OCV bonus or extra roll?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

let's experiment a little...

 

we have twin marksmen:

Tweedledee armed with a generic automatic rifle set to single shot mode.

Tweedledum armed with the same generic automatic rifle now set to 10 round burst mode.

 

both fire aimed (set and braced) shots a the same target from the same range with exactly the same skill.

 

Tweedledee rolls exactly what he needs to hit the target and hits it once.

Tweedledum rolls exactly the same as his twin Tweedledee and hits the target how many times?

 

IF we use the +4 OCV for 10 round burst logic, he gets an extra 2 hits irregardless of whether the gun's full auto is gas/recoil operated.

 

this appears to be reasonable since it can be argued that the recoil from the first shot does not affect the next couple of shots.

 

But, what if the the twins are just short of being on target with their "first shot". Tweedledum still hits!! If the argument is that the recoil isn't affecting subsequent shots what is it that puts his 2nd and 3rd shots on target? random chance? This doesn't make sense. (having an additional +4 OCV due to the suggested 5 point Autofire skill does though.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

let's experiment a little...

 

we have twin marksmen:

Tweedledee armed with a generic automatic rifle set to single shot mode.

Tweedledum armed with the same generic automatic rifle now set to 10 round burst mode.

 

both fire aimed (set and braced) shots a the same target from the same range with exactly the same skill.

 

Tweedledee rolls exactly what he needs to hit the target and hits it once.

Tweedledum rolls exactly the same as his twin Tweedledee and hits the target how many times?

 

IF we use the +4 OCV for 10 round burst logic, he gets an extra 2 hits irregardless of whether the gun's full auto is gas/recoil operated.

 

this appears to be reasonable since it can be argued that the recoil from the first shot does not affect the next couple of shots.

 

But, what if the the twins are just short of being on target with their "first shot". Tweedledum still hits!! If the argument is that the recoil isn't affecting subsequent shots what is it that puts his 2nd and 3rd shots on target? random chance? This doesn't make sense. (having an additional +4 OCV due to the suggested 5 point Autofire skill does though.)

This is why I came up with the Tracking Autofire Skill (thanks for posting it btw!).

 

The way I see it, the only thing the Advantage Autofire does is allow you to fire more shots. Making a weapon more accurate is a completely different, and unrelated mechanic. Certainly there are numerous examples of real world weapons that increase the chance of landing a round or two by throwing more than one round at the target, but such a weapon would be bought with both Autofire and CSLs. Alternately, you can use the Tracking Autofire Skill to simulate a combatant actually skilled in putting those extra rounds closer to his target. Unfortunately, the Skill isn't official, and you only have my word that it's balanced and works.

[BNakagawa]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

let's experiment a little...

 

we have twin marksmen:

Tweedledee armed with a generic automatic rifle set to single shot mode.

Tweedledum armed with the same generic automatic rifle now set to 10 round burst mode.

 

both fire aimed (set and braced) shots a the same target from the same range with exactly the same skill.

 

Tweedledee rolls exactly what he needs to hit the target and hits it once.

Tweedledum rolls exactly the same as his twin Tweedledee and hits the target how many times?

 

IF we use the +4 OCV for 10 round burst logic, he gets an extra 2 hits irregardless of whether the gun's full auto is gas/recoil operated.

 

this appears to be reasonable since it can be argued that the recoil from the first shot does not affect the next couple of shots.

 

But, what if the the twins are just short of being on target with their "first shot". Tweedledum still hits!! If the argument is that the recoil isn't affecting subsequent shots what is it that puts his 2nd and 3rd shots on target? random chance? This doesn't make sense. (having an additional +4 OCV due to the suggested 5 point Autofire skill does though.)

 

You forget that in the old rules, autofire attacks had increased range penalties.

[Dust Raven]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

You forget that in the old rules' date=' autofire attacks had increased range penalties.[/quote']

And those rules made great machine guns.

 

And very poor energy pulse cannons.

[BNakagawa]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

And those rules made great machine guns.

 

And very poor energy pulse cannons.

 

Oh. Had a lot of experience firing energy pulse cannons?

[Toadmaster]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

please read the rest of my post.

 

User skill is the only way to take advantage higher rates of fire to increase the odds of "a" hit. A gun's rate of fire by itself cannot accomplish this with out feedback signals from the operator of the gun. Giving a flat bonus of +4 in effect is changing the equivalent of a 5 point autofire skill to an "everyman" skill.

 

I'd disagree with that and 40 years of government funded research supports me. Beginning in the late 1950's the military has been studying the concept of multiple projectile bullets, short bursts etc to improve the chances of a hit. The idea is that no two bullets will follow the exact same path, even from a bench rest some of the best rifles made will still deviate approximately 1" at 100 yards, more common for military grade rifles is 2-3" and that is from a fully braced mount that allows no movement from shot to shot.

 

The same goes for aircraft weapon design, during WW2 it was found that many aircraft weapons had a rate of fire to slow to get more than a couple of rounds on target before the target moved, the Germans led the way with a number of revolver cannons (1 barrel several chambers), these led to the 1950's 30mm DEFA and 30mm ADEN cannons used by the British and French, the US picked up the idea of the old Gatling gun with the 20mm Vulcan, the Soviets came up with several two barrel cannons. All of these weapons raised the rate of fire from less than 1000 rounds per minute to rates up to 8000 rounds per minute. The idea is to fill the target area with metal greatly increasing the chance of a hit.

 

 

And yes, I was only asking about the odds, I want to make sure that a 16 round burst (2 rolls at +2) is roughly equal with a 15 round burst (1 roll at +4). Again I'm looking for a way to make the super high rates of fire effective without being automatic hits.

 

 

If people want to discuss the merits of one method of autofire vs another that is fine, I'm perfectly happy participating in a gun thread but as I said before I like the original autofire rules better than the ones introduced in 4th ed. I've used them since the early 1980's, I like them and I'm not particularly interested in changing them completely (just minotr adjustments). While I can see where the area effect concept comes in and why some people like that idea, but I don't care for it, it just doesn't "feel" like autofire, it is more like a shotgun or cannister round.

I do like the autofire skills added in 5th ed. but they don't deal with the weapon so much as more effective ways to use them and primarily of use against multiple targets.

 

Also this rule "change" is not in a vacuum, I am also working on recoil effects, strmin, range etc but that was not part of my question so I didn't include detail on them.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Ok, if argueing within the 'gun' special effect does not convince you what about a laser cannon or a Champion's superhero with a natural attack power with Autofire? All of the military balistic evidence you provided only supports the 'gun' special effect.

 

I am not saying that high-er rate of fire would not give an opportunity for a high-er number of hits. What I am saying is that the higher rate should not contribute to that opportunity by itself.

 

One way to seperate the rate of fire from the OCV bonus is as follows:

Autofire only gives extra 'chances' based on the following:

bursts up to 5 hit at rate of 1 per extra 2 OCV

bursts up to 10 hit at rate of 1 per extra 1 OCV

bursts up to 20 hit at rate of 2 per extra 1 OCV

Any specific bonus attached to an autofire attack such as "random spread or any gun like characteristic" such should be bought as seperate CSL's for that attack.

 

Yes, this would require an additional OCV modifier column to be added to the 'real weaopns' list in FREd for accuracy if you want to differentiate a weapon on single shot from full auto.

 

Otherwise you are basically making Autofire an increadible bargain for superheroes to build something like an NND attack with Autofire which will do more damage on average than a non-autofire atack because of the OCV bonuses.

[Dust Raven]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Oh. Had a lot of experience firing energy pulse cannons?

Just as much, if not more, than I've had with machine guns .

 

But honestly, the physics are obviosly different between the two. In game terms, they sould be build differently. If Autofire was built exclusively for one and not the other, how would the other ever be built?

[Toadmaster]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Hmmm, somehow I missed quite a few posts before replying last time.

 

 

One item is range, someone mentioned the effect on range in the old system and yes, I am dealing with it in a similar way, since Rmod is not done the -1 per x" anymore instead of 1/2 Rmod, I'm doubling the effective range of the target (so if my target is 10" away, I treat it like its 20") bullet dispersion can be good at close range to allow the deviation being credited for the bonus (the OCV increase) but at longer ranges the spread just takes bullets out of play (being 8" up and to the right when your point of aim was a little low to the left helps, being 4' high so the bullets sail overhead isn't.

