Champions is still the best of the rest

[Prodical]

I just felt the need to post that after being away from this wonderful game system for so long, it feels so good for me to have returned to it.

 

I have strayed and journeyed through many other superhero rpg systems but now I am back with my first love in games.

 

The main thing that I have discovered as I learned how to play various other superhero rpgs was that they were each trying to be as good and as complete as Champions.

 

I have re-familiarized myself with the 4th Edition rules and look forward to adding the 5th Edition to my library.

[Law Dog]

Well, although I do agree that Champions is the most complete and specific supers RPG on the market, let's not turn a blind eye towards a few of the legitimate problems with the system. As a combat simulation, it is #1, but occassionally suffers from being somewhat slow and pretty rigid as well as some folks looking at it as more of an exercise in bookkeeping than some of the other systems. Also, unfortunately, some of us also feel that it hasn't really been able to create its own "Universe" successfully. In many of our cases, this isn't a problem as we either use another already created universe, one we created from whole cloth, or a combination of the two. Take Green Ronin's Mutants & Masterminds, the new kