What Value would you give this limitation

[JmOz]

A Wizard who has all of his powers bought with the advantage Use either END or END RESERVE

 

His End Reserve REC regenerates only when he uses his personal endurance to feed his powers, only up to the amount of END he uses in the turn

 

I am thinking -1/4 right now...

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

I am thinking -1/4 right now...

 

That sounds reasonable.

[lazarus]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

If I understand the lim right, it goes along the lines of this:

 

uses 3 END Reserve points to fuel the power. This doesn't regen until he spends 3 normal END points to fuel any power. At that point, he regens it.

 

-1/4 or -1/2. It seems to be a little limiting on the reason to have an END reserve, but it's not that big a hinderance.

 

Laz

[TheEmerged]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

Question: is the amount of END that can be "spent" this way limited by the amount of REC in the pool? If so -1/4 sounds reasonable given that the powers can draw from both sources anyway.

 

If not, I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. I have allowed players to do a Self Only (-1/2) Transfer (END to Reserve), with "Restore only" (-0 since there are advantages and disadvantages), under a house rule that most Self Only powers do not burn the attack but still cost a half phase. This is worth points because it allows the reserve to be restored outside of the Post-12 segment...

[zebediah]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

It sounds like what you want is some sort of "spell battery" that effectively doubles the effectiveness of your END when casting spells.

 

So you can cast spells out of your END reserve, depleting it...

 

And the only way of recharging it is to spend personal END casting spells.

 

 

That sounds like what you want to buy is recovery for your END reserve that has the "limited recovery" modifier, "only up to Personal END spent on Spells this turn." I don't know how much of a limitation that would be, perhaps around -1?

 

If you want the END reserve to recover END *when you actually spend your personal endurance* for some reason...well, you couldn't use the above technique unless you could buy down the time required for your ER recovery.

 

You might be able to do it with a no-end, persistant, self-only, only-up-to-the-spell-end-I-spent-this-phaze healing/aid-up-to-starting-value of your ER.

[JmOz]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

It sounds like what you want is some sort of "spell battery" that effectively doubles the effectiveness of your END when casting spells.

 

So you can cast spells out of your END reserve, depleting it...

 

And the only way of recharging it is to spend personal END casting spells.

 

 

That sounds like what you want to buy is recovery for your END reserve that has the "limited recovery" modifier, "only up to Personal END spent on Spells this turn." I don't know how much of a limitation that would be, perhaps around -1?

 

If you want the END reserve to recover END *when you actually spend your personal endurance* for some reason...well, you couldn't use the above technique unless you could buy down the time required for your ER recovery.

 

You might be able to do it with a no-end, persistant, self-only, only-up-to-the-spell-end-I-spent-this-phaze healing/aid-up-to-starting-value of your ER.

 

You have it correct the first time (the bolded section). I was not quite clear, the lim is on the Recovery only

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

Why not just:

 

1) Buy your END Reserve with no Recovery

2) Buy a heal to END Reserve and put it on a self resetting trigger to go off when you spend Personal END, and a limit on it Only Up To Amount of Personal END Spent (-1/2)

 

Then everytime you used Personal END, your END Reserve would get a boost, but only up to it's limit.

[JmOz]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

Because I beleive the simplest way to do something is normaly the best way, and IMO a limit on the recovery is the simplest method.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

Because I beleive the simplest way to do something is normaly the best way' date=' and IMO a limit on the recovery is the simplest method.[/quote']

But its not really a limit in most situations, and could be a net advantage if abused.

[JmOz]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

How can it be an advantage when it still only recovers a max of the END Reserve REC?

 

THis is the build right now, but is still being worked on

 

10 100 end Reserve

08 10 REC for endurance res (-1/4 lim)

 

I can not see how it could be abused, I could see an argument for it being a -0 Lim however...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

How can it be an advantage when it still only recovers a max of the END Reserve REC?

 

THis is the build right now, but is still being worked on

 

10 100 end Reserve

08 10 REC for endurance res (-1/4 lim)

 

I can not see how it could be abused, I could see an argument for it being a -0 Lim however...

 

 

Here is how it could be abused:

 

Figure out how much personal END your character will spend on average in a typical TURN of combat. Buy exactly that much REC for your END Reserve and put a limit on it vis a vis Only To Amount Of Personal END Spent. Even at -1/4 every 5th point is free, and you arent really limited in most circumstances.

[zornwil]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

I believe Killer Shrike's alternative is the cleanest and most "accurate" way. There is - in my mind - not an intrinsic limitation but a power mechanic precisely as he expressed it. Obviously, JmOz, YMMV, and by the same token I have no moral outrage over a -1/4 limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

A Wizard who has all of his powers bought with the advantage Use either END or END RESERVE

 

His End Reserve REC regenerates only when he uses his personal endurance to feed his powers, only up to the amount of END he uses in the turn

 

I am thinking -1/4 right now...

 

I'm trying to wrap my mind around the concept, as well as what wouod be limited. I'm also ot certain what you mean by "uses his personal END to feed his powers". Obviously, it must be me, because others have no problem, posting answers.

 

As I see it, the character can use his END reserve or personal END for his powers (and has paid a +1/4 advantage on these powers for that ability). His END reserve recovers only when he expends personal END on one of these powers, and only to the extent of that END.

 

That leaves me with two questions"

 

First, does he automatically recover an amount equal to the END he uses personally, or does he recover the leser of REC purchased for the END battery and END used personally? Assuming the latter, he either needs huge REC for the reserve, or some other mechanic to achieve the same result. Healing would seem an appropriate approach, and enables recovery to tie more directly to use of the personal END.

 

Second, what would be limited? The powers, the END in the reserve or the REC of the END reserve?

