OCV bonus or extra roll?

[Toadmaster]

Ok, I thought perhaps some of the Math and odds gurus might help me here.

 

I've been trying to gather the various house rules we've used for "realistic" modern genres and doing a little "cleaning up" along the way (tweaking to fix munchkin holes). One of the things we've done since 4th ed came out was to keep the old autofire rules from 3rd (+4 OCV for an autofire attack), we modified it a bit, +1 for 3 rds, +2 for 5 rounds, +4 for 10 rounds and +2 for each additional 5 rounds. Now it was pointed out in another thread that allowing OCV bonus' beyond +4 was quickly becoming automatic hits (and maybe lots of them), another thread suggested breaking large autofires into multiple rolls. So taking both of these ideas and having burst greater than 15 rounds divide up into smaller bursts each getting a roll, so a burst up to 15 gets +4 to hit, a burst of 16 would be two rolls with +2 OCV each (only 8 round bursts), a 30 round burst would be 3 rolls of 10 (+4 OCV each).

 

So my question is how does an extra roll change the odds, which would you take (going strictly on odds, not I like to roll lots of dice) 1 roll at +4 for a 15 round burst or 2 rolls at +2 OCV?

 

Does it make sense to allow multiple rolls for long bursts or is it better to leave it as one roll with a big bonus to hit? Keep in mind its autofire so each 2 the roll is made by is another hit.

I think I like the multiple rolls myself but I'm not sure how it changes the balance, sure more chances to get a good roll but also more chances to roll a misfire.

 

Thanks

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Just something to think about. The first shot in an autofire burst is no more likely to hit than a single shot from a non-autofire burst. Each subsequent shot is -2 less likely to hit after that.

 

I'm just sayin'.

[Toadmaster]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Just something to think about. The first shot in an autofire burst is no more likely to hit than a single shot from a non-autofire burst. Each subsequent shot is -2 less likely to hit after that.

 

I'm just sayin'.

 

Not quite sure I understand what you mean, if you are saying you are no more likely to hit a target with multiple rounds fired than just one, I disagree. That has been the point of small arms design since WW2, send more lead thataway you are bound to hit something. That is also the concept behind weapons like the Vulcan, 8000 rounds per minute has to hit something. Sure the first round might not hit but perhaps the second or third round which are slightly off "target" do hit since your aim was actually a little wonky to begin with.

 

Or did you maen something else?

[BNakagawa]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Assuming you don't get an OCV bonus for autofire bursts, then his point is valid.

 

You'll never have a higher ocv than with your first shot, whether it's the first of five, the first of ten or the first and last.

 

There's a difference between hitting 'something' and what you're aiming at.

 

On the subject of the thread, there's no telling which is more advantageous unless you know the OCV and DCV in question.

 

A high OCV vs a low DCV is going to benefit from split rolls.

 

A low OCV vs a high DCV is going to benefit from higher bonuses and a single roll.

[Jhamin]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

I think people may be misunderstanding what Toadmaster is asking. (with apologies to BKnaka)

 

The way I am reading this, he has looked at the existing autofire rules and decided he doesn't like them. He is thinking of imposing new rules in their place and needs math help to decide which one.

 

a) give a bonus to OCV depending on how many shots are fired. The reasoning being that you are more likely to hit with all that lead flying around.

 

or

 

rolling several attacks based on a formula that looks at how many shots you are firing. If you shoot more bullets you have more hits to roll and a better chance that one will succeed.

[Jarekk]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

In Battletech, we used to troll for every 5 LRMs, and every 2 SRMs.

 

How about a new roll for every 3 bullets, -1 ocv per shot. (-1 for the second roll, -2 for the third, etc)

 

That's my thought--but, I'm new to this, so... ::shrug:: (%)

[Toadmaster]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

There seems to be some confusion, I'm not sure why. It might be me but this is what I'm seeing

 

Q: which is better Ford or Chevy

A: watermelon

 

So let me try again, in older versions of HERO autofire attacks got a +4 OCV, and 1/2 the range modifier (shortend the weapons range) and +5 to the Strmin, +1 hit for each two the roll succeded by etc. Later this was modified to provide a +1 OCV for 3 round bursts. We took this idea and applied it to 4th ed and extrapolated +2 for 5 rounds and +2 for every additional 5 rounds, so you would have a table like this

 

3 rd burst +1 OCV

5 rd burst +2 OCV

10 rd burst +4 OCV

15 rd burst +6 OCV

20 round burst +8 OCV

 

so you see above 10 rd you start getting a high probability of an automatic hit, likely many (+1 hit for each 2 the roll was made by) which doesn't seem right either. Assuming CV's are equal so the base to hit is an 11 or less (+6) 15 round burst (say a Mac-10 smg) a 15 will result in 2 hits, a good roll say a 9 would result in 5 hits.

