Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Steve's answer confused me' date=' and if I read it correctly it means I've been handling Find Weakness incorrectly from the start and some of my previous posts need ammending. I posted a clarification question that will hopefully clear this up.[/quote']

I think the terminology being used in FREd can be a little confusing.

 

I think the intent of the rule is easier to understand if you:

 

replace:

normal defenses

(including damage resistance)

with something like:

natural or native defenses

 

and then replace:

resistant defenses

(armor, force field and force wall)

with something like:

surface or non-native defenses

As strange as it sounds, it appears that the rule is defined by special effect.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Okay, now I'm even more confused. He seemed to answer my question with an answer that supports my original interpretation of Find Weakness, but he said something about the second example of in my question that didn't even apply. (said Armor would be reduced by half, even though my example used Resistant Defenses Power, and that Normal Defenses wouldn't be affected, even though I was targeting Normal Defenses.)

 

I think I'm just gonn a say f--- it and keep doing it the way I've always done it. If anyone can actually prove it works one way or the other, I'd appreciate it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Okay, now I'm even more confused. He seemed to answer my question with an answer that supports my original interpretation of Find Weakness, but he said something about the second example of in my question that didn't even apply. (said Armor would be reduced by half, even though my example used Resistant Defenses Power, and that Normal Defenses wouldn't be affected, even though I was targeting Normal Defenses.)

 

I think I'm just gonn a say f--- it and keep doing it the way I've always done it. If anyone can actually prove it works one way or the other, I'd appreciate it.

I think Steve may have glanced through your example and misread part of it.

 

you asked:

 

Find Weakness Clarification

---

I just read your answer to Zanthis' post and it seems I might have missunderstood something...

 

When using Find Weakness, you must decide if you are using it against Normal or Resistant Defenses, that much is clear. But it is versus the total of the affected Defense, regardless of source, or only verses the Powers of that particular source?

 

Example: I have Find Weakness used with a normal punch, and I make a roll against Normal Defenses versus a target with

10 PD and Armor +10 PD

(

total 20 PD/ 10 rPD

). Will a sucessful roll

not

reduce the value of the Armor, even though it adds to normal as well as resistent defenses (total 15 PD/5 rPD), or reduce the total (10 PD/10 rPD)?

 

Example 2: Same situation, but versus a character with a 20 PD and Resistant Defenses 20 PD. Would it affect his defenses at all, or reduce his Normal by half?

and Steve answered:

 

If used against Normal Defenses, that's what Find Weakness will reduce. It won't affect Resistant Defenses in that case, regardless of whether the target could apply them against the attack. In your first example, the character cuts the target's

Normal Defenses in half

, but doesn't change his Resistant Defenses, leaving the target with

10 PD

/10 rPD against his attacks. In your second example, he reduces the target's Armor by half, but doesn't affect his Normal Defenses.

 

The character doesn't have to specify "Force Field," for example, he just specifies "Resistant Defenses" and if he succeeds he reduces the character's total applicable Resistant Defenses by half.

I think he answered your question based on the totals highlighted in blue instead of red.

 

As I stated earlier, the rule logic being used for Find Weakness is really describing special effect since that is about the only difference between an equivalent expenditure of total points between Armor and Damage Resistance. The rules for Find Weakness seem to consider Damage Resistance a modifier to normal defenses that does not change its status as a "normal" defense. This is a total departure from what we as players normaly think of when we hear "normal" and "resistant" defenses because we are applying the terms against type of defense would stop a Killing Attack which seems to have absolutely no relavence to Find Weakness rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

If you have a copy of Conquerors, Killers and Crooks you will notice that Durak has 30Pd/30Ed with Full Damage Resistance with hardened bought on the normal defenses as well as the Damage Resistance itself. He also has 5 points in Lack of Weakness for Normal Defenses.

 

Durak can safely handle something like a 3d6 RKA with x2 Armor Piercing without taking more than 3 points of BODY max. (Unless possible Hit Location or Critical Hit modifiers are used to double the initial damage before defenses.)

