Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

[JmOz]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

However here is a simple trick from Tony Stark

 

By a MP of attacks

 

50 MP Weapon systems (all slots OIHID)

5u Repulsor Rays 10d6 EB 1/2 End

5u Chest Blaster 8d6 EB Variable F/X (+1/2)

6u Boot Exaust 6d6 EB Extra KB (+3/4)5

[JJR]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

wrote:

Storm

Indirect, power comes from the sky.

 

Phoenix

Mental power, emanates from the head.

 

Dr. Strange

Magic, VPP.

 

Loki

Magic, VPP.

 

Firestorm

99.9% of the time emanates from hands, other instances are just writer’s/artist’s dramatic license.

 

Invisible Woman

Almost always drawn as emanating from the head.

 

Scarlet Witch

Magic, VPP.

 

Human Torch

99.9% of the time emanates from hands, other instances are just writer’s/artist’s dramatic license.

 

Ice Man

99.9% of the time emanates from hands, other instances are just writer’s/artist’s dramatic license.

 

Electro

99.9% of the time emanates from hands, other instances are just writer’s/artist’s dramatic license.

 

Thanos

Power cosmic, VPP.

 

Odin

Magic, VPP.

 

Silver Surfer

Power cosmic, VPP.

 

Thor (seen releasing power bolts with and without hammer)

Power bolts from the hands were after he acquired the odin-power, then it was magic, VPP added to character sheet.

 

Jenny Sparks

Not familiar with character.

 

Jack of Hearts

Not familiar with character.

 

Captain Marvel

Power cosmic, VPP.

[Wanderer]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

The -1/4 version is called gestures.

 

Nope. Gestures requires that you perform specific movements or the Power does not activate at all. Also, Power is not necessarily related to the body part being moved. They may be magical hand symbols, an aid to concentration, or dramatic posturing.

 

 

Your idea is not supported by the genre. Few characters have origin point options. The ones which do in comics probably paid for the +1/4 advantage.

 

As I said before, artist drawing the character shooting the blast 90% of time from the hands because its' more visually dramatic is not a good reason to impose a game-effect restriction on characters. Vry little energy projectors with innate powers have in-character powers whose nature mandates to be shooted from a fixed location. Superman and Cyclops. It seems a helluva lot of other blasters got that +1/4 advantage, otherwise.

 

 

Anything is viable in your own games. In the official rules it would make a character too versatile. You put a bag over their head to block the eyes and forhead blasts and still get hit with the chest blast. There's a reason it should be an advantage, so that both players and their opponents do not become impossible to defeat.

 

I think that in any but the most silly and comedic superhero game, any character trying to do something so stupid and cheesy as try blocking a blast with a bag deserves to have half his head blasted away by the blast coming through the bag.

 

I would expect superhumans to try to defeat their opponents through heroic, holds-barred-combat and intelligent tactical expedients, not stupid slapstick tricks.

 

Besides, come on. I can see you heartily dislike my idea, but you will admit there far more significant ways of unblancing the system that loosening the point of origin rules. Are you really, sincerely thinking this would make superhumans "impossible to defeat" ? Funny, I thought you'd need a 4000-pts Cosmic VPP to acheive that.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

Indirect... Mental power... Magic... Power cosmic...

 

Well done. Positive rep for having more patience than I do.

[yamamura]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

I have to agree with JmOz statement and if appropiate I would even use it with an Energy blast (ie can use either hands to blast). As for a house rule Wanderer, I see no problem if you want to use 3 points of origin idea, but I would make sure a concept make sense to have more then one origin points. For instance if a player is playing Dragon Lad and he shoots Flames from his mouth, it would not make sense concept wise for it come from his hands. On the other hand Neko-neko has a HKA called claws and they can be used either from her hands and feet. Finally some sort of Robot may have more then one beam emitter located over its body and can easily access them for attack purposes (but you might want to look at purchasing the advantage at point)..