 

Obviously this starts to look funny, so my thought was break it up, leave a 10-15 round burst at +4 (as per the original rules) but since this heavily penalizes weapons with high rates of fire (so why would the military develop weapons like the vulcan if there is no better chance to hit, and yes that is exactly why they developed the vulcan to hit jets because regular machineguns didn't shoot fast enough to hit with more than a couple of bullets). So instead of continually adding bonuses or penalizing weapons instead break long bursts into several smaller attacks (of approximately 10 rounds). So instead of a 16 round burst getting +6 it would get 2 rolls at +2 each (two 8 round bursts).

 

Now the question is are the odds better for two rolls with +2 OCV (two 8 round bursts) or one at +4 OCV (one 15 round burst), it wouldn't do to have the smaller burst (15 rounds) have better odds than the larger burst (16 rounds (2x 8)). I also like the idea of multiple rolls for large burst because extra rolls increase the odds of getting an 18 (misfire), lots of bullets more chances to jam.

 

I'm not particularly concerned with reality at this point, I intend to incorporate recoil into the equation making super long bursts with hand held weapons pointless, (but quite handy on mounts) besides few small arms would even qualify for a burst longer than 15 rounds, but a vulcan with a rof around 8000 rpm and a burst of say 60+ really needs something done. I'm just trying to get an opinion on odds and looking for flaws in this idea.

 

Thanks

[Zanthis]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Your OCV bonuses are too high. Even a simple +1 OCV can be very significant. Since you are attempting to model increased ROF increasing the likelyhood of a lucky hit (where aim doesn't have too much to do with it), you may not want an OCV modifier at all, since that will play off the character's natural aim. Either way, if you do want +OCV for autofire (which I recommend against, just give the guns built in CSLs for use with autofire):

• 3 rd burst: +0 OCV
  
• 5 rd burst: +0 or +1 OCV
  
• 6-10 rd burst: +1 or +2 OCV
  
• 11-20 rd burst: +2 or +3 OCV
  

However, a special house rule for resolving some autofire attacks could work: For bursts of 10+ rounds, treat the attack as an area effect, one-hex, attack (no special OCV bonus for autofire). Determine the number of bullets striking the hex at 1 if the roll succeeds, +1 per point the roll succeeded by. These bullets are used in a second, completely standard rules autofire attack roll with an OCV equal to the target's normal DCV (before manauvers, but after 0 DCV and 1/2 DCV modifiers).

 

Example: I fire 20 rounds at TargetDummy from 3" away. I have an OCV of 5 and he has a natural DCV of 9. I roll to hit DCV 3 (a non-adjacent hex) needing a 13 or less. I roll a 9 meaning I get 5 potential bullet hits (4 below number needed, so 1 base + 4 extra). Now I roll an attack against TargetDummy's DCV, but my OCV for this is 9. This attack will be an autofire attack with 5 bullets available to hit. If TargetDummy had aborted to a Dodge before I attacked, his DCV would be 12 but my second attack roll's OCV would still be 9. If he currently was entangled, he'd have a 0 DCV and I'd still have a 9 OCV for the second roll.

 

If you think it gets wonky for 0 DCV or 1/2 DCV targets, consider against TargetDummy above, I need a 20 or less on an autofire attack with 5 bullets, meaning I'm pretty much hitting with 4-5 bullets (50% chance I'll hit with all 5). If I'd only used an autofire attack with 5 bullets, I'd have my 5 OCV versus his 0 DCV giving me a 16 or less to hit with a 5 bullet autofire attack. That means 3 hits (50% of the time) and sometimes a 4th, rarely a 5th hit.

 

Also, this method means on bursts of 10+ rounds, you'll hit the target with at least 1 bullet nearly 50% of the time, no matter how good his DCV (barring manuevers). If that isn't good enough for you, you can give a slight OCV bonus to the second autofire roll, maybe +1 or +2. Keep in mind a +2 bonus would mean you'd be hitting with 2 bullets 50% of the time, and at least 1 bullet something like 70ish% of the time.