 

But, since he doesn't have Armor or a Force Field he does not need Resistant Lack of Weakness according to the rules as written. A Find Weakness attempt against Resistant defenses strangely does not apply to him in this case!

 

Seeing that made it click for me.

 

*edited stats for Durak to correct totals.

[zornwil]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I think Steve may have glanced through your example and misread part of it.

 

you asked:

 

and Steve answered:

 

I think he answered your question based on the totals highlighted in blue instead of red.

 

As I stated earlier, the rule logic being used for Find Weakness is really describing special effect since that is about the only difference between an equivalent expenditure of total points between Armor and Damage Resistance. The rules for Find Weakness seem to consider Damage Resistance a modifier to normal defenses that does not change its status as a "normal" defense. This is a total departure from what we as players normaly think of when we hear "normal" and "resistant" defenses because we are applying the terms against type of defense would stop a Killing Attack which seems to have absolutely no relavence to Find Weakness rules.

Sorry, now I must join the confused!

 

Steve stated that you target resistant or normal. Then you, Hyper-man, made a point of saying it's "natural" versus the added on resistant defenses (thus Damage Resistance is "natural"). Where did you get this, I have missed it somewhere? And besides, aren't you making a leap to saying it's SFX if Damage Resistance is the sole exception? Couldn't it be that Dam Res is an exception because otherwise you may never have a "regular" non-resistant PD then?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Sorry, now I must join the confused!

 

Steve stated that you target resistant or normal. Then you, Hyper-man, made a point of saying it's "natural" versus the added on resistant defenses (thus Damage Resistance is "natural"). Where did you get this, I have missed it somewhere? And besides, aren't you making a leap to saying it's SFX if Damage Resistance is the sole exception? Couldn't it be that Dam Res is an exception because otherwise you may never have a "regular" non-resistant PD then?

Take a look at Steve's earlier answer to a question from Zanthas:

 

Zanthas asked:

I successfully use Find Weakness targeting resistant defenses against a target with 4 PD (characteristic) and Armor: 10rPD and no other defenses.

 

 

 

1. His defenses become 4 PD and 5rPD, correct?
   
   
2. If my Find Weakness is with one attack only, that attack being a single non-killing attack such as Martial Strike, was it legal to target resistant defenses?
   
   
3. Assuming #1 & #2 are yes, then if I attack with my Martial Strike, I'm going up against 9 defense (4PD+5rPD)?
   
   
4. If I had targeted normal defenses instead, the target would have 2 PD and 10rPD against my attack, correct?
   
   
5. If #4 is yes, then in that situation my Martial Strike would be going up against 12 defense (2PD+10rPD) correct?
   
   

 

 

 

Steve answered:

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. Yes.

5. Yes.

Based on this if we switched Armor (or Force Field for that matter) from the original example question to an equivalent level of defense by use of Damage Resistance for the exact same expenditure of points we should be able to ask Steve the following:

 

If I successfully use Find Weakness targeting resistant defenses against a target with 14 PD (characteristic) and Damage Resistance 10 rPD (5 active points) and no other defenses *.

* For clarification, before Find Weakness, if attacked with a punch the target character normaly defends with 14PD, if attacked by a HKA he defends with 10rPD.

 

 

1. His defenses do not change! they are still 14 PD of which 10 points are resistant due to Damage Resistance?
   
2. It is still legal to target resistant defenses with Find Weakness but now this character does not have any according to the Find Weakness rules?
   
3. If I attack with a Martial Strike I am going up against 14 PD (10 of which just happens to be resistant via Damage Resistance to killing attacks)?
   
4. If I had targeted normal defenses instead, the target would now have 7 PD or 5 rPD against my attack, correct?
   
5. If #4 is yes, then in that situation my Martial Strike would be going up against 7 defense. A HKA would be going up against 5 defense?
   

and get the following answers:

(hypotheticaly of course, as I have no interest in asking Steve this questions )

1. yes
   
2. yes
   
3. yes
   
4. yes
   
5. yes
   

 

Still confused?

