Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

That is freakin' depressing. I have no interest in dysfunctional drivel.

 

That's why there is more than one flavor of ice cream, and more than one forum topic. Read what you want to read.

 

(Incidentally, I am very glad that it isn't a common practice for all of the Hero Games discussion board readers to post an announcement that "this topic does not interest me" in every thread which they do not find either useful or entertaining. It would make the boards nigh-unreadable.)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

He's a "everyman" aside from the powers. Why does "realistic" always have to mix with "sordid" to be interesting?

 

We will probably never know: scientists have been asking that question for millions and millions of years. If someone did discover the secret, just think of the humanitarian uses! We could harness the emotional energy of daytime soap operas, and eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels!

 

So we owe it to our fellow gamers, to our descendents and the children of the world, to continue to explore these issues.

 

(cue inspiring music as we all gaze stoically into the future)

[Theron]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

That is freakin' depressing. I have no interest in dysfunctional drivel. Please don't take this personally' date=' but there isn't anything of value in reading or coming up with this kind of crap.[/quote']

 

Thank you for your intelligent and articulate threadcrap. It has been filed away for a future topic you care about so that it can be returned in the same or better condition.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

That's why there is more than one flavor of ice cream, and more than one forum topic. Read what you want to read.

 

(Incidentally, I am very glad that it isn't a common practice for all of the Hero Games discussion board readers to post an announcement that "this topic does not interest me" in every thread which they do not find either useful or entertaining. It would make the boards nigh-unreadable.)

Okay, I can't help it. I have to wonder what produces a "taste" for the constant victimization of women in the games that people talk about that they have played or the comics they read. I have to suspect an awful lot of gamers (not necessarily the majority) on these boards need to get out and actually try to develop a healthy relationship with the opposite sex instead of dwelling on anything, no matter how creepy, to give them a vicarious sense of intimacy with the opposite sex or they need to find a better way to explore their own negative experiences. It just isn't healthy, IMO.

 

[dons flame-retardant suit]

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Thank you for your intelligent and articulate threadcrap. It has been filed away for a future topic you care about so that it can be returned in the same or better condition.

Hey, if you enjoy molestation plots...

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

dons flame-retardant suit

 

So you are simply trolling, then. Perhaps I am slow, and should have realized it sooner.

 

I will leave you with this small nugget of information: I'm happily married to my childhood nemesis, have been for 13 years, and my very first Champions character was a male who had had an abusive childhood. So, in every way, your aspersions are unfounded.

 

Good day.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

So you are simply trolling, then. Perhaps I am slow, and should have realized it sooner.

 

I will leave you with this small nugget of information: I'm happily married to my childhood nemesis, have been for 13 years, and my very first Champions character was a male who had had an abusive childhood. So, in every way, your aspersions are unfounded.

 

Good day.

Well yeah, I'm trolling because I said something you don't like. Look, if you can't understand why I don't like stories about the victimization of women left and right and the like then you probably don't understand what disturbs me about the Authority or the Ultimates or the JLA Identity Crisis and that's okay.

 

For some reason, some folks haven't noticed that I responded to very specific issues brought up in this thread. If that's threadcrapping so be it. I think there has been a lot of focus on some pretty unhealthy topics on some of these boards of late and tough nuggies, if my saying so offends anyone.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

This thread is interesting, and the ideas that Evil Toki put out were not that bad. I think that the way the argument is developing is just showcasing the ongoing argument that seems to be common to a lot of the threads on this board: Iron Age vs. Golden Age/Silver Age.

 

I stopped reading comics when I hit my early twenties because they no longer said anything to me. I enjoyed them growning up, and they served a purpose in my life. Hell, I practically learned to read from comic books. I will always have fond memories of those old Silver Age comics that I read. However, I do not really enjoy those stories the way I used to, with some exceptions.

 

I read comics again now because the writing has improved so much. The fact is that, on average, comics are not read by children anymore. I think most current fans expect a little more depth. We want the storylines to be more dramatic and engaging, and the characters to be more multi-dimensional. We want to see more of an interest taken in verisimilitude and playing with the genre conventions. I think the Ultimates line is saving Marvel from mediocracy. The superhero genre needs to push its limits sometimes.

 

The comments that Storn made about Joss Whedon are right on. The whole Buffy premise is farcical when you look at it. A young woman with super powers who battles mythological monsters while dealing with the trials and tribulations of growing up. The execution was what made that show good. Having the characters react in emotional honest ways to fantastic situations sold the stories. Going further, the whole premise of superheroes is ludicrous in the same way.