 

Of course, YMMV.

 

Zanthis

[Hyper-Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

we had a similar discussion a couple of months ago on this thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16956

[Old Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

It also depends on how you calculate the number of rounds that actually hit. Sure sending 100 rounds down range increase your chance of hitting the target but how of those strike what you are shooting at?

[Toadmaster]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Jahmin, yes, you are quite perceptive that is exactly what I am asking for, now if only you were a math wizard .

 

 

Ok, lets try this instead and I realize the actual % may be off, I don't know the real odds for the rolls.

 

1 roll at 11- provides a 50% chance to hit

 

2 rolls at 9- each provides a 35% chance to hit

 

So obviously the 11- has a 50% chance of hitting

 

so what are the odds of hitting at least once with the 9-, (70%? 47%? ???)what are the odds of hitting with both and finally what are the odds of rolling an 18 at least once causing a misfire.

 

 

If I sound frustrated I don't mean too, Thank you for you responses, I appreciate them but most are dealing with the background and not my actual question.

 

I've used the +1, +2, +4 method for 20+ years and am not going to change it now, I'm just trying to refine it some what.

 

Thank you

[Hyper-Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

....

 

I've used the +1, +2, +4 method for 20+ years and am not going to change it now, I'm just trying to refine it some what.

 

Thank you

Please take a look at the following:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=324191&postcount=12

here's my nickels worth...

 

FREd updated many stats for 'real' weapons capable of autofire. I believe that it includes bonuses to OCV and Range mods based on the weapons being fired in full auto mode. These extra bonuses were chosen to show the differences between different weapons that may fire the same round (do the same damage) otherwise. A long barreled weapon is usually better vs. range and a short barrel might be be better at close range.

 

Earlier versions of Hero gave a flat bonus to auto fire attacks based on # of shots. the new version does not. That does not mean that you can't add levels as part of an attack built into a focus however. Also, a character could buy 5 point levels only usable with autofire attacks.

 

Any 'extra' bonus for firing multiple shots could be thought of as the attackers reaction and adjustment to his first shots missing as in 'tracer fire'. I believe that a mechanic already exists for flooding an area with an autofire attack.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Ok, lets try this instead and I realize the actual % may be off, I don't know the real odds for the rolls.

 

1 roll at 11- provides a 50% chance to hit

 

2 rolls at 9- each provides a 35% chance to hit

 

So obviously the 11- has a 50% chance of hitting

 

so what are the odds of hitting at least once with the 9-, (70%? 47%? ???)

 

In this case it is better to look at the probabilities of missing. In the case of the one 11- roll the chance of the attack missing is 37.5%. (there's a 62.5% chance to hit with an 11-)

 

In the case of the two rolls at 9- (which I'll tell you is 37.5%, so you're close enough) then the chance of both shots missing is 62.5% of 62.5% or roughly 39%. Thus the chance of one shot hitting from two 9- rolls is 61% - slightly worse than the 11- roll but obviously with a chance of hitting twice.

 

what are the odds of hitting with both

 

The chance of hitting with both is 37.5% of 37.5% or 14%

 

and finally what are the odds of rolling an 18 at least once causing a misfire.

 

Again you have to look at the chance of not rolling an eighteen at all then subtracting that from the 100%. The cance of not rolling an eighteen on 3D6 is 99.54% and so the chance of not rolling an eighteen in two rolls is 99.54% of 99.54% or roughly 99%. So the chance of rolling an eighteen in one of those rolls is roughly 1%.

 

I've used the +1, +2, +4 method for 20+ years and am not going to change it now, I'm just trying to refine it some what.

 

Thank you

 

I can see that the problem of the autofire is increasing the chance of hitting because there is so much lead flying about but not ensuring that lots of shots hit - a machine gun is inherently less accurate.

 

Why not decrease the chance of multiple hits as the number of shots go up? That would mean as you use more shots you are almost guaranteed to hit at least once but not necessarily more than that.

 

So - in your system where

 

3 rd burst +1 OCV

5 rd burst +2 OCV

10 rd burst +4 OCV

15 rd burst +6 OCV

20 round burst +8 OCV

 

You might also say that

 

3 rd burst +1 hit for every 2 below

5 rd burst +1 hit for every 2 below

10 rd burst +1 hit for every 3 below

15 rd burst +1 hit for every 4 below

20 round burst +1 hit for every 5 below

 

I haven't thought through the consequences of that but obviously given a normal 11 or less chance to hit,

 

with a 20 round burst then there is a guarantee of hitting once, 91% chance of hitting twice, 37.5% chance of hitting three times...