 

 

Trust me I am.

 

 

I was only offering a possible explanation with SFX, but I can not think of any other plausible reason that Damage Resistance would be treated so differently by Find Weakness compared to ALL the other powers which give the ability to reduce Killing Attack damage.

 

 

 

While we are on the subject of powers that potentially reduce target defenses take a look at another of Steve's answers to a related question on Armor Piercing vs. Hardened in this

LINK

.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

This is just wrong. That makes, like, three things now I totally disagree with Steve about now (I can't seem to remember the others, but suppose I can look at my house rules again). And even then, I'm not even certain of his ruling. I never really thought that Find Weakness was that difficult or complex.

 

I don't even know how to write this into my house rules! :sigh:

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Official Rules discussions asside...

 

I'd like to comment a little further on the original topic of this thread.

 

After consideration, now I might allow different characters to be built with either Find Weakness OR 6 or more penalty skill levels vs. Hit Location but I would definitely NOT allow the purchase of both for the same character.

 

The reasoning is based on the following:

 

No example character in any 5th edition suppliment that I have seen (I own 14 so far) has both. However, 2 members of UNITY (the official superteam from UNTIL: Defenders Of Freedom have an example of each with essentially the same special effect description (see earlier post to this thread for relavent details from each).

 

Several other game effect mechanics can be built with 2 or more different powers or manuevers that are usually NOT combined:

 

 

• Martial Choke Holds (NND) are considered a targeted attack to the neck but do not benefit from Hit location damage modifiers.
  
• Images can be used in place of Invisibility with the main difference that it can never be 100% reliable.
  
• Damage Reduction and Desolidification can be described in a similar manner.
  
• Entangle and Force Wall are often interchanged when used as a defensive barrier and both can also be used to simulate effects of Darkness.
  

Does anyone agree with this idea?

[zornwil]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

My head hurts!

[sbarron]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

No example character in any 5th edition suppliment that I have seen (I own 14 so far) has both. However' date=' 2 members of UNITY (the official superteam from [u']UNTIL: Defenders Of Freedom[/u] have an example of each with essentially the same special effect description (see earlier post to this thread for relavent details from each).

I have a feeling the Harbinger of Justice might have both. His 4th Ed versions had both FW and +4 OCV vs. Hit location mods. Has anyone seen the Dark Champions manuscript? My permissions have expired.

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I noticed a lot of people saying outright or implying (at least to me) that Armor and such grant both Normal and Resistant defense. This is completely untrue in 5th as far as I can tell. I reread Armor carefully and it provides only Resistant defense. It gives zero Normal defense. Now, Resistant defense applies against Normal Damage, but that is quite different from Armor providing both Normal and Resistant defenses. If it did, 10 points of armor would give 10PD/10rPD and therefor block 20 points of Normal Damage!

 

I'll be posting a question about Find Weakness and Damage Resistance (the power) to get a clarification, since my understanding is Resistant Defense is Resistant Defense when using Find Weakness, whether it comes from Armor, Force Field, or through Damage Resistance bought to convert characteristic Normal Defenses into Resistant Defenses.

 

Guess we'll see .

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Hyper-Man: I disagree with your first rule. Because nobody published has it is a really crappy reason for not allowing something. I've never seen anyone published with Restrainable Armor, but I'd allow it in my game. If for some reason, whatever with both was somehow unbalanced, and dropping one of those would solve that problem, then that's the story. But I wouldn't outlaw it just 'cuz.

 

The rest of your ideas there are completely sound and I agree completely. But remember, don't allow sectional LoW. You know why.

[zornwil]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I have a feeling the Harbinger of Justice might have both. His 4th Ed versions had both FW and +4 OCV vs. Hit location mods. Has anyone seen the Dark Champions manuscript? My permissions have expired.

It would be inappropriate to comment on the playtest, sorry.