 

G

[Wanderer]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

I have to agree with JmOz statement and if appropiate I would even use it with an Energy blast (ie can use either hands to blast). As for a house rule Wanderer, I see no problem if you want to use 3 points of origin idea, but I would make sure a concept make sense to have more then one origin points. For instance if a player is playing Dragon Lad and he shoots Flames from his mouth, it would not make sense concept wise for it come from his hands. On the other hand Neko-neko has a HKA called claws and they can be used either from her hands and feet. Finally some sort of Robot may have more then one beam emitter located over its body and can easily access them for attack purposes (but you might want to look at purchasing the advantage at point)..

 

G

 

Oh, I have no problem with characters like Dragon Lad. What really triggers my annoyance is assuming that characters like elemental energy blasters or cosmics (yeah I know; but not all cosmics use VPPs) whose power suffuses all of their body, should not be free to release power from multiple locations of their body, just because of an artisitc conventions. And in comics, characters like that are far more common than the one like Dragon Lad.

 

Another thing that annoyed me is that, due to the granularity of the system, you are obliged to pay +1/4 both for having all of the body for origin point, and for having a couple of origin options. It should not be so.

 

Oh, and just one comment to those who decry making multiple PoO a free option as unbalancing: on the average, having an Unbreakble focus is more valuable than having a multiple point of origin, yet it is a +/- 0 Advantage.

[nexus]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

Actually, yes you do have to go to by what is drawn most of the time to determine a comic book character's abilities. If 90 percent of the time they are shown doing something someway, then one or twice they do it another and its never repeated....well that is just dramatic license. Most of the character Wanderer listed have been shown with fixed points of origin for their power or have abilities that negate the need for it (VPPs). Its also been shown that Restrainable is not the same thing as having a Fixed point of origin.

 

The whole complaint seems to be that "This doesn't fit the style I think is cool." thus the rules should be changed to accomadate me. That's fine for your games but its a bad reason to rewrite the game rules over all.

[Wanderer]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

Actually' date=' yes you do have to go to by what is drawn most of the time to determine a comic book character's abilities. [/quote']

 

Sorry, no. There's also what you know from in-character information about the nature of the power. There are characters where there is a reason in the nature of the power for having a fixed location. There is NO reason in the Human Torch's powers why he should only shoot flames from hands. And if you cling to artistic conventions as a reason for the rule, well, then 99% of cosmic and magical characters release their blasts from hands 90% of the time. According to your logic, you should rewrite the rules about VPPs to state that VPPs have fixed origin points, too.

[Wanderer]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

There's also no reason why Human Torch's powers allow him to fly..but that's comics for ya.

 

Shooting hot plasma behind you is an excellent system for propulsion

 

Actually, 99% of the "cosmic" and "magical" character have VPPs. Its no "artistic convention" when it happens MOST Of the time. I can pull out all sorts of examples of comic book characters doing weird things.

 

Comic book characters are also never shown in the toilet. Is this a good reason to assume that getting superpowers causes your bladder and ass to athropy ?

 

Looking at the way things are drawn and taking things literally is inadequate to develop a coherent model of the comic book world. You also have to apply logic to what you see.

 

Seeing a page of Spider-Man drawn besting Galactus doesn't mean I going to buy it, unless The Story gives me an excellent justification (it's a dream, Galactus has exausted all energy reserves and is very near death, Spider-Man was somehow invested with cosmic powers...).

 

You want to change the rule. Change it. Its your game, do what you like but there was no reason to come here and start preaching about how "right" you are because the game wasn't designed to your particular tastes. I mean you clearly had no intention of listening to anything that countered or conflicted with your choice.

 

I mostly refused to accept "They are drawn that way. Don't bother us" as a valid countering argument.

[nexus]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

Then...explain how he hovers without projecting any "thrust"? The offical explaination is comic book physics. Hot air rises, thus a man on fire can fly. It makes no real sense, but...

 

 

Comic book characters are also never shown in the toilet. Is this a good reason to assume that getting superpowers causes your bladder and ass to athropy ?

 

Pretty much no medium portrays people taking a dump. Wanderer. Taking a blatantly absurd example to try to invalidate your opponents point is a poor debate tactic that tends to be more annoying than productive.

 

If Spiderman, for example, is ususally shown lifting no more the 10 tons, but one issue shows him lifting a skyscraper. Its safe to assume "Dramatic License". If he's shown doing in every issue after that, except for exception, its safe to assume he's gotten allot stronger. Clearly the source material you have seen due to you own admitted preferences paints things differently from the way most people on here have seen it done. Except that and change your games how see you fit. You're not in the mood to change your mind or even listen to counter arguments and it doesn't seem like you're going to change anyone elses so make the change you clearly intended to from the start.

[JJR]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

If you really want to be able to very the PoO what you could do is allow a power skill roll with the normal -1 per 10 active points. This would allow a character like the Human Torch with a 60 ap fire blast to make a -6 "fire powers" skill roll and be able to project it from his head in that instance instead of his normal hands. That seems far more sensible then changing the rules, which still in my opinion accurately reflect the comics they are designed to emulate.

[Wanderer]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

Then...explain how he hovers without projecting any "thrust"?

 

Simple. When he hovers, he keeps shooting down hot plasma jusy the right amount to counteract gravity. The same way a VTOL jet or man with a jetpack can hover.

 

If Spiderman, for example, is ususally shown lifting no more the 10 tons, but one issue shows him lifting a skyscraper. Its safe to assume "Dramatic License".

 

I sense here we are getting to one of the sources of our differences. If I see Spiderman suddently lifting a skyscraper without a very good in-story explanation, I don't call it "dramatic license". I call it "artist smoking something bad". Even if it's a comic book universe, I require it to have some internal logical coherence. It may be based on premises (such as magic, or a physics all its own, such as large objects not snapping under their own weight if lifeted), but then it has to develop from thse premises logically. Other fans may be less requiring, though.

 

Clearly the source material you have seen due to you own admitted preferences paints things differently from the way most people on here have seen it done.

 

And this may be another important source of differences. In the stuff I read preferentially (cosmic), 90% of characters has flexible powers sets (VPPs) and innate powers or unremovable foci, so fixed point of origin seems quite unreasonable. It's the same reason why 700-1000 pts. seems the natural default power level.

[nexus]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

Simple. When he hovers' date=' he keeps shooting down hot plasma jusy the right amount to counteract gravity. The same way a VTOL jet or man with a jetpack can hover. [/quote']

 

But you see nothing. There is no enviormental effect. He's just hovering there totally unsupported. Also this "white hot plasma" he's projecting doesn't set anything of fire, doesn't burn anything, etc. He has been shown safely catching people (more than once) while sheathed in flame. He can also blast people with gouts of this "plasma" without inflicting massive burns or any lasting damage.

 

Wanderer, you're aruging realism in comic books. Think about it. Anyway this is extremely off topic.

 

 

 

I sense here we are getting to one of the sources of our differences. If I see Spiderman suddently lifting a skyscraper without a very good in-story explanation, I don't call it "dramatic license". I call it "artist smoking something bad". Even if it's a comic book universe, I require it to have some internal logical coherence. It may be based on premises (such as magic, or a physics all its own, such as large objects not snapping under their own weight if lifeted), but then it has to develop from thse premises logically. Other fans may be less requiring, though.

 

Actually...well, if you want to look at that way then the fact that occasionally these character violating how they have been potrayed 9 out of 10 before by suddenly shooting their energy blasts out of their elbows or whatever is just "the artist on a bad trip" considering pretty much ALWAYS use their powers from one point of origin even in situations where it would be convienent for them to do otherwise, like being grabbed form behind. Artistic Liscense, lazy writing, whatever, its not reason to change rules that are working perfectly well.

 

And this may be another important source of differences. In the stuff I read preferentially (cosmic), 90% of characters has flexible powers sets (VPPs) and innate powers or unremovable foci, so fixed point of origin seems quite unreasonable. It's the same reason why 700-1000 pts. seems the natural default power level.

 

VPPs already have flexible origin points. At 700-1000 pts a +1/4 advantage is almost nothing. I don't see why you arguing so intensely for a system wide rules change when one is not needed. Galactic Champions isn't the "default" power level of Champions (of course, some will disagree, but that IMO). If you want to make it so for your games, make it a house rule and there you go.

[yamamura]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

The other problem with comic books is that when you are talking the big 2, very few charcters are written by their original creators. Sometimes when a new writer takes over, he decides to make his mark on the character. For instance there is Wolverine. Originally it was implied that his claws were additions by the people who gave him his adamandtheants skeletons. But when a new writer came along he suddenly always had the claws. Also Spidermans strength has varied over the year (depending on the writer/artist). There are books showing him exerting to lift a cycle and yet there is others where he can lift a bus. So because of this, one must assume that way the character uses his PoO (ew, and who says comicbook characters don't use the restroom:) ) most of the time is most likely the way it should be.

 

Also Wanderer one last question, given your idea, should Dragon Lad get a point break for always shooting flames from his mouth?

 

G

[Wanderer]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

 

Actually...well, if you want to look at that way then the fact that occasionally these character violating how they have been potrayed 9 out of 10 before by suddenly shooting their energy blasts out of their elbows or whatever is just "the artist on a bad trip" considering pretty much ALWAYS use their powers from one point of origin even in situations where it would be convienent for them to do otherwise, like being grabbed form behind.

 

It's different. One thing are suddenly and unexpalined massive shifts in character's power levels and abilities (Spider-man doesn't lift skyscrapers, Human Torch doesn't blow up planets, Daredevil does not best Silver Surfer). Another wholly different one is to assume that, just because character X does not usually uses Power Stunt Y, a logical and natural extension of the way his powers function, he cannot. Cahracter X (and pretty much all of his brethen) generally shoots from his hands just because for a humanoid, that's the best way to aim a blast. This does not mean he couldn't also shoot from other locations, if he desired. OTOH, there are only a limited number of body parts from which is practical releasing blast (eyes, forehead, mouth, to a lesser degree chest and feet). Shooting from elbows or shoulder blades is not done because it's unpractical. Theoretically, though, it could be done.

 

 

VPPs already have flexible origin points. At 700-1000 pts a +1/4 advantage is almost nothing. I don't see why you arguing so intensely for a system wide rules change when one is not needed.

 

Because I do not find right to expend even an handful points on a rule which is IMO unsuited for the genre. And since I found it unreasonable, I went out to preach about a way to make the system evn better out of sheer altruistic urge

 

Seems my preaching has fallen on totally deaf ears, though. Oh well, truth will be my shield and righteousness my consolation, and all that

 

Galactic Champions isn't the "default" power level of Champions (of course, some will disagree, but that IMO).

 

Quite sadly, on this you' re right, no matter how much I wish be it otherwise. I can only hope that with GC becoming an official subgenre, Champions will move to be less Standard-centric.

[Wanderer]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

Also Wanderer one last question, given your idea, should Dragon Lad get a point break for always shooting flames from his mouth?

 

G

 

Hmm, on this I am a bit uncertain myself, cause I see the potential game balance implications, but sheer system logic and sense of justice lead me to say that yes, he should.

[schir1964]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

Wanderer,

 

You still haven't convinced me that the rule should default to One Fixed Point Of Origin. Mainly because you haven't given enough evidence to support your view. Also your logic seems weak on some points. This makes it appear to be more an opinion based on your own dislikes and likes.

 

Perhaps you should try coming at this from the opposite direction.

 

Can you give us some examples of how the default FPOO rule in Champions games that you have observed have restricted the character in a way that was not reflected in comics?