 

with a 15 round burst then there is 99.5% chance of hitting once, 84% chance of hitting twice, 37.5% chance of hitting three times...

 

with a 10 round burst there is 95% chance of hitting once, 74% chance of hitting twice, 37.5% chance of hitting three times...

 

with a 5 round burst there is 84% chance of hitting once, 62.5% chance of hitting twice, 37.5% chance of hitting three times...

 

with a 3 round burst there is 74% chance of hitting once, 50% chance of hitting twice, 26% chance of hitting three times...

 

 

Hmm - doesn't look too bad. Anyway - the percentages all change quite drastically depending on what the initial roll to hit is. If you were using autofire because you're opponent was difficult to hit then it all changes. Say you needed 5- to hit:

 

with a 20 round burst then there is 84% chance of hitting once, 26% chance of hitting twice, 0.5% chance of hitting three times...

 

with a 15 round burst then there is 62.5% chance of hitting once, 16% chance of hitting twice, 0.5% chance of hitting three times...

 

with a 10 round burst there is 37.5% chance of hitting once, 9% chance of hitting twice, 0.5% chance of hitting three times...

 

with a 5 round burst there is 16% chance of hitting once, 4.5% chance of hitting twice, 0.5% chance of hitting three times...

 

with a 3 round burst there is 9% chance of hitting once, 2% chance of hitting twice, no chance of hitting three times...

 

You might find it useful to look at the 3D6 to percentile chart at:

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/rules/3D6Percentiles.html

 

Doc Democracy

[zebediah]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

It's an entirely different approach, but...what if, rather than thinking of Autofire as being a succession of attack rolls to determine the "bonus to OCV," you instead thought of it as one person, coordinating a bunch of attacks to decrease the DCV of his opponent? That seems to be a decent description of what one is doing--filling the space with attacks such that there isn't really any space to dodge.

[BNakagawa]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

It's an entirely different approach' date=' but...what if, rather than thinking of Autofire as being a succession of attack rolls to determine the "bonus to OCV," you instead thought of it as one person, coordinating a bunch of attacks to decrease the DCV of his opponent? That seems to be a decent description of what one is doing--filling the space with attacks such that there isn't really any space to dodge.[/quote']

 

That would be an area effect then.

[zebediah]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

That would be an area effect then.

 

Well, sort of...except that it does have a good chance of hitting multiple times. IIRC, the rule on people ganging up on someone to make them easier to hit basically decreases the target's DCV by 1 for each person to makes their coordination roll, only to those people who make thier coordination roll, reducing DCV to no less than half. Which means the more people are attacking, the lower the target's DCV, and the more likely each one is going to hit him...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

I am curious if the original point of this thread was to explore the mechanics and bonuses of the Autofire advantage iregardless of special effect or is it primarily in regards to the most common: guns?

 

I am also curious how the act of firing 3, 5, 10, 20 etc.. shots can give a bonus to the FIRST shot's chance of hitting? It can't. What a continuous stream of bullets DOES give is the opportunity to adjust aim based on previous 'tracer' fire. The person firing the gun and watching the shots hit changes the aim of the stream of bullets to increase his odds of hitting his target. What different rates of fire WOULD adjust it the rate at which extra OCV vs DCV is used to determine how many extra shots would hit.

 

One solution to your original question would be to use a rule variant from older versions of HERO where you would give 10 or 20 shot auto attacks 1or 2 extra hits per 1 extra OCV instead of 1 hit per each 2 extra OCV. Note, this still does not increase the overall chance of the FIRST shot of hitting, only of a higher number of additional shots hitting once your aim is on target.

 

Different guns have different handling characteristics when fired full auto. Some are very hard to control and others are not. The gun OCV bonuses in FREd reflect these different handling characteristics as bonuses to the novice user.

 

In theory, If I aimed a gun at a target with a stationary mount that will not let the gun move when fired and then remotely pull the trigger EVERY shot will hit exactly the same spot except for variances due to powder load, wind speed and such. These variances do NOT make my initial shot more likely to hit the target yet giving a flat bonus to an attack just because it is "Autofire" is an attempt to do this.