[zornwil]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Hyper-Man: I disagree with your first rule. Because nobody published has it is a really crappy reason for not allowing something. I've never seen anyone published with Restrainable Armor, but I'd allow it in my game. If for some reason, whatever with both was somehow unbalanced, and dropping one of those would solve that problem, then that's the story. But I wouldn't outlaw it just 'cuz.

 

The rest of your ideas there are completely sound and I agree completely. But remember, don't allow sectional LoW. You know why.

But what about sectional LoW with sectionally-defined armor?

[zornwil]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I noticed a lot of people saying outright or implying (at least to me) that Armor and such grant both Normal and Resistant defense. This is completely untrue in 5th as far as I can tell. I reread Armor carefully and it provides only Resistant defense. It gives zero Normal defense. Now, Resistant defense applies against Normal Damage, but that is quite different from Armor providing both Normal and Resistant defenses. If it did, 10 points of armor would give 10PD/10rPD and therefor block 20 points of Normal Damage!

 

I'll be posting a question about Find Weakness and Damage Resistance (the power) to get a clarification, since my understanding is Resistant Defense is Resistant Defense when using Find Weakness, whether it comes from Armor, Force Field, or through Damage Resistance bought to convert characteristic Normal Defenses into Resistant Defenses.

 

Guess we'll see .

You got a "RTFM" response (though in this case replace "M"/manual with FAQ), perhaps my follow-up question will elicit a clearer response - or perhaps I'll get the same answer!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

I noticed a lot of people saying outright or implying (at least to me) that Armor and such grant both Normal and Resistant defense. This is completely untrue in 5th as far as I can tell. I reread Armor carefully and it provides only Resistant defense. It gives zero Normal defense. Now, Resistant defense applies against Normal Damage, but that is quite different from Armor providing both Normal and Resistant defenses. If it did, 10 points of armor would give 10PD/10rPD and therefor block 20 points of Normal Damage!

 

I'll be posting a question about Find Weakness and Damage Resistance (the power) to get a clarification, since my understanding is Resistant Defense is Resistant Defense when using Find Weakness, whether it comes from Armor, Force Field, or through Damage Resistance bought to convert characteristic Normal Defenses into Resistant Defenses.

 

Guess we'll see .

I think we are all getting getting confused by the abmiguous word choices used in the rules.

 

Let's make a detailed analysis of the effects of Armor Piercing vs. Damage Resistance Man (DRMan) and Armor Man (AMan) (and later the effects of Find Weakness from their buddy Find Weakness Man FWMan). These are all assuming NO Hardened defenses or Lack of Weakness.

 

DRMan

has 20 points of normal PD

(and pays at least

15

real points to raise it to 20)

DRMan has 10 points of rPD

Damage Resistance

(and pays

5

real points for it)

Total points spent

on Physical Defeneses

normal and resistant

=

20

 

AMan

has 10 points of normal PD

(and paid at least

5

real points to raise it to 10)

ARman

has 10 points of rPD

Armor

(and pays

15

real points for it)

Total points spent

on Physical Defeneses

normal and resistant

=

20

If

either

character is hit with an Armor Piercing Normal Damage Attack (Punch, Martial Strike, etc.) they would get to apply a Grand Total of 10 defense against the damage.

If

either

character is hit with an Armor Peircing Killing Attack (Bullet, Axe etc..) they would get to apply a Grand Total of 5 defense against the damage.

However, if Find Weakness Man (FWMan) makes 1 level of Find Weakness roll vs. "normal" defenses against each we see the following results:

 

DRMan's

normal

defense of 20 is now halved to 10 PD AND his

Damage Resistance

of 5 active points is halved too! so he now has a grand total of 10 defense to apply vs. a Normal Damage Attack (Punch) and has

5 rPD

to apply vs. a Killing Attack (Bullet).

 

ARMan's

normal

defense of 10 PD is halved to 5 PD but his

Armor

of 10 rPD is unaffected. so he has a grand totoal of 15 defense to apply vs. a Normal Damage Attack (Punch) but still has

10 rPD

to apply vs. a Killing Attack (Bullet).

confused yet? wait, there's more!