 

SECOND QUESTION FIRST: This restricts when, and how much, his reserve can recover. As such, I think the answer here is easy. Any limitation should apply solely to recovery of the END reserve.

 

FIRST QUESTION: Assuming he automatically gets back as much END in the battery as he uses personally, I would suggest he purchase no REC for the END battery, but instead purchase a form of Healing for the END battery which is standard effect, costs no END and has a number of dice equal to 1/3 of the END he could spend on powers which can be taken from his END battery in a phase. Limit it with "no more than 1d6/3 personal END spent on these powers in the phase" and "Self only". The former limitation would have to be set based on how much END he's likely to spend in a typical phase compared to his maximum dice.

 

An advantage is also technically needed for the fact that the Healing will have no cap. We could handwave it on the basis this uses the "specific wounds" rule. Since he never has a "specific wound" in a phase greater than his max heal (ie he can't spend more reserve END than his heal recovers), he should never hit that maximum. Alternatively, I'd call "no limit" a +1 advantage. If you want a semi-official solution, I think Fantasy Hero suggests full dice every 24 hours, with a +1/4 advantage for every step down the time chart. You'd need to get down to 2 phases, so that's what? 6 steps down to "per turn"?

 

Let's assume he has attack powers costing 6 END each in a multipower, and defense and misc. powers which culd cost a further 9 END ,max, but he'll normally use 9-10 END per phase.

 

He buys 2 1/2d6 Heal END Reserve (15 END standard effect), 0 END (37 AP), self only (-1/2) and limited by his END spent. First off, he has to use the powers, so I'm inclined to allow -1/4 (similar to Linked, but a lot of powers to choose from). He'll only recover when he spends personal END, so he won't do this every phase, where otherwise he could. He'll rarely get the full effect, but can choose when to get a partial effect. Call that -3/4 (as a gut feel) and it costs 15 points if you handwave the recovery time limit.

 

If we make him pay a +1 1/2 advantage for reducing his time limit to once per turn, he could buy 2.5d6 Healing, +24 max (so 15 END at standard effect, max 78), 0 END, recovery limited per turn, for 111 (37 x 3) and RP 44 (111/2.5). Make it a +1 advantage (which I extrapolate from regeneration) and he pays 37 * 2.5/2.5 = 37.

 

Alternatively, he could buy REC for the END reserve. Assuming a 5 Speed, he'd need as much as 75 REC (15 END per phase * 5 phases) with a limitatioon for "only to extent of personal END used on these powers in the turn". If we assume that's a -1 limit, he pays 37 points, matching the +1 advantage for healing. It's about -3/4 to be close to the +1 1/2 advantage (43 points for Rec; I can live with one point slippage).

 

To get to 15 points, this needs to be a -4 limitatioon, and I don't buy that. As a result, I'm no longer inclined to handwave the recovery period under the Heal option.

 

END RESULT: I'm inclined to let him have a -1 limit on his recovery for the reserve, provided that he buys enough to use full END costs per turn as redcovery. Alternatively, he can go the healing route.

 

Expensive? You bet. But he has the ability to fully recover his END reserve in pretty short order, doesn't he? Effectively, this enables him to use his personal REC (every phase) rather than reserve REC (every turn) to replenish the END battery, circumventing its most significant limitation, albeit with some extra time and the visible use of his powers. However purchased, the ability effectively provides a substantial boost to his END reserve recovery. This should not be a freebie.

 

At the same time, that REC is not automatic - he has to spend personal END and flash his powers to make it work. Among other things, that means his reserve won't recover while he's unconscious. As such, a fairly large limitation on that REC seems warranted. That limitation only impacts his REC for the END reserve, so that's all that should be limited. He controls the timing of the rtecovery, so I don't see that REC losing more than half its effectiveness. The fact it costs out like the Healing mechanic also enhances my satisfaction that this is about the right limitation. The 7 point benefit over the more official reduction to healing time maxima is overcome, in my mind, by the Regen comparison, as well as the fact that it's probably worth 7 points to get the recovery during the turn rather tha n wait until PS 12.

[JmOz]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

To answer your questions:

 

Yes, all (well most, but all the ones that can help recharge the pool) of his powers are bought with the +1/4 advantage to allow the use of either personal or Reserve Endurance.

 

It is the lesser of the end spent or the recovery of the End Reserve.

 

The only thing limited with this limit is the REC (as imagined the reserve & Rec is going to be an OAF as well)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

To answer your questions:

 

Yes, all (well most, but all the ones that can help recharge the pool) of his powers are bought with the +1/4 advantage to allow the use of either personal or Reserve Endurance.

 

It is the lesser of the end spent or the recovery of the End Reserve.

 

The only thing limited with this limit is the REC (as imagined the reserve & Rec is going to be an OAF as well)

 

I'd put a sliding scale on the limit based on how likely it is the character will use that much personal END in a turn. It would vary from -1 (above; maximum recovery equals full normal END usage of all powers that could be used together, for every phase) to -1/4 (REC is equal to or less than the PC's own recovery, and most/all END use will come from these powers, so the odds of him NOT using that much personal END in a turn is remote, buyt it won't recover while he's unconscious)

[Dust Raven]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

A -1/4 sounds about right, but if the REC is particularly high (so that it's more difficult/strenuous the use that much END in a Turn) I might say -1/2 (but not likely).

 

It sounds like a need concept, though I'm wondering what the SFX for it are.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

JmOz, how much REC will this guy have with his END battery,m and how much END is he likely to use per turn? That would have a big impact on the magnitude of limitation I would allow, and maybe some others.

[JmOz]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

5-10 Rec, probably around 30 END used a turn

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What Value would you give this limitation

 

With those numbers, I'd cap the limit at -1/4. It seems it would be pretty uncommon for him to be seriously inconvenienced by spending 5-10 personal END in a turn.