 

A character who Sets and Braces prepares before pulling the trigger to get OCV bonuses. To better reflect the skill of a character experienced with the use of autofire attacks with the sole purpose of increasing the odds of hitting a single target you should take a look at the following post from a similar thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=325948&postcount=18

 

Tracking Autofire

A character with this Skill can use an Autofire attack to increase his chance of hitting his target. When attacking a single target, and firing the maximum number of shots possible, the character receives a +4 OCV with the attack. This Autofire Skill cannot be combined with others (because they only apply when attacking multiple targets). Using this Skill takes a Full Phase and halves the character's DCV. Tracking Autofire costs 5 Character Points.

 

---------------------------

 

Will this work?

 

It's basically based on 4 5 point levels with OIF (any automatic weapon/power), Instant, Full Phase, Concentration 1/2 DCV Throughout, Only When Attacking A Single Target and Must Fire Maximum Shots Possible. I've figuring that's about a -3 in Limitations, which results in a cost of 5, and functions just like any other Autofire Skill.

 

If you want to make this a standard manuever you might as well make ALL of the other Autofire skills on page 33 of FREd standard as well.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

I am also curious how the act of firing 3' date=' 5, 10, 20 etc.. shots can give a bonus to the FIRST shot's chance of hitting? It can't. What a continuous stream of bullets DOES give is the opportunity to adjust aim based on previous 'tracer' fire. The person firing the gun and watching the shots hit changes the aim of the stream of bullets to increase his odds of hitting his target. What different rates of fire WOULD adjust it the rate at which extra OCV vs DCV is used to determine how many extra shots would hit. [/quote']

 

You are right. It doesn't make it more likely that the first bullet from the gun would hit but the logical thought is that the more bullets fired the more likely that one or more will hit.

 

As far as the system is concerned we are talking about the chance of the first bullet to hit rather than the first bullet to leave the gun.

 

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

You are right. It doesn't make it more likely that the first bullet from the gun would hit but the logical thought is that the more bullets fired the more likely that one or more will hit.

 

As far as the system is concerned we are talking about the chance of the first bullet to hit rather than the first bullet to leave the gun.

 

 

Doc

please read the rest of my post.

 

User skill is the only way to take advantage higher rates of fire to increase the odds of "a" hit. A gun's rate of fire by itself cannot accomplish this with out feedback signals from the operator of the gun. Giving a flat bonus of +4 in effect is changing the equivalent of a 5 point autofire skill to an "everyman" skill.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

please read the rest of my post.

 

I did! I thought I was agreeing with you - obviously not...

 

User skill is the only way to take advantage higher rates of fire to increase the odds of "a" hit. A gun's rate of fire by itself cannot accomplish this with out feedback signals from the operator of the gun. Giving a flat bonus of +4 in effect is changing the equivalent of a 5 point autofire skill to an "everyman" skill.

 

I'd disagree with that. User skill is _not_ the only way to take advantage of higher rates, though the tracking option as a combat manouevre is an excellent way to reflect the skilled use of autofire to improve a chance to hit.

 

If you put enough lead in the air then there is an increased chance that a bullet is going to hit - its quite simple - it is the basis for the suppresion fire manoeuvre.

 

I agree that someone skilled in the use of machine guns is better able to use that advantage but I don't agree that someone unskilled with a pistol will have an equal chance of hitting a target as someone unskilled with an automatic weapon.

 

Anyway - neither of our opinions has much to do with the mechanics under discussion. Toadmaster likes the mechanic of increased rates of fire improving the chance to hit - he was interested in other mechanics for changing the statistics for hitting.

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

I did! I thought I was agreeing with you - obviously not...

 

 

 

I'd disagree with that. User skill is _not_ the only way to take advantage of higher rates, though the tracking option as a combat manouevre is an excellent way to reflect the skilled use of autofire to improve a chance to hit.

 

If you put enough lead in the air then there is an increased chance that a bullet is going to hit - its quite simple - it is the basis for the suppresion fire manoeuvre.

 

I agree that someone skilled in the use of machine guns is better able to use that advantage but I don't agree that someone unskilled with a pistol will have an equal chance of hitting a target as someone unskilled with an automatic weapon.

 

Anyway - neither of our opinions has much to do with the mechanics under discussion. Toadmaster likes the mechanic of increased rates of fire improving the chance to hit - he was interested in other mechanics for changing the statistics for hitting.