 

If FWMan instead chooses to target "resistant" defenses against each target we see the following results:

 

DRMan's

normal

defense of 20 PD is unaffected as well as his 5 active points of

Damage resistance

. so he now has a grand total of 20 defense to apply vs. a Normal Damage Attack (Punch) and has

10 rP

to apply vs. a Killing Attack (Bullet).

 

ARMan's

normal

defense of 10 PD is unaffected but his

Armor

of 10 rPD is halved to 5 rPD. so he has a grand total of 15 defense to apply vs. a Normal Damage Attack (Punch) but only has

5 rPD

to apply vs. a Killing Attack (Bullet).

The really fun part is that we have not even begun to combine any of the other fun details into the mix like Hardened defenses and Lack of Weakness which must be declared to affect normal or resistant defenses but we see those very words mean very different things vs. each different effect. We also have not considered combining the effects of both. FWMan could easily have a gun with Armor Piercing Bullets for example. We also have not considered any extra Find Weakness attempts as well.

 

Does anyone see a flaw in my interpretation of the rules in the above example? If so please speak up.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Now, back to the Find Weakness vs. Hit Location discussion at least indirectly...

 

a soon to be published sourcebook has the following example of equipment for an NPC:

body armor (DEF 8 on a 14- Activation Roll, plus polyethylene plates providing +3 DEF on Hit Locations 10-11 [including the sides])

 

face shield (DEF 3, only protects Location 4 from the front)

My question to the board is this. How do I resolve a hit to this character?

 

Say I have +8 levels vs. Hit Location and choose to attack the NPC on location 3.

 

Does he get to roll his Activation Roll for his base 8 DEF body armor?? Does this mean that the 8 defense with Activate 14- can potentially cover ANY location on his body including his HEAD? What special effect of focus can explain that? Anyway, I thought that activate rolls were supposed to be converted to an equivalent level of sectional coverage if Hit Location Rules were in effect.

 

Think about being the GM for a combat involving the above NPC. If he gets hit you not only have to make an activate roll, you also have to make a Hit Location roll EVERY TIME!

 

Holy Rusty Metal Batman!

Good Grief Charlie Brown!

That just seems crazy to me!

 

Anyone else confused by this example too?

 

btw, I reached my birth month and year on this post: Novemeber 67' !!

 

 

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Steve's answer to my most recent FWeakness question was "Answered in the FAQ" and after rereading the FAQ carefully (search for "counterpart" and see point #1) I determined he is quite correct. The FAQ does answer this question, and despite the fact that I must have read it at least five separate times I kept missing it. When it comes to what Find Weakness can target you have:

• Normal: PD and ED (the characterists), whether or not they've got Damage Resistance making some or all of it Resistant Defense
  
• Resistant: Armor, Force Field and maybe Force Wall
  
• Special: Power, Mental or Flash Defense (Only ONE targetted at a time)
  

Seems slighty odd to work it this way, but it does keep people from always going after Resistant defenses with Find Weakness because the character could reasonably have very high Normal defenses too.

 

It did make me wonder if you can Find Weakness on an Entangle holding you to make it easier to escape. The power itself doesn't say you can't target objects, but the FAQ does mention you can't use it to lower the DEF of the ground you're tunneling through.

 

Further, Force Wall is another weird one. Not sure whether it should be Find Weaknessed separately from a character's personal defenses. I'm inclined to say yes since it acts more like an object created by a character than a personal affecting power.

 

And lastly, why is weird spelled so weird. I keep typing it wrong and not noticing, or typing it right and thinking I did it wrong.

[Zanthis]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Your very colorful post's analysis is right on Hyper-Man. I don't think the LoW is too complicated by itself. DRMan would want his LoW to defend his Normal defenses, while ARMan is a bit out of luck and would either need to go for Resistant defenses for his LoW or split up his LoW points and defended Normal and Resistant defenses both (each about half as well). This is actually the reason I think Steve did it this way. It makes both targets (Normal and Resistant) attractive to people using Find Weakness.