 

I personally appreciate that the new writers are trying to infuse the superhero concept with new life. I don't always agree with, or like, what they do, but I appreciate the effort. As an example, there are several titles from the Marvel MAX imprint that I thought were very poorly done (Cage, U.S. War Machine and others) . However, Alias is a gem. Sexual issues, addiction, repressed trauma and self-destructive behavior were all shown. I think it was pretty well done, and I liked character--who happened to be female-- all the more for her flaws. Was it written by a man? Sure. Was it exploitative? The point can be argued either way. I can still enjoy something that I liked when I was younger, just not in the same way.

 

I think it adds to the enjoyment when the heroes are shown to be real people. Every hero you have ever had in life has been a real person, with flaws and foibles. Does that lessen what they have accomplished?

 

Why can't a Champions game be brought to the same level. It may not be to everyone's tastes, but some might enjoy playing that way. Who knows, there might be an audience for this type of thing. I know that most people roleplay to avoid dealing with the unpleasant aspects of life, but that does not mean that every one wants that. Isn't it possible that some people might find some relief in being able to address these issues symbolically during the roleplaying experience? For the others, like cable TV and movies, people will avoid what they don't like. Those who have a cool spin on the characters, keep it coming. Don't be discouraged.

 

Stepping away from the soapbox........

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

We will probably never know: scientists have been asking that question for millions and millions of years. If someone did discover the secret, just think of the humanitarian uses! We could harness the emotional energy of daytime soap operas, and eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels!

 

So we owe it to our fellow gamers, to our descendents and the children of the world, to continue to explore these issues.

 

(cue inspiring music as we all gaze stoically into the future)

 

You know, Its a really good thing I know you don't like smarmy sarcastic and borderline insulting replies on message boards to legitmate posts or I might be insulted by the above. Oh yeah, thats only reserved for topics and opinion you agree with.

[Evil Toki]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Thanks lapsedgamer at least someone is trying to stay on topic LOL... I have more ideas forthcoming, even a better version of the Champions ideas I threw out there... maybe Champions should work for Primus?

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

This thread is interesting, and the ideas that Evil Toki put out were not that bad. I think that the way the argument is developing is just showcasing the ongoing argument that seems to be common to a lot of the threads on this board: Iron Age vs. Golden Age/Silver Age.

 

I stopped reading comics when I hit my early twenties because they no longer said anything to me. I enjoyed them growning up, and they served a purpose in my life. Hell, I practically learned to read from comic books. I will always have fond memories of those old Silver Age comics that I read. However, I do not really enjoy those stories the way I used to, with some exceptions.

 

I read comics again now because the writing has improved so much. The fact is that, on average, comics are not read by children anymore. I think most current fans expect a little more depth. We want the storylines to be more dramatic and engaging, and the characters to be more multi-dimensional. We want to see more of an interest taken in verisimilitude and playing with the genre conventions. I think the Ultimates line is saving Marvel from mediocracy. The superhero genre needs to push its limits sometimes.

 

The comments that Storn made about Joss Whedon are right on. The whole Buffy premise is farcical when you look at it. A young woman with super powers who battles mythological monsters while dealing with the trials and tribulations of growing up. The execution was what made that show good. Having the characters react in emotional honest ways to fantastic situations sold the stories. Going further, the whole premise of superheroes is ludicrous in the same way.

 

I personally appreciate that the new writers are trying to infuse the superhero concept with new life. I don't always agree with, or like, what they do, but I appreciate the effort. As an example, there are several titles from the Marvel MAX imprint that I thought were very poorly done (Cage, U.S. War Machine and others) . However, Alias is a gem. Sexual issues, addiction, repressed trauma and self-destructive behavior were all shown. I think it was pretty well done, and I liked character--who happened to be female-- all the more for her flaws. Was it written by a man? Sure. Was it exploitative? The point can be argued either way. I can still enjoy something that I liked when I was younger, just not in the same way.

I think it adds to the enjoyment when the heroes are shown to be real people. Every hero you have ever had in life has been a real person, with flaws and foibles. Does that lessen what they have accomplished?

 

Why can't a Champions game be brought to the same level. It may not be to everyone's tastes, but some might enjoy playing that way. Who knows, there might be an audience for this type of thing. I know that most people roleplay to avoid dealing with the unpleasant aspects of life, but that does not mean that every one wants that. Isn't it possible that some people might find some relief in being able to address these issues symbolically during the roleplaying experience? For the others, like cable TV and movies, people will avoid what they don't like. Those who have a cool spin on the characters, keep it coming. Don't be discouraged.

