Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

[McCoy]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

The book says they give birth to live young one at a time' date=' and that most females die giving birth and most that don't die find the experience so painful that they don't do it again. [/quote']

Unfamiliar with the source material, but, the illogic of reptileans having breast pales beside that of females having survived childbirth being allowed to choose to get pregnant again or not. Do the females that have survived childbirth have a special place/function in the society?

[arcady]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Comic books must drive you crazy!

I find most comic books have better internal logic than DnD inspired fantasy does.

I think Keith refers to the basic suspension of belief that is required merely to play the Fantasy genre. If you look at Fantasy TOO closely (or comic books' date=' or movies, etc.), all you will find is flaws, inconsistencies, etc.[/quote']I read a lot of 'non-gamer' fantasy, and never have these sorts of logic problems when I do. I expect a solidly put together internall consistant world which does not strive to cast me out of 'suspension of disbelief'. It would do that by sticking to the basic premise of keeping things 'mundane' except where they are 'fantastic'. That, or you start with a set of genre assumptions, and then build your world around them with a consistant approach.

 

In such a situation, a world that floats on the back of a turtle and has little floating tear drop shaped slime people makes more sense than one that has lizards with non-usable breasts. The first example sets it's genre assumptions and then sticks to them (somewhat silly but consistantly so), the second sets it's assumptions and then violates them without letting you see why.

but it seems counter productive to apply such strict levels of logic in a fantasy setting' date=' IMO.[/quote']You must not like Tolkien then?

[arcady]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

the illogic of reptileans having breast pales beside that of females having survived childbirth being allowed to choose to get pregnant again or not. Do the females that have survived childbirth have a special place/function in the society?

If so few females survive -AND- they -ARE- the ones who lactate then their value would be so high that you would do everything to protect them. You would not dare risk them on another pregnancy unless there were no longer any young around needing to be fed. You would first exhaust your supply of non-lactating females - the women who have not given birth, or who's breasts have stopped producing.

 

There really isn't anything illogical about reptiles having breasts, only in a creature having them that does not get to use them.

[McCoy]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

If so few females survive -AND- they -ARE- the ones who lactate then their value would be so high that you would do everything to protect them. You would not dare risk them on another pregnancy unless there were no longer any young around needing to be fed. You would first exhaust your supply of non-lactating females - the women who have not given birth, or who's breasts have stopped producing.

 

There really isn't anything illogical about reptiles having breasts, only in a creature having them that does not get to use them.

First, it is illogical for a reptile to have breast, if it lactates, it's not a freaking reptile.

 

BTW, how do you explain Burrough's ovovipious Red Martians having breast?

 

Second, if the Drakine are mammals, and the majority of Drakine females die in childbirth, it would make more sense to domesticate another mammal species or enslave wet nurses.

 

Obviously, the species could not have evolved like that, the "majority of females die in childbirth" has to have been within a few generations, why could nonfunctional breast have been part of the same curse?

[JJR]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

The breasts could be truely functional, a status symbol, a sexual symbol. Many animals have "decorations" to attract mates. It's possible that female draks have breasts just because the are pleasant to have.

 

We should also keep in mind that the word "most" really only means over 51%. 51% might die in child birth, and of the remainder 51% choose not to have a second child. It also means that at least 51% only have one child at a time and not twins.

 

A population of 1,000,000 females would indicate a minimum of 501,000 die in childbirth, and of the 499,000 remaining 250,000 choose not not have a second child. So 1,000,000 are born and 501,000 die. Their population is actually increasing at a slow rate, assuming wars and such are not to hard on the population growth.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Except thats only taking into account the females, not the males. Granted, if the norm involves multiple mates, it works.

 

Still, this is extremely fine edged status, and given the fact that they do suffer wars, its no wonder they are on the decline.

 

That high of a childbirth death rate has got to be unnatural, though.

[JJR]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Except thats only taking into account the females' date=' not the males. Granted, if the norm involves multiple mates, it works.[/quote']

I do not believe you need multiple mates, you just need most males to remarry after their mate dies. So you have a birth rate of about 3 females to 1 to 2 males per each 1,000,000. This would give a population in slow decline which has a difficult time recovering from major wars.

[The Mad GM]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Perhaps their population problems are because the gods created them from two different sets of specs: reptilian and primate, and the long term consequences are just now coming to fruition, say in the last few generations as their gods have been waning in the face of humanities population explosion.

 

It may even be a social problem (note parts of Europe have current negative population growth). The constant wars have forced female Drakine to put off giving birth so they can work the farm or whatever, and (as with humans) the older a Drakine woman gets, the more hazardous the pregnancy, and the less likely they will be fertile long enough for multiple births. Or perhaps so much esteem is placed on soldiering that many young drakettes join the military, and put off maternal instincts for a few years.

 

As far as breasts go, You could have the non-pregnant younger females nursing the young. Their hormonal chemistry migh be keyed very differently from humans. Perhaps pregnancy actually stops lactation - save all the resources for the troublesome delivery.

 

Besides, do the men raise the suckling infants or the children who have been weaned?

 

It's fantasy: gratuitous breasts are more in genre than discussions of population dynamics.