 

Doc

The point I am trying to make is directed towards Toadmaster's stated goal. I am saying that under standard rules you can't look at Autofire and OCV bonuses as one concept, they MUST be looked at seperatly. The power advantage Autofire only gives the ability to direct more attacks at the target in a given period of time. Area Affect is the advantage to use if you want to give a flat bonus to the chance to hit. Suppression fire is a type of Area Affect Manuever similar to Sweep.

 

If you just give Autofire OCV bonuses beyond this it ends up making the advantage far more powerful than its given cost currently reflects. If Toadmaster wants to house rule this its fine but as I stated in one of my earlier posts this is in effect giving everyone access to a manuever that would otherwise be a 5 point skill and in doing so he should consider making ALL autofire skills everyman.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

The point I am trying to make is directed towards Toadmaster's stated goal. I am saying that under standard rules you can't look at Autofire and OCV bonuses as one concept' date=' they MUST be looked at seperatly. The power advantage Autofire only gives the ability to direct more attacks at the target in a given period of time. Area Affect is the advantage to use if you want to give a flat bonus to the chance to hit. Suppression fire is a type of Area Affect [u']Manuever[/u] similar to Sweep.

 

Hyper-Man, there aint no MUST about it. We began by discussing a house rule and the statistics of that house rule and how those statistics might change under certain circumstances. Our, however interesting discussion on the relative merits of autofire granting OCV bonuses, is a bit to the side of things.

 

Personally, I have no firm commitment to autofire giving an OCV bonus but I can see an argument for it.

 

 

If you just give Autofire OCV bonuses beyond this it ends up making the advantage far more powerful than its given cost currently reflects. If Toadmaster wants to house rule this its fine but as I stated in one of my earlier posts this is in effect giving everyone access to a manuever that would otherwise be a 5 point skill and in doing so he should consider making ALL autofire skills everyman.

 

The OCV bonus comes along with a reduced range disad as well...

 

I don't think that allowing one skill as an everyman skill necessitates granting any other skill.

[That Masked Man]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Consider these examples:

 

1 - Real world example - A weapon with auto and single shot settings trying to hit a moving target (someone who does not want to be hit). Shouldn't the autofire attack be more likely to hit once? Kind of like the way a shotgun does (although it would be biased up and to the right).

 

2 - Heroic level campaign FREd rules - What advantage does an agent with an automatic weapon gain from autofire vs single shot when firing at a single target? Why should he waste the bullets?

[BNakagawa]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

Consider these examples:

 

1 - Real world example - A weapon with auto and single shot settings trying to hit a moving target (someone who does not want to be hit). Shouldn't the autofire attack be more likely to hit once? Kind of like the way a shotgun does (although it would be biased up and to the right).

 

2 - Heroic level campaign FREd rules - What advantage does an agent with an automatic weapon gain from autofire vs single shot when firing at a single target? Why should he waste the bullets?

 

Not really. M-16a1s don't have a fully automatic setting because they were found to be so wildly inaccurate in that mode that all soldiers were doing was wasting ammo. They did have 3 round burst settings, though.

 

Conclusion: Assuming a real hand weapon with muzzle climb, a few more bullets might be a little more accurate, but a lot more bullets is not necessarily a lot more likely to hit a specific target...

 

2: A lucky shot with a single shot weapon is one hit. A lucky shot with a fully automatic weapon might be several hits. Bullets are cheap, attack actions are not.

[bushido11]

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll?

 

What's wrong with the way Autofire works now? The better your attack roll, the more bullets land on target.

 

If you want to talk about riddling a hex with bullets, that makes it an AoE attack, where the DCV is 3 (modified by range). If someone is in that hex, he gets hit, unless he Dives for Cover. It's that simple. If the operator of a firearm isn't a good marksman, autofire isn't going to make him much better. If the weapon has recoil, that'll cancel out the benefit of multiple bullets having a greater chance to hit than a single bullet. If the weapon doesn't have recoil, all of the shots are going to be one behind the other, like a short beam, effectively acting as one shot for purposes of hitting.

 

Also, if you only get one hit out of an autofire attack, it doesn't have to necessarily be that only the first bullet hit him. Also, just because you shoot a burst at someone doesn't necessarily mean that you're chances of hitting him are improved. I can tell you that due to personal experience (U.S. Army). Now, if you wanted to hit someone on the move, you spread your attack, which is something autofire will allow you to do. THAT will help you hit your target, since you're aiming at more than one hex.