Possible solution for common GM problems

[Gunrunner]

I noticed a lot of GM's having problems with players who don't play their characters realistically - especially when it comes to wearing armor. One way to deal with this is to reward players with extra experience/character points who play their characters realistically. If a player tells me that his warrior is not going to wear armor today because he begins to feel cramped and uncomfortable if he wears it for too long, I would reward that player for good roleplaying.

 

Here's another, more mechanical solution: In game, it's easy to just tell the GM that you want your character to study and learn a spell for 10 hours straight, or wear heavy armor constantly. Realistically, if we were in the shoes of our characters, there is a good chance that we may just be too lazy/unmotivated to study 10 hours straight or wouldn't want to wear heavy armor constantly because of discomfort or lack of cleanliness. Also realistically, if we saw a ghoul many of us would soil ourselves and run away instead of stay and fight. This particular situation is dealt with as a test of willpower in most RPG's, so why not extend that to other similar situations? For example, if your players want their characters to do something you think they might not want to do - like sleep in plate armor or study for hours with no leisure time - then have them make an EGO roll possibly with a penalty modifier. If they fail, just say something like "your warrior is tired of wearing plate armor and just wants to sleep comfortably for the night" or "your wizard just doesn't feel like studying - he needs some leisure time to unwind"

 

The downside here is that this would give your players less control over their characters. It would, however, at least make them realize that their characters are human too (or elven or whatever), not machines who are immune to the stresses on the mind and flesh.

 

Any thoughts/suggestions?

[arcady]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

I'd never tell a player how their character feels, unless some power was being used upon them, but I might tell them the conditions and let the player fill in the emotion.

 

You're hot, sweaty, starting to itch, and low on energy. However, In Hero, those conditions are a factor of the Endurance stat. If they're at full Endurance, and I tell them they're low on energy they're going to tell me I'm wrong, and they will be right.

 

If the game engine never simulates the wear and tear of armor, yet has a mechanic for simulating wear and tear which is expressely not triggered by armor, then if I claim wear and tear without triggering that mechanic I'm somewhat out of line.

 

Perhaps I would be better off using a system of long term endurance which drains them down. Which means I need to find the right numbers if it is a concern.

 

Roman soldiers may have marched all day in armor - but they probably slept hard and felt groggy the next day, and if attacked near days end of wearing that armor probably did not fight at their best. Having been there with modern armor I can attest to that feeling and my thanks at not facing combat after a day of it.

 

As for study, here you need to face up to pre-TV generation people not all having ADD. Studying all day long is not actually all that unreasonable.

[Theron]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

Let us not forget also that for studying, the standards have changed through time. The average Sunday edition of the New York times contains as much verbiage as a literate 16th century man might read in an entire year (of course, no one reads every single word in the Sunday New York Times, but you get my point, I hope).

 

Saint Thomas Aquinas (no intellectual small-fry himself) once commented on a remarkable monk he'd met who not only didn't need to use his finger to keep his place while reading, but his lips didn't move when he read either.

 

Medieval and Ancient people weren't stupid. Their myriad achievements show that. But they did have a different set of working definitions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

As for study' date=' here you need to face up to pre-TV generation people not all having ADD. Studying all day long is not actually all that unreasonable.[/quote']

 

Agreed!

 

I've worked on writing a course for 10 hours at a time - research, write, add examples, proofread, rewrite. I'm sure Steve has written for similar periods of time way more poften than I have.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

One problem with the proposed solution is that any player can tell you all the bonus xp in the world won't matter if my character is dead. The fear is that, by not wearing armor, my character will be ambushed and killed, easily given his lack of resistant defenses.

 

While I agree that a reward for characters who role play appropriately is important, that reward need not be bonus xp. It can just as easily be in-game. For example, if you've been in that armor three days straight, frankly, you STINK! This may cause problems when using interaction skills. Where someone playing more realistically won't have those penalties.

 

By the same token, if the players fleave their armor behind in an approriate situation, and find themselves in life or death combat, expect they will be less willing to leave it behind next time. I sometimes find GM's complaining about the "always armored" syndrome either only ask whether you're wearing yuour armor when there's going to be a battle, or always have combat occur whenever the characters aren't armoured. Logically, the characters quickly learn that being out with no armour is dangerous.

[Old Man]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

I noticed a lot of GM's having problems with players who don't play their characters realistically - especially when it comes to wearing armor. One way to deal with this is to reward players with extra experience/character points who play their characters realistically. If a player tells me that his warrior is not going to wear armor today because he begins to feel cramped and uncomfortable if he wears it for too long' date=' I would reward that player for good roleplaying.[/quote']

 

 

The best reward for having a character take off his armor is for the GM to NOT attack him.

 

Throw in the curve ball of attacking the camp when most of the characters don't have armor on but that should only be 5% or less. Of course if the characters are being actively hunted/pursued, then things are different.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

If we put things in a modern perspective for a moment, I group of guys walking into bar heavy and wearing tactical body armor will likely make the locals nervous. Some of the locals are going to finish their drinks and leave ... if not all of them. The bar's owner/manager is going to want these guys gone (very bad for business). Suddenly the bathroom is out-of-order, all the rooms are rented-out and that's the last of the ale ... have a good night. Moreover, someone's going to make a quick call for the police to come and check these guys out and that is another story. This is a free Social Disadvantage if I ever saw one.

 

 

 

.

[The Mad GM]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

I agree with ChibaBob and Arcady that in-game reasons should be more than compelling enough. If you wear armor for several days straight, you will develop serious skin rashes and problems that could easily limit Com and Pre (stinky), eventually Dex and Con. After a week or more, open sores would even lower Body and increase the chance of catching diseases (the skin is the first line of defense against infection and gangrene). I wouldn't give a character points for doing something realistically. Another in-game motivation is that you have to maintain armor, which can't be done while wearing it. Leather can rot, chain can rust. It's part of the Real Weapon/Armor limitation on all equipment.

 

Frankly, in my game it's the mages with their FF spells that almost never go out that bugs me. How do you eat or excrete through those things?

 

As far as the character getting bored or their attention wandering, the characters are heroes, not normal people. I certainly don't have the drive and stamina to win a gold medal, but that doesn't mean it's unrealistic. A key component to any hero is a sense of purpose, a drive toward some goal, and not letting anything, even their own well being (physical, social, mental, or financial) get in the way. I've never been fond of money oriented characters for just that reason.

[arcady]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

At the end of the day, if players refuse to play their characters 'reasonably' as you see it, you can sit down and discuss it with them, and if you have to dock their future XP over it.

 

Hopefully in the discussion you will be able to avoid the XP measure by reaching a common understanding - which means you need to start without attacking their assumptions over the game and presenting your cause in as friendly a way as possible.

 

If you tell them how their PCs feel, your going to get trouble and resistance.

 

If you can get Endurance costs, DCV mods, and other factors to line up against them though, you can do all that in fair play.

[arcady]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

If we put things in a modern perspective for a moment' date=' I group of guys walking into bar heavy and wearing tactical body armor will likely make the locals nervous. Some of the locals are going to finish their drinks and leave ... if not all of them. The bar's owner/manager is going to want these guys gone (very bad for business).[/quote']Now change that bar to a rural country Inn on the edge of settled lands.

 

Or rather, a small hotel on the edge of a national park.

 

A group of people walk in full backpacker's gear - it's perfectly normal, but also assumed that as soon as they have a room they go up there, drop their bags, shower, change, and -then- come back down.

 

On the other hand, a rural country Inn along the road between two villages (which means those villages are only going to be a few miles apart...) and you walk in with your gear on and unless you have a royal seal on that tabard identifying you as the king's highwaymen or king's rangers or something similar... panic will ensue. You will be presumed a bandit, and that's kind of like being presumed a rabid orc...

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

I noticed a lot of GM's having problems with players who don't play their characters realistically - especially when it comes to wearing armor. Any thoughts/suggestions?

 

An Imperial Roman Legionaire (heavy Inf) marched the äquivalent of 25-30 km a day with a march load of 47,8 kg or a bit more(depending on rations), then he built a fortified camp, if necessary in battle formation against their enemies. .

An forced march could be much longer.

The crusaders rode, and marched from Central Europe to Palestine and wore their armor(Including underpadding) at least in Asia constantly, which saved a many by the turkish surprise attacks.

 

Heavy armor is unconvenient, sure, an arrow in your Body isn`t, I would prefer unconvenient armor over an arrow.

 

 

One way to deal with this is to reward players with extra experience/character points who play their characters realistically.

If i want to play realistically I use Harnmaster or TROs, Problem is, one good hit and a char in these games is dead, in harnmaster the chances to dy on woiund effects after battle are very good.

 

If PCs wears their armor constantly, regardlessof Situation, I would ask myself? Why did they do that, especially if it`s unpolite in a politically Situation.

[Markdoc]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

An Imperial Roman Legionaire (heavy Inf) marched the äquivalent of 25-30 km a day with a march load of 47,8 kg or a bit more(depending on rations), then he built a fortified camp, if necessary in battle formation against their enemies.

 

But as pointed out, that's exceptional, not every day - under normal circumstances, legionaries marched with their gear on wagons, as commonly depicted and not wearing armour.

 

The crusaders rode, and marched from Central Europe to Palestine and wore their armor(Including underpadding) at least in Asia constantly, which saved a many by the turkish surprise attacks.

 

But we know from Anna Comnena's writings that when they arrived at Constantinople they were not wearing armour but brightly coloured clothing - we also know that on their first encounters with the Turks in Anatolia, that many of them died from heatstroke from wearing their armour and that some at least abandoned heavy western style armour for lighter byzantine leather armours (I refer you to the excellent artwork on Normans in Anatolia by Angus Mcbride, all based on research on original sources). Likewise, letters from the crusades refer to the need to wear armour a lot of the time - the bitching makes it plain that this was neither something they were used to or something they liked.

 

Heavy armor is unconvenient, sure, an arrow in your Body isn`t, I would prefer unconvenient armor over an arrow.

 

But just like the Vikings at Stanford Bridge or the Byzantines at the Ister, sometimes the guaranteed discomfort of armour won out against the *possibility* of an arrow in the soft bits. I don't think anyone is arguing against players wearing armour when it's appropriate. The problem is players who want to wear their armour ALL the time.

 

If PCs wears their armor constantly, regardlessof Situation, I would ask myself? Why did they do that, especially if it`s unpolite in a politically Situation.

 

The answer is the situation above: in real life, pain is real. In roleplaying games it's a detail like the colour of the sunset (yeah, yeah, I'm in pain, but it doesn't affect my DCV, right?). In VietNam, soldiers often ditched their helmets - because they were hot, and heavy and they chafed - despite the fact they that were well aware of snipers and shrapnel. The situation hasn't changed in 2000 years* - people balance off the possibility of harm versus the real and undeniable reality of hot and uncomfortable. But PLAYERS don't have to. That's where the GM comes in.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

 

*well, in most ways. I assume knights didn't say "muthafucker" as much as most marines.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

A further thought. "Hmm...look at the gyuys with all the armaments in their nice shiny armor. That stuff don't come cheap."

 

"Oh, did I say SILVER. My error, Good Sir - the price is in pieces of GOLD!"

 

Hey, if you can't overcharge the wealthy, who can you overcharge? Any problems? Cal the watch - who will they believe, these outsiders who are obviously spoiling for a fight, or a reputable local businessman?

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

But as pointed out, that's exceptional, not every day - under normal circumstances, legionaries marched with their gear on wagons, as commonly depicted and not wearing armour.

.

 

No, that was standard in an campaign, and 25 - 30 km equivalent was the standard, at least from Prof Junkelmann, who did an field experiment, marched with a contnerbium of 8 men from Augsburg to Rome in this.

 

 

I wrote in Asia, not in Europe, and clearly the Armor were inconvenient, but necessary.

 

The answer is the situation above: in real life, pain is real. In roleplaying games it's a detail like the colour of the sunset (yeah, yeah, I'm in pain, but it doesn't affect my DCV, right?).

Or the answer is, at least as likely that attacking Dark elven Vampire Assassins with Poisoned Endurium Greatswords popp at the unlikeliest places out of the Limbo, i don`t use this technique, so it isn`t a Problem in my games.

[arcady]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

You can always play with the temperature rules for environment when they wear armor.

 

Leather will keep you warm in cold, but iron won't. Both will make hot weather worse. Possibly multiply the temperature rating by 1.5 when an individual is 'over dressed'.

 

Consider it like a +1/2 advantage on the temperature rating, and give another +1/2 (for a multiple of 2) for humidity.

 

Fahla, my setting, is often both hot and humid in the core areas of focus, so I'll probably use something like that, in addition to an increase in price due to needing to get many armors imported.

 

There is a note in Fantasy Hero about environment, and also one about imposing penalties for sleeping in your gear.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

I believe that a lot of the 24/7 armor syndrome comes from the old days of B&D, when most of the books and acticles were written with the attitude that PCs are for torturing, and that DMs do anything and everything to harm, scare, and inconvenience them. Thus, wait for them to take off their armor, and then ambush them. Players actions are usually in responce to GM's (perceived) actions. If you don't want them wearing armor all the time, don't ambush them all the time.

 

Also, in a fantasy setting, there may be hungry man-eating monsters that hunt by scent. Heavy armors tend to trap body odor, while normal clothing can "breathe". If you're wearing plate armor for a long time, you've got the olfactory equivalent of a bull's-eye painted on you, from the perspective of any scent-tracking animal or monster. In some cases, wearing armor can be more dangerous than not wearing armor.

[The Mad GM]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

I believe that a lot of the 24/7 armor syndrome comes from the old days

...

In some cases, wearing armor can be more dangerous than not wearing armor.

 

Like swimming, climbing, or sneaking.

[Markdoc]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

No, that was standard in an campaign, and 25 - 30 km equivalent was the standard, at least from Prof Junkelmann, who did an field experiment, marched with a contnerbium of 8 men from Augsburg to Rome in this.

 

Or the answer is, at least as likely that attacking Dark elven Vampire Assassins with Poisoned Endurium Greatswords popp at the unlikeliest places out of the Limbo, i don`t use this technique, so it isn`t a Problem in my games.

 

Actually according to Junklemann's own site (http://www.klassphil.uni-muenchen.de/%7Estroh/junkelmann.htm) they did NOT wear full armour on that march - as indeed the photograph of him wearing a velite's equipment from that march indicates. That same outfit is also depicted on the site selling the video of the experiment (http://www.junkelmann.de/). It's not just him either - some the rest of the group is depicted on http://mnemosyne-medien.de/BrotDerRoemer.html - and they are either wearing velite's equipment too, or no armour at all. Junklemann himself says that wearing full armour on long marches - especially in the warmer regions that made up most of the empire - was probably rare.

 

Understand that I am not arguing that legionaries never marched in armour - accounts of the day indicated that they sometimes did. We also know that on the march they carried, from 3-14 days rations, their blanket, two waterskins, a saw, their weapons, rope and leather and a pickaxe - a total of nearly 50 pounds of gear, plus whatever personal belongings they owned. It's not surprising that they would not willingly add another 20-30 pounds or armour.

 

But this discussionis largely academic for me - like you I must admit I have never had a problem with 24/7 armour wearers. My players have always had sufficient historical knowledge or SCA experience to agree that humans can't live totally encased in armour.

 

cheers, Mark

[Gunrunner]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

Just a stab in the dark, but are you Dr. Mark Junkelmann, Markdoc?

[Markdoc]

Re: Possible solution for common GM problems

 

Nope. I'm Dr. Mark Doherty - a completely different person. But I'm familiar with Junklemann's work over many years since Slingshot days and also from a visit to the Limes in Augsberg two summers ago, where the recreation group that he is involved with is based.

 

Edit: also it's possible to get too wrapped up with this issue, which had been debated to death on various forums. We know that in antiquity that warriors did not wear armour all the time - we know that they did wear it sometimes. Anything beyond that depends on how much weight you put on various sources.

 

cheers, Mark