[DrTemp]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Human breasts are there for a reason, and it has nothing to do with Hugh Heffner. It's a food organ,

 

I'm afraid I must correct you. The nipples are required for food production for the offspring. All that fat tissue around those nipples ist not at all required for food production- which is why most mammals have only nipples, but no real "breasts", except at the time when actually having offspring.

 

The beautiful form of human female secondary sex organs is just there for being beautiful, i.e., for attracting males. Therefore, it is pretty reasonable that Drakine breasts are there exactly for the same reason, even without any nipples.

 

[Bozimus]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

I'm afraid I must correct you. The nipples are required for food production for the offspring. All that fat tissue around those nipples ist not at all required for food production- which is why most mammals have only nipples, but no real "breasts", except at the time when actually having offspring.

 

The beautiful form of human female secondary sex organs is just there for being beautiful, i.e., for attracting males. Therefore, it is pretty reasonable that Drakine breasts are there exactly for the same reason, even without any nipples.

 

 

As is proven by males everywhere by our universal distaste for all things Calista Flockhart...

[arcady]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Humans are also menstrual, whereas other mammals are estrus. We, dolphins, and bonobo's are the only animals that have constant sex and do not show our ovulation times externally.

 

Rather, the body always seems ready to concieve even though it rarely is.

 

The nature of breasts is merely a part of that.

 

There's an interesting book on the subject by Jared Diamond:

Why is Sex Fun?. I read that for a physical anthropology class a few years ago.

 

Breast shape is not merely for asthetics. You have the larger form in humans to signify a ready state, and to decieve mates into believing mating with you will be rewarded with offspring, and that those offspring will be well nourished.

 

If the breast has no direct or indirect function -presently or in the evolutionary history- it has no reason to grow into exageration as a 'display organ'. It has no meaning - nothing to signify to a potential mate.

[arcady]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

It's fantasy: gratuitous breasts are more in genre than discussions of population dynamics.

Depends on whether your fantasy comes from Ed -my iconic character looks like me and sleeps with all the goddesses and hot babes in my novels as some sort of wierd sexual outlet for my editor- Greenwood or J.R.R -I only wrote this crap cause I'm a linguisticis geek and needed to create a fully functional society around which to model my theories on language- Tolkien.

 

Not all fantasy is comic books, Kewl video games, chainmail bikinis, midget porn disguised as halflings, and hot orc sex.

 

Most fantasy doesn't even have orcs or halflings or elves or dwarves anyway...

[The Mad GM]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Not all fantasy is comic books, Kewl video games, chainmail bikinis, midget porn disguised as halflings, and hot orc sex.

 

Most fantasy doesn't even have orcs or halflings or elves or dwarves anyway...

 

You're obviously not reading the right fantasy.

 

I was primarily thinking of book covers, Frazetta, Valejo, Bell, and their imitators, rather than the book contents. It is enough of a stereotype to spawn a series of short story collections refuting the basic idea of woman as helpless-victim/sex-object: Chicks in Chainmail.

[DrTemp]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Breast shape is not merely for asthetics. You have the larger form in humans to signify a ready state, and to decieve mates into believing mating with you will be rewarded with offspring, and that those offspring will be well nourished.

 

If the breast has no direct or indirect function -presently or in the evolutionary history- it has no reason to grow into exageration as a 'display organ'. It has no meaning - nothing to signify to a potential mate.

 

The "breasts" of Drakine females might also have some kind of evolutionary function, such as signalizing being well-fed (it's fat tissue, and due to some anatomical reason concentrated there) and thus able to feed offspring.

 

Of course, it might just as well be that Drakine actually have this one mammalian feature. Parallel evolution, aided by the gods.

[lrojas]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

we could get gross and think that the "Mamas" are not actually for sucking but a sort of disposable nutrient meat that the baby drakine can eat from his mother. ther is no pain for the mother as it is disposable tissue not conected to nerves and just serving the purpose of "baby food storage"

[Koshka]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Unfamiliar with the source material' date=' but, the illogic of reptileans having breast pales beside that of females having survived childbirth being allowed to choose to get pregnant again or not.[/quote']

 

It's not entirely a matter of choice -- many Drakine females are incapable of bearing a second child. Sterility can occur with human "problem pregnancies", the impression I get from the book is that it's far more likely for Drakines.

 

Since Drakine culture has equality between males and females, I don't have a problem with a Drakine female recovering from a rough childbirth to decide she's not up for a second one. And, unless the Drakine gods/priests have come up with a spell to tell if a given Drakine female retained her fertility post-childbirth, there's not much incentive for her mate to try talking her into a second pregnancy. If she's sterile, no matter how hard they try there won't be a second kid; and that's a lot of time/effort/sperm wasted.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

If she's sterile' date=' no matter how hard they try there won't be a second kid; and that's a lot of time/effort/sperm wasted.[/quote']

 

Not if Drakines enjoy mating....

[Koshka]

Re: Turakian Age: Drakine Population Dynamics

 

Not if Drakines enjoy mating....

 

Where's that "slap with a fish" smiley ... oh, right, it's on the snopes.com message boards.