limit. Now Succor is based on Aid, and Aid has a upper limit, so I assume Succor has too, no matter if it's "Continuous" or not, you still must buy up the Maximum Points you can adjust.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Isn't there a gradual effect limitation somewhere?

 

Gradual Effect has a value based on how long the effect takes. The smallest ammount listed is -1/4. That lim makes the power only take effect during post segment 12.

 

This would be a slightly more costly and possibly less accurate way to go. I think it would look something like this:

 

+60 STR, Trigger (Becoming Enraged; +1/4); No Conscious Control (Cannot Activate, But Can Use Freely Once Triggered; -1), STR Fades Immediatly if Character Recovers From Being Enraged (-1), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Gradual Effect (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12); -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4)

 

75 AP, 19 RC

[Rene]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

As you'll notice in the section from the FAQ that Bloodstone quoted above' date=' Succor can keep adding points as long as its user keeps making successful Attack Actions, using up his Action Phases to do so. For the rest, please see my previous post. [/quote']

 

Ooops. Now I've seen it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

I know what he's going for, but Continous is a duration advantage that simply makes an Instant power Constant.

 

If I'm understanding things right, Succor is already Constant and Cumulative, but normally requires an Attack action to use. The Trigger (when Enraged) negates the need for that attack action, so every Phase the character is Enraged he should be able to roll the Succor and add the dice to the previous total. This continues until the character is no longer Enraged, at which point (since it is NCC) all points instantly fade.

 

Am I right or am I missing something?

 

My impression is if you set a Trigger for a Constant Power, once it goes off it just keeps running unless you reset the Trigger, which normally takes a half-Phase action (according to the FAQ). That wouldn't allow for the character points gained to keep building without attention by the character. There are options for Trigger that might deal with that in Digital HERO, though. I should look into that.

 

Truth to tell, I was using the Power from Ultimate Brick as my guideline; just changing things that I thought would be more appropriate for Succor instead of Aid.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

...it also can be applied to an already Constant power (Suppress) to make it possible for you to re-roll and keep adding. Lord Liaden is applying it to Suppress's opposite' date=' Succor, in this way. Slightly unnoficial, perhaps.[/quote']

 

I just asked Steve what he thinks of this idea in terms of it's "legality" (link). Now that I'm seeing more of the whole picture, I really like the construct and hope to use it with my favorite Hulk-inspired Brick...pending GM approval that is...

[Agent X]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Gradual Effect has a value based on how long the effect takes. The smallest ammount listed is -1/4. That lim makes the power only take effect during post segment 12.

 

This would be a slightly more costly and possibly less accurate way to go. I think it would look something like this:

S'cool.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

I've always thought of Hulk's power being Physical Absorption to STR.

"Stop shooting him! You're only making him angrier!"

 

If I were buying as a player, I would probably buy it as:

+15 STR, No Figured, (1.5 END for +15 STR)

+15 STR, No Figured, x2 END (4.5 END for +30 STR)

+15 STR, No Figured, x3 END (9 END for +45 STR)

+15 STR, No Figured, x4 END (15 END for +60 STR)

 

And then you could express how mad you were by how much END you spent...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Hmm... Interesting take on the effect, and I could certainly see a character being designed that way. Thing is, that would allow the character to choose how much END he spends to employ the enhanced STR, at any time. This power is clearly intended to model the "Hulk effect," which is a gradual process that boosts his strength the longer he remains agitated.

 

If you defined some mechanism for quantifying the "anger level" of a character, certainly your scale could be tied to that.

[tesuji]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

If you defined some mechanism for quantifying the "anger level" of a character, certainly your scale could be tied to that.

 

the mechanic for this sort of thing i used before in hero was to take the enraged status.

 

 

Give the character an "easily angered" psych lim, with a tough ego roll and common circumstances.

give the character an enraged triggered by "being angered" (common) with an 8- or 11- trigger chance.

give the character a berserk, triggered when "being enraged" (uncommon) with an 8- to go but a

 

then buy the stats...

 

Some are normal.

Some are "only when angered" at say -1/4

Some are only when enraged at say -1/2

Some are "only when berserk." at at least -1.