 

Stepping away from the soapbox........

 

These following terms you have used in response are purely glittering generalities.

 

dramatic

 

adj 1: suitable to or characteristic of drama; "a dramatic entrance in a swirling cape"; "a dramatic rescue at sea" [ant: undramatic] 2: sensational in appearance or thrilling in effect; "a dramatic sunset"; "a dramatic pause"; "a spectacular display of northern lights"; "it was a spectacular play"; "his striking good looks always created a sensation" [syn: spectacular, striking] 3: pertaining to or characteristic of drama; "dramatic arts" 4: used of a singer or singing voice that is marked by power and expressiveness and a histrionic or theatrical style; "a dramatic tenor"; "a dramatic soprano" [ant: lyric]

 

engaging

 

\En*ga"ging\, a. Tending to draw the attention or affections; attractive; as, engaging manners or address.

multi-dimensional

 

multidimensional adj : having or involving or marked by several dimensions or aspects; "multidimensional problems"; "a multidimensional proposition"; "a multidimensional personality"

verisimilitude

 

\Ver`i*si*mil"i*tude\, n. [L. verisimilitudo: cf. OF. verisimilitude. See Verisimilar.] The quality or state of being verisimilar; the appearance of truth; probability; likelihood.

 

I could use every one of these in discussing a role-playing experience that didn't dwell on molestation, rape, victimization of women, revenge fantasies, or any of the other themes that are taken to be more mature and sophisticated by so many today.

[Evil Toki]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

We get it you don't like it... so what would your ideal comic be then Agent X, stop pointing out the faults and present some ideas

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

We get it you don't like it... so what would your ideal comic be then Agent X' date=' stop pointing out the faults and present some ideas [/quote']Well, I did but I'm not bragging about them.

 

I think it's possible to have a well thought out story with characters acting in a genuine fashion to serious issues without some of the Iron Age cliches present today.

 

I see the opportunity to explore the issue of money and heroism - Binary Man and Cavalier provide interesting foils for the Champions. Sapphire's promotionalism could be compared to Cavalier's advertisements or Binary Man's spokesmanship.

 

I think Nighthawk would need a better hook than Viper scarring his face in a comic book.

 

How will the authorities react when a Spaceship shows up with aliens claiming to be Officers of the Law seeking a certain fugitive known to Earth as Ironclad?

 

Just a few ideas...

[Theron]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Hey' date=' if you enjoy molestation plots...[/quote']

 

Ah, the internet. Where people feel free to say things that would get their nose broken were they to dare utter it in person.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Writing a champions comic book has a lot of pitfalls, IMO. First, the characters are meant to demonstrate what 350 pts and examples of various archtypes. So, the are not REALLY designed to be a super team that is new or ground breaking.

 

I'm sorry, but 350 points *is* "new and ground breaking."

[Chuckg]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Yeah, 350 points is like the New Warriors, not the Avengers.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Ah' date=' the internet. Where people feel free to say things that would get their nose broken were they to dare utter it in person.[/quote'] Theron, talking tough on the internet doesn't prove much. And my nose has never been broken.

 

I will admit that I worded that lazily and it suggests more than it should. I apologize.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

I think that the way the argument is developing is just showcasing the ongoing argument that seems to be common to a lot of the threads on this board: Iron Age vs. Golden Age/Silver Age.

 

I disagree with this characterization. The (extremely tedious) argument is not between people who like different kinds of superhero comics, or different kinds of superhero games. We all like different things, and for most of us this is not a cause for argument. The arguments are between people who want to play games or read comics they enjoy (which is most of us, I think), and people who say that they shouldn't do that, and are perverse or morally weak for doing so (e.g., Chuckg, Agentx, Wanderer, Worldmaster).

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

I disagree with this characterization. The (extremely tedious) argument is not between people who like different kinds of superhero comics' date=' or different kinds of superhero games. We all like different things, and for most of us this is not a cause for argument. The arguments are between people who want to play games or read comics they enjoy (which is most of us, I think), and people who say that they shouldn't do that, and are perverse or morally weak for doing so (e.g., Chuckg, Agentx, Wanderer, Worldmaster).[/quote'] Some of us are also pointing out the affectations toward sophistication and realism aren't warranted.

 

And it's Worldmaker not Worldmaster. He calls himself that because of his PBEM.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

I might point out that the one person I have called morally twisted to date had to first repeatedly state his opinion that it's psychologically OK to glory in the slaughter of enemies, not to mention his whole routine re: rapists.

 

Or to put it more bluntly, excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me for calling the spade a fucking shovel.