 

I personally have not seen a character restricted in the way you have described. Has this been a problem for you?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

The other problem with comic books is that when you are talking the big 2' date=' very few charcters are written by their original creators. Sometimes when a new writer takes over, he decides to make his mark on the character. For instance there is Wolverine. Originally it was implied that his claws were additions by the people who gave him his adamandtheants skeletons. But when a new writer came along he suddenly always had the claws. [/quote']

 

Actually, the original intention was that Wolverine was very tough, healed fast and had claws in his gloves. It wasn't until later in his X-Men run (about 130 or 131) that the writers said "Hey, woulldn't it be cool for his claws to come out of his hands?"

 

As to the issue at hand, I agree it should cost more to have no fixed point of origin than to be restricted in this fashion. The lowest possible variance, 1/4, seems the appropriate cost. A default now has to be set. I have no problem with that default being "fixed point of origin", and I agree with the comments that most comic characters are represented as having a fixed point of origin. The Power Skill seems an excellent means of occasionally changing the point of origin, as JJR notes.

 

There is, by the way, a limit to the accuracy with which a game (players and a GM who must have common ground for how things work, in intricate detail, and a system for balancing characters) can simulate fiction (where the writer makes all these decisions, and Daredevil, Human Torch and Thor exist in the same universe without balance concerns). To pick another example, perhaps all powers should be 0 END by default - how often do comic book superheroes get tired in combat? In the game, however, END acts as a balancer to restrict (over)use of high powered abilities.

[sbarron]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please note

 

The question here should not be what is cool, fair, or even right. The question should be, "what is most common in the genre?" The default power setting should be the one found most frequently in comics, limiting the number of characters that have to take limitations and advantages to create their powers.

 

In this case, I think everyone has agreed at some point that 9 times out of 10, characters that "shoot" attacks tend to do so from one location. I won't go into the list of characters here, but most characters fire attacks from their hands, eyes, or head, and very seldomly deviate from their primary location. Also, most characters have to point their hands, eyebeams, or whatever at their intended target in order to hit it using the power originating from those locations. So that doesn't seem unreasonably limiting as the defaut to me, either. By no coincidence, these are the current default settings.

 

There are also mechanics in place to limit or add to the default settings. +1/4 allows for powers to originate from anywhere the user chooses, and the Power skill can simulate any random, unique uses for a given power. These are pretty cheap, and allow for the various advantageous effects that are seen in comic books. Restrainable is -1/2 or -1/4 and limits powers that are susceptable to being taken away under given circumstances. These default rules seem ok to me.

[schir1964]

Re: Proposed Rule Change for 5th Ed Rev. flexible Power point of origin Steve please

 

The question here should not be what is cool, fair, or even right. The question should be, "what is most common in the genre?" The default power setting should be the one found most frequently in comics, limiting the number of characters that have to take limitations and advantages to create their powers.

 

In this case, I think everyone has agreed at some point that 9 times out of 10, characters that "shoot" attacks tend to do so from one location. I won't go into the list of characters here, but most characters fire attacks from their hands, eyes, or head, and very seldomly deviate from their primary location. Also, most characters have to point their hands, eyebeams, or whatever at their intended target in order to hit it using the power originating from those locations. So that doesn't seem unreasonably limiting as the defaut to me, either. By no coincidence, these are the current default settings.

 

There are also mechanics in place to limit or add to the default settings. +1/4 allows for powers to originate from anywhere the user chooses, and the Power skill can simulate any random, unique uses for a given power. These are pretty cheap, and allow for the various advantageous effects that are seen in comic books. Restrainable is -1/2 or -1/4 and limits powers that are susceptable to being taken away under given circumstances. These default rules seem ok to me.

Sbarron,

 

You've echoed the same arguments that others have already made here.

 

Your first point will be rejected by Wanderer, since his opinion is that Artist Convention should not be taken as a literal restriction on the character concept. He says the Genre Convention is that No Fixed Point Of Origin is the norm, not the exception.

 

Your second and third points will be rejected since he insists that the character shouldn't pay extra for something that's the norm.

 

I disagree with your first point, only in that the Genre Convention should have no bearing on game system that evaluates cost based on how powers benefit/detriment the character. If we follow that line of object then what Hugh above suggests would be correct, that all powers should default to no END.

 

- Christopher Mullins