 

what you get are a series of gradually increasing loss of control rage rolls, and at each stage, more characteristics kick in.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

That's quite elegant, tesuji. Of course, once the initial "anger" kicks in, the succeeding levels would be unpredictable as to when the roll that starts them would be set off, which could be good or bad depending on what the GM and player want.

 

One mechanical question, though: the Enraged and Berserk both have Recovery Rolls, and the Berserk is based on being Enraged. Do they both have to have the same roll, and roll for Recovery at the same time?

[Jarekk]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Hey' date=' gang: A recent "discussion" over on RPGnet brought up the sample "Rage Enhanced Strength" Power in [b']The Ultimate Brick[/b], and has prompted me to take another look at it. Not to give away too much publicly, but it uses Aid with the Continuous Advantage and Increased Maximum to allow for a gradual increase in STR (up to +60 in this case) that kicks in when the character is Enraged, and disappears when he ceases to be Enraged. It's essentially the same as the Power writeup for the Hulk that Darren Watts wrote for Game Trade Magazine last year. This has an Active Cost of 132 Points, and a Real Cost of 44. Iin the discussion it was brought up that simply buying +60 STR with No Figured Characteristics would cost 40 Real Points, and it would be available all the time. These costs seem to be out of line with the benefit you get.

 

With all due respect for Steve Long and Darren Watts who created Rage Enhanced Strength, IMHO they chose an inappropriate Power to build it. The Power for this effect should be the alternate form of Aid, "Succor." Succor has half the Base Cost of normal Aid, and all benefit from it ceases when a character stops paying END for it. Normally it can only add the maximum you could roll on the dice to a Characteristic, but according to the FAQ if you apply the Continuous Advantage to it it will keep adding points as long as it runs, with no upper limit and no need to keep taking Attack Actions on your Phases. Of course, you can always add a Custom Limitation to give it a set maximum.

 

So, basing this on the example of the Ultimate Brick Power: 2d6 Succor to Strength (10 Base Points), Continuous (+1), 0 END Cost (+1/2), Trigger (when Enraged: +1/4); No Conscious Control (-1), Self Only (-1/2), Maximum 60 Points Gained (let's be conservative and call it -1/4). Active Points 27, Real Points 10.

 

Mind you, the benefits of Succor written this way would also be lost if the character was Stunned (since the Power would shut down), and you might not want the character to lose all his accumulated Strength in those circumstances. In that case I would suggest adding Persistant, and a Custom Lim that the Power shuts down when the character stops being Enraged. Again I'll be conservative and call that last one -1/4. Active Points 32, Real Points 11.

 

Opinions? Anything I missed?

 

(BTW even assuming my assumptions are supportable, I don't blame Steve and Darren for making the choice they did; it's easy to forget that the permutations of the 5E rules are new to them, too.)

 

 

Call me crazy--but didn't the OTHER example of that, from that other book (can I say which one without infringing copyrights?) use succor instead of straight aid?

 

I'd check, but I can't find my copy of what is THE most helpful book for any Champions campaign EVER! ...someone will bleed for this! (probably me, though.)

 

(%)

[tesuji]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

 

That's quite elegant, tesuji. Of course, once the initial "anger" kicks in, the succeeding levels would be unpredictable as to when the roll that starts them would be set off, which could be good or bad depending on what the GM and player want.

Absolutely. The idea started when I wanted, for a PC of mine, the anger thing to have bite. The notion of each stage creating the risk of going further, eventually even to full blown berserk, was appealing because of the actual risk the lesser levels inherited. It kept the full blown "out of contrl" rather limited, but unpredictable.

One mechanical question, though: the Enraged and Berserk both have Recovery Rolls, and the Berserk is based on being Enraged. Do they both have to have the same roll, and roll for Recovery at the same time?

 

I rolled only for the highest level at a time. Essentially, if berserk, he rolled to recover from that, and if that happened, went to enraged, and would start the next phase rolling for it. Essentially the exact same chain sequence he went thru to get to the point, only in reverse.

[tesuji]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

Call me crazy--but didn't the OTHER example of that, from that other book (can I say which one without infringing copyrights?) use succor instead of straight aid?