[Theron]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Theron' date=' talking tough on the internet doesn't prove much. And my nose has never been broken.[/quote']

 

Does that constitute tough talking as well?

 

I will admit that I worded that lazily and it suggests more than it should. I apologize.

 

Fair enough. I've had more than my share of cranky the past few days.

[Lupus]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Personally, I feel the current CU kinda is the 'Ultimate' version of the old CU. But 'Ultimate' in a kind of 'stainless steel iron age' way. I really like the new stuff - some real hard-edged things there, but maintaining some Silver Age high-mindedness and Bronze Age hijinx along the way. It's a brilliant mix, in my opinion.

 

The old CU was, plainly, goofy. It was 4-colour in some of the worst excesses of 4-colorishness. (Granted, unlike how it was pushed somewhat in the BBB, there are many rooms inbetween four-colour and over-the-top dark champions. I think virtually everyone plays somewhere inbetween.) Obsidian needed no excuse, and no background beyond 'I'm an alien prince, crash-landed on earth.' Seeker is an ocker who met an old Japanese guy and 'trained to be a ninja.' Do you need more than that? No. Because it's four-colour, and no-one's expected to actually know anything about ninjas or aliens, or expect any actual exploration of such themes.

 

Now, I'm aware that things were expanded some in supplements, like Watchers of the Dragon. I don't have most of them, so I'm going mainly on the BBB. (And I'm not slamming the old champions - goofiness has its place, it's just not a game I wanna play. Please don't start on an old vs new thread.)

 

The new CU, however, focusses much more on the people inside the suits. They have cooler designs, generally cohesive backgrounds and are integrated into the setting as a whole, giving examples not only of powers and origins, but how they fit into the world and various meta-plots hanging around (Witchcraft being the most obvious here, with the whole mystic world thing, which is one reason she's one of my favorites. But Defender and the corporate world is rife with potential, too).

 

There's some understanding of subcultures - Nightwind doesn't just get a Chinese teacher and learn how to be a ninja. He goes to the Yengtao temple, and has an origin story that at least /sounds/ like the writer knows what he's talking about. At the very least, he's watched a few movies. There's an air of verisimilitude there.

 

And I'm glad Storn Cook is on this thread (hope he's still reading it) 'cause from looking at the art, I think he's done a lot to influence some of the costume design. At least, if he isn't behind the move, he's the best example of it. That being getting some seriously classic looks (like the spandex bodysuit) and making it look COOL. LadyBlue, for instance, would probably have had a bright electric blue bodycondom back in the day... and done by most modern artists, she'd be wearing black and either baring skin or having extraneous blades 'n' stuff. Storn draws her? She looks just plain cool. Same with the dude flying past the cable car, and the woman hovering over the statue (she's in a few pics, but this is the one I remember). Some classic designs, which somehow manage to capture a modern aesthetic at the same time.

 

Anyway... that's all why I think the current CU kinda is the 'Ultimate CU' - it's taking modern sensibilities and re-doing the comics in that style.

 

If you wanted to go further, though, and do a 'dark Ultimate CU'... I'd go a bit darker. Have Millennium City be overrun by special interests. Lotta VIPER money went into its construction, in this version - they all but run the government. The Champions have to dodge the authorities, while trying to unravel the nest of conspiracies (VIPER isn't the /only/ group doing this) and free their beloved city from the clutches of corruption.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

These following terms you have used in response are purely glittering generalities.

 

dramatic

 

adj 1: suitable to or characteristic of drama; "a dramatic entrance in a swirling cape"; "a dramatic rescue at sea" [ant: undramatic] 2: sensational in appearance or thrilling in effect; "a dramatic sunset"; "a dramatic pause"; "a spectacular display of northern lights"; "it was a spectacular play"; "his striking good looks always created a sensation" [syn: spectacular, striking] 3: pertaining to or characteristic of drama; "dramatic arts" 4: used of a singer or singing voice that is marked by power and expressiveness and a histrionic or theatrical style; "a dramatic tenor"; "a dramatic soprano" [ant: lyric]

 

engaging

 

\En*ga"ging\, a. Tending to draw the attention or affections; attractive; as, engaging manners or address.

multi-dimensional

 

multidimensional adj : having or involving or marked by several dimensions or aspects; "multidimensional problems"; "a multidimensional proposition"; "a multidimensional personality"

verisimilitude

 

\Ver`i*si*mil"i*tude\, n. [L. verisimilitudo: cf. OF. verisimilitude. See Verisimilar.] The quality or state of being verisimilar; the appearance of truth; probability; likelihood.