 

 

Aha, I think I found part of the communications breakdown, some of you don't realize that this is being developed just for small arms and auto-cannons etc in modern heroic games. I am not using it for 40 watt phased plasma rifles, lasers, or giant marshmellow guns. It may be that it works great for those too but I don't know, I haven't given it any thought. Also in theory it is bought as part of the weapon (OCV only during autofire) but since I only play heroic level games nobody pays for equipment so I don't really care where the points are coming from, anybody picking up the gun gets the advantage so its fair as far as I'm concerned. In a supers game (on the off chance I play in one) I would make somebody pay for the points, that is a play balance issue not "reality" (loosely termed).

 

For a continuous beam laser I might make it area effect, it is one long beam cutting across the hex unlike many small blips crossing here and there, that theoretically at least someone could be lucky enough to avoid.

 

The AF tracking skill also is an interesting idea

 

 

Thanks again for the comments, even many of those not directly related to my question are useful to tuck away for handling special effects for other weapons.

[Dust Raven]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Aha' date=' I think I found part of the communications breakdown, some of you don't realize that this is being developed just for small arms and auto-cannons etc in modern heroic games. I am not using it for 40 watt phased plasma rifles, lasers, or giant marshmellow guns. It may be that it works great for those too but I don't know, I haven't given it any thought. Also in theory it is bought as part of the weapon (OCV only during autofire) but since I only play heroic level games nobody pays for equipment so I don't really care where the points are coming from, anybody picking up the gun gets the advantage so its fair as far as I'm concerned. In a supers game (on the off chance I play in one) I would make somebody pay for the points, that is a play balance issue not "reality" (loosely termed).[/quote']

Ooh... specific examples...

 

Would I be correct is assuming by "heroic games" you mean "characters don't pay points for equipment"? If so, you are free to rule that machine guns work any way you like. If you'd just like a rule that helps you work out the game stats though...

 

I'd recomend that instead of changing the current AF rule, that you just incorperate something additional into the Focus.

 

Sprayfire: +2/4 OCV with Weapon (10/20 active points), OAF (-1), Only When Using Autofire (+1 with less than 5, +2 with 5 or more, +4 with 10+, -1/2), Side Effect (weapon suffers double RMods, -1/2), Total Cost: 3/7

 

This would be a very cheap add on to any weapon you might use. Depending on your own preferences, you can further reduce the cost (but not by much) by adding on the other "heroic level" weapon Limitation (Real Weapon, STR Min, etc.).

 

Keep in mind that if you combine this with the Tracking Autofire Skill you'll get one hell of an accurate machine gunner. I'm not sure if this is statistically unrealistic. I forget the actual numbers, but ratio of rounds fired to rounds striking targets (any non-friendly) while using automatic fire as been very, very low every since the invention of the weapon. Now, technically, that's because the soldiers using them simply sprayed an area, hoping that one or two of their 40+ rounds fired would hit something that might shoot back. Things like Tracking Autofire would be pretty rare.

[Toadmaster]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Yep, that is exactly what I mean about Heroic level games, no paying points for equipment.

 

That looks about right for writing it up, I don't worry about points when writing up equipment for the most part but do like to stay somewhat close to the rules so usually write up something, for example I also use the older fragmentation rules (normal explosion + af rka) so in theory a grenade is built as an automaton with eb explosion + ae af rka, skill roll required (based on the grenades skill) not quite how I really play it but close enough to show respect to the existing rules to make the changes "GM interpretation".

 

Since I will be using some form of recoil (haven't got that ironed out just yet) Tracking won't really be a problem except for solidly mounted weapons, or .22 caliber smg's (American 180) everyone else will have way to many recoil penalties to get much help from Tracking, this should also make MG's something to be feared as they should be (usually they are just smg's with big magazines).

 

 

Sorry if I seemed short with anybody, I forget that even many long time HERO players started with 4th ed (1989?) so see the earlier rules as the changes.

 

Thanks for the help.