 

I'd check, but I can't find my copy of what is THE most helpful book for any Champions campaign EVER! ...someone will bleed for this! (probably me, though.)

 

(%)

 

I do not recall any of their samples using succor, but my book is not in front of me so thats running on pre-morning-juice graymatter, which is always suspect. :-)

 

I recall them doing another iteration of the rage induced strength (strength induced rage) which instead gave control over the strength but gaining a side effect of rage as enraged or berserk side effects but it used aid as well.

 

personally, i never did get the 5e fascination with AID for self-only limited circumstance characteristics. If i wanted a ring of strength, i would buy strength with OIF, not aid to strength with "only when wearing this ring", and i really do not see the circumstantial "when angry" as anything deserving such a complex construct.

 

This is of course, already well ingrained. The various iterations of "tandem fighting with my partner" from UMA and Champions are all built as the aid thing, and similarly suffer the price problem we see here. +3 CV only when fighting within 5" of my buddy (and requiring several attack actions to get to full power beforehand) costs 22-24 cp iirc, when +9 dexterity (no figureds or just selling back, saving on speed, whatever) is only 18 cp and gives you more (init, skill rolls.)

 

Of course, for that one, i personally would be looking at 8 pt combat levels with the same -1/x for "within 5" of my partner" they use making it really about 5-6 pts, or 15-18 for all three levels.

 

Again, my recollection is probably off a little, but...

[tesuji]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

On the succor issue, here is what i think...

 

the current succor is quite broken. the combination of free cumulative, unlimited gain, and 5 cp per die and so on is out of whack for the price.

 

the use of self-only adjustment powers is broekn in the opposite direction. The impact of self only is way too much for those for -1/2. -1/2 might wortk right for other powers, or at least everyone is used to it, but its just too little to make sense with these. (I still feel condition characteristics should be bought as characteristics. its just too simple.)

 

The net result of rewriting the notion with the over cheap succor and the over priced self-only adjustments might actually manage to cancel each other out enough to get the price sometimes in the ballpark.

 

I dont like it, though, for three reasons.

 

1. it still uses the most complex means to get the solution. Once you start using it for other such cases, where you need IPE and such because the blue glow doesn't make sense, it becomes back into poor cost range.

 

2. it promotes more uses of succor, which is not good if you think the power is underpriced. Moreover, the reason succor is chosen, to save points because it is cheaper and produces a lower cost, seems to be the wrong reason to move to it. It also sustains the notion of using adjustment powers self-only for conditional powers/char instead of just conditional limits on the powers/char, which IMO is a flawed build practice.

 

3. finally, for most of these concepts, either the fighting with buddy or rage induced strength, being stunned should NOT trigger the loss of the characteristics, which is what happens when succor is used (unless you go with 0 end persistent in which case you run headlong into another warning, iirc.)

 

But, thats just me.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rage-Enhanced Strength

 

I see your points, tesuji, and they make a lot of sense. I agree that "self only" is too cheap for Aid, because "others only" (also -1/2) has unlimited "others" that it can be used on, but Self Only is just one person. Limited Characteristics makes more sense in some circumstances.

 

I also have trouble with Succor (and Suppress for that matter) having a cumulative effect by just successively targetting a victim with the same Power. That strikes me as dangerously unbalancing, giving you potentially limitless effect for the same cost. I don't have as much of a problem with these powers with Continuous on them, though; since they're already Constant, you're paying a hefty price in Advantages to get that cumulative effect, and that strikes me as fair.

 

Just to be clear, though, I didn't choose the Succor construct I outlined above just to be cheaper. Certainly bringing the cost more in line with what I think the effect is worth is a benefit, but my main motivation was to find a suitable mechanic for this effect. "Rage Enhanced Strength" seeks to accumulate an enhanced Characteristic gradually, but to have that benefit disappear when the Power shuts off. You really have to twist Aid to get it to do that, but Continuous Succor works that way already.

 

(BTW there were a couple of other things about the way that specific example Power was built that I thought made it unnecessarily pricey, but I don't want to turn this into a "bash the game writers" thread.)