 

I could use every one of these in discussing a role-playing experience that didn't dwell on molestation, rape, victimization of women, revenge fantasies, or any of the other themes that are taken to be more mature and sophisticated by so many today.

 

I know I am going to regret answering this post, but I am not always able to exercise my best judgement. That's probably why I enjoy the stories that I do.

 

Agent X: Two words: Arrant pedantry. I do not you need to tell me what the dictionary says. I do not need you to be my moral compass.

 

If you weren't so dead set on proselytizing and/or starting a flame war, you would have picked up on a few things. I did not put down other ways of playing the game. I did not put down other forms of comics. I did not insult you, or your position. I did not say that my preferences were the only valid choices.

 

I made what I hoped would be seen as a personal statement supporting the concept of the thread. I tried to support that statement by giving examples from my own experience, and including some points made by other posters. I acknowledeged that other people have different preferences, and I also acknowleged that the newer style of writing can be poorly done. I actually don't like the Authority very much. I think is way over the top. I stated plainly that I didn't like a lot of the Marvel MAX line. I just feel that I have enough of an open mind to look at an idea before issuing a blanket condemnation.

 

I actually would not want to participate in a game where the issues that have been discussed were the focus of the game all the time. However, I did not see anyone suggesting that any of those topics should be the exclusive focus of the gaming experience. My understanding of the thread is this: Given that the genre has changed, how would you change the Champions Universe to reflect the new twist in the genre it is designed to emultate? A simple exchange of ideas. I acknowledge that others may see things differently. More importantly, no one is bound to use anything posted here.

 

Other posters: Please forgive me for that. I'm sure that I will pay for that on Judgement Day. I am working on my own thoughts on the actual topic of the thread, whatever they might be worth. I just failed my EGO roll badly.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

Speaking as a guy who has had his own major clashes with Agent X, and can hardly be accused of being his friend...

 

... I don't see where any of your accusations against him in this thread contain any truth whatsoever. If anybody's trying to start a flamewar here, it's bblackmoor and you.

 

If your positions could be defended, you'd be defending them on their own merits -- not counter-attacking with character assassination.

 

And he's right, every word you used is so generalized that it can mean potentially anything, which means your argument didn't really commit itself to anything.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it?

 

I know I am going to regret answering this post, but I am not always able to exercise my best judgement. That's probably why I enjoy the stories that I do.

 

Agent X: Two words: Arrant pedantry. I do not you need to tell me what the dictionary says. I do not need you to be my moral compass.

 

If you weren't so dead set on proselytizing and/or starting a flame war, you would have picked up on a few things. I did not put down other ways of playing the game. I did not put down other forms of comics. I did not insult you, or your position. I did not say that my preferences were the only valid choices.

 

I made what I hoped would be seen as a personal statement supporting the concept of the thread. I tried to support that statement by giving examples from my own experience, and including some points made by other posters. I acknowledeged that other people have different preferences, and I also acknowleged that the newer style of writing can be poorly done. I actually don't like the Authority very much. I think is way over the top. I stated plainly that I didn't like a lot of the Marvel MAX line. I just feel that I have enough of an open mind to look at an idea before issuing a blanket condemnation.

 

I actually would not want to participate in a game where the issues that have been discussed were the focus of the game all the time. However, I did not see anyone suggesting that any of those topics should be the exclusive focus of the gaming experience. My understanding of the thread is this: Given that the genre has changed, how would you change the Champions Universe to reflect the new twist in the genre it is designed to emultate? A simple exchange of ideas. I acknowledge that others may see things differently. More importantly, no one is bound to use anything posted here.

 

Other posters: Please forgive me for that. I'm sure that I will pay for that on Judgement Day. I am working on my own thoughts on the actual topic of the thread, whatever they might be worth. I just failed my EGO roll badly.

And I have an opinion about molestation plots in a costume action/adventure drama. I've been pretty specific about what it is I'm criticizing.

 

As for errant pedantry, I was covering the bases and illustrating for everyone why your comments were glittering generalities. Big words don't change the nonspecific nature of your defense of whatever it is you're defending. I'm saying I don't think molestation and rape are handled well in a comic book physics/costume world. I'm also saying most of the people who try to handle it in such a world do a horrible job of it. Consider how such an issue is being handled in Identity Crisis as an example.

 

Feel free to criticize my tastes if you wish. I think you will find it difficult to come up with an effective criticism other than you don't like it. With molestation themes, I can say I don't like it because it is a debasement of character and it is mucking about in the gutter and I'm concerned for anyone who wants to dwell on those issues in serial fiction.