 

As to your second post Hyper-Man, I think without knowing how the body armor is built powerwise a little better, I can't answer it. But I'll try . We can ignore the face shield straight off. Next, the armor. It's body armor, and that could include a helmet. If you do an internet search on body armor you'll see plenty of modern "body armors" with helmets.

 

Now, if the +3 DEF is Linked to the body armor, then the activation roll must be made before it can be applied, even if locations 10 or 11 are hit. If the +3 DEF isn't Linked but just part of the same OIF then it'll apply regardless of the activation roll on the 8 DEF, provided locations 10 or 11 are hit.

 

As to Hit Locations and Activation rolls meant to simulate "coverage", I'd say they can work together. Consider a woman wearing a chain mail bikini. Sure, it covers the chest, but not 100%, and so it might warrent an activation roll in additional to the sectional coverage. Covering a body location and covering it such that every attack to that location is blocked are too different things. It's just most people don't need that much detail in their games .

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

But what about sectional LoW with sectionally-defined armor?

As I said before, while LoW is a Defense Power, it's not an actuall defense and is not designed to be used as a sectional defense. It either affects the entire character or not at all. It could have an Activation, but the roll is made when the Find Weakness is used, not the attack lands as with sectional defenses.

 

Besides, its technically illegal, from how I understand it now, to limit LoW in that fassion. If it's for you resistant defenses, it's already limited to affecting your Armor and nothing else (unless maybe you also have a FF, but big deal).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

Your very colorful post's analysis is right on Hyper-Man. I don't think the LoW is too complicated by itself. DRMan would want his LoW to defend his Normal defenses, while ARMan is a bit out of luck and would either need to go for Resistant defenses for his LoW or split up his LoW points and defended Normal and Resistant defenses both (each about half as well). This is actually the reason I think Steve did it this way. It makes both targets (Normal and Resistant) attractive to people using Find Weakness.

 

As to your second post Hyper-Man, I think without knowing how the body armor is built powerwise a little better, I can't answer it. But I'll try . We can ignore the face shield straight off. Next, the armor. It's body armor, and that could include a helmet. If you do an internet search on body armor you'll see plenty of modern "body armors" with helmets.

 

Now, if the +3 DEF is Linked to the body armor, then the activation roll must be made before it can be applied, even if locations 10 or 11 are hit. If the +3 DEF isn't Linked but just part of the same OIF then it'll apply regardless of the activation roll on the 8 DEF, provided locations 10 or 11 are hit.

 

As to Hit Locations and Activation rolls meant to simulate "coverage", I'd say they can work together. Consider a woman wearing a chain mail bikini. Sure, it covers the chest, but not 100%, and so it might warrent an activation roll in additional to the sectional coverage. Covering a body location and covering it such that every attack to that location is blocked are too different things. It's just most people don't need that much detail in their games .

So if I make a called shot at a hit location on her Head, she has a XX- roll to see if she has a wardrobe malfunction and the chainmail is suddenly covering her face?

 

Your explanation fits the game mechanics as written but they do not make sense to actually describe what is taking place.

 

To better illustrate let's go back to my previous example .

 

Let's try to make the case that the 14- Activate roll on the 8 defenses of this armor actually does have a chance of protecting ANY hit location (including the Head) on the wearers body.

 

What is the special effect of this?

 

Does the character potentialy block shots to the head or other uncovered locations with other armored parts of his body like his arm (with no maneuver or 'effort' required by the character)?

 

Or better yet, Is the character wearing a Head-to-Toe skin-tight body suit like Spider-Man except that it is made of

Schrodinger's Quantum Ballistic Thread

which is made from a special breed of cat developed and named after Schrodinger himself. These cats and the gut harvested from them is both

there

and

not there

until you make the attempt to cut it. This complicates the manufacture process greatly but we have increased the efficiency of the manufacturing process to allow for a market friendly pricing structure for our customers. For more information on the properties of our armor follow these links:

LINK1

and

LINK2

(BTW, I have no problem for this kind of special effect for a Force Field or personal power of Damage Resistance but it makes no sense for a physical object worn by a character in a game setting that is supposed to be more realistic than a 4 color Champions game.)

[Dust Raven]

Epiphany

 

I just re read the Find Weakness in FREd, and read the entirety of FAQ entries for it as well. All I can tell is that the FAQ seems to make actual rules changes, rather than clarification.

 

The book just says Find Weakness halves the targets defenses. It doesn't say anything about limiting it to a specific characteristic or power for each time you use it, just says "target's appropriate defenses by half." To me, this means any defense which applies to any attack the Find Weakness applies to. That's implied in the seond paragraph, which details how much it costs to use it with what attacks.

 

Then the FAQ has this entry:

Q: When a character uses Find Weakness, does he halve all of the target’s defenses, or just specific ones?

 

A: Find Weakness works similarly to its counterpart, Lack Of Weakness. When a character decides to Find Weakness, he must choose which of these types of defenses he wants to Find Weakness in:

 

1. The target’s Normal Defenses (PD or ED, including Damage Resistance).

 

2. The target’s Resistant Defenses (such as Armor or Force Field). However, Find Weakness has no effect on Damage Reduction unless the GM specifically permits this.

 

3. At the GM’s discretion, any one of the target’s exotic defenses (such as Mental Defense and Power Defense). Generally speaking, most special effects of Find Weakness probably have no effect whatsoever on Flash, Mental, or Power Defense (a -0 Limitation); if a character wants to affect those defenses, typically he should buy Find Weakness with the Does Not Apply Against Certain Types Of Defenses Limitation to make it only apply against that one type of exotic defense.

 

The character can switch what he wants to apply his Find Weakness to from Phase to Phase. For example, one Phase he could Find Weakness in the target’s Resistant Defenses; the next he could Find Weakness in the same target’s Normal Defenses. But he can only locate the weaknesses in one type of defenses at a time.

 

Even if the character switches from defense type to defense type, the standard -2 per additional roll penalty applies. So, for example, if a character Finds Weakness twice in a target’s Resistant Defenses, and then wants to halve his Normal Defenses, the roll for halving the Normal Defenses would be at -4 (since it’s the third Find Weakness roll made against the target).

 

As always, you should take into account special effects, common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance. There may be situations where the GM’s willing to expand the effects of Find Weakness a little, or times when he considers it necessary to reduce them.

Now, this certainly goes a long way to defining a difference between Normal Defense and Resistant Defense. The proof, however, is right in FREd on page 273 under Taking Damage. It clearly states they are different, and applied differently agaisnt damage. The description of the Powers themselves specifically state that the defense is Resistant (or Normal), rather than stating it provides Resistant (or Normal) Defenses.

 

Well, whaddya know, I leaned something new. Now how do I break this news to the player of the ninja in my game that he really wouldn't have nearly killed the team's brick in training...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

As I said before, while LoW is a Defense Power, it's not an actuall defense and is not designed to be used as a sectional defense. It either affects the entire character or not at all. It could have an Activation, but the roll is made when the Find Weakness is used, not the attack lands as with sectional defenses.

 

Besides, its technically illegal, from how I understand it now, to limit LoW in that fassion. If it's for you resistant defenses, it's already limited to affecting your Armor and nothing else (unless maybe you also have a FF, but big deal).

I agree with your assessment of the broken aspect of sectional LoW but there is nothing in the rules that forbids it as a build. It is a missing piece of the rules as written.

 

If I can make Find Weakness as part of a focus [which seems reasonable since I see no reason to not allow a Find Weakness analyser built as part of a device] I should be able to link LoW to the Armor Power built into the same focus. The LoW is not magical and therefore should not give any bonus to parts of my body not covered by the Armor.

 

This subject has been debated already but much precedence exists in the rules to allow me to define the special effect of my power. I think that disallowing this is also a house rule (an absolutely necessary one based on my earlier proof) but not one written into the rules as written.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

DRMan

has 20 points of normal PD

(and pays at least

15

real points to raise it to 20)

DRMan has 10 points of rPD

Damage Resistance

(and pays

5

real points for it)

Total points spent

on Physical Defeneses

normal and resistant

=

20

AMan

has 10 points of normal PD

(and paid at least

5

real points to raise it to 10)

ARman

has 10 points of rPD

Armor

(and pays

15

real points for it)

Total points spent

on Physical Defeneses

normal and resistant

=

20

First, you should not be looking at

cost

, but at

value

. The value of 20 PD and 10 rPD is 25 in both examples.

If

either

character is hit with an Armor Piercing Normal Damage Attack (Punch, Martial Strike, etc.) they would get to apply a Grand Total of 10 defense against the damage.

If

either

character is hit with an Armor Peircing Killing Attack (Bullet, Axe etc..) they would get to apply a Grand Total of 5 defense against the damage.

All true.

However, if Find Weakness Man (FWMan) makes 1 level of Find Weakness roll vs. "normal" defenses against each we see the following results:

 

DRMan's

normal

defense of 20 is now halved to 10 PD AND his

Damage Resistance

of 5 active points is halved too! so he now has a grand total of 10 defense to apply vs. a Normal Damage Attack (Punch) and has

5 rPD

to apply vs. a Killing Attack (Bullet).

Yup.

ARMan's

normal

defense of 10 PD is halved to 5 PD but his

Armor

of 10 rPD is unaffected. so he has a grand totoal of 15 defense to apply vs. a Normal Damage Attack (Punch) but still has

10 rPD

to apply vs. a Killing Attack (Bullet).

Yup.

confused yet? wait, there's more!

Nope. Not now anyway.

If FWMan instead chooses to target "resistant" defenses against each target we see the following results:

 

DRMan's

normal

defense of 20 PD is unaffected as well as his 5 active points of

Damage resistance

. so he now has a grand total of 20 defense to apply vs. a Normal Damage Attack (Punch) and has

10 rP

to apply vs. a Killing Attack (Bullet).

 

ARMan's

normal

defense of 10 PD is unaffected but his

Armor

of 10 rPD is halved to 5 rPD. so he has a grand total of 15 defense to apply vs. a Normal Damage Attack (Punch) but only has

5 rPD

to apply vs. a Killing Attack (Bullet).

You got it!

The really fun part is that we have not even begun to combine any of the other fun details into the mix like Hardened defenses and Lack of Weakness which must be declared to affect normal or resistant defenses but we see those very words mean very different things vs. each different effect. We also have not considered combining the effects of both. FWMan could easily have a gun with Armor Piercing Bullets for example. We also have not considered any extra Find Weakness attempts as well.

 

Does anyone see a flaw in my interpretation of the rules in the above example? If so please speak up.

No flaw. In fact, it makes perfect sense to me. On the one hand, DRMan's defense is either fully affected or not affect at all, while ARMan's defense is half affected in either case. Ultimately it's a fair trade. And with your AP examles, it affect each equally and identically.

 

And I'm certain that adding Hardened defenses and/or Lack Of Weakness will make the calculations more complex, but I don't think it will be too unfair or unbalanced. But at least I understand this now.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Do you allow Find Weakness in games using Hit Locations?

 

If I can make Find Weakness as part of a focus [which seems reasonable since I see no reason to not allow a Find Weakness analyser built as part of a device] I should be able to link LoW to the Armor Power built into the same focus. The LoW is not magical and therefore should not give any bonus to parts of my body not covered by the Armor.

Oh, yes. Absolutely there should be a way to build such a thing, but there are no (official) rules for it. The best you can do is use a house rule, or use one of my suggestions for a "retroactive" application of LoW to determine if it applies.

 

Of course, if the target doesn't have any other Resistant Defense other than the Armor, the point is moot. You can't put a Limitation on the LoW, because it can only apply to the Armor. Even if he does have more than one type of Resistant Defense, you can just apply your -1 Lim of Only For Armor, and you've got it. You can't make it sectional or with an Activation roll, or even Linked, because those Limitations don't really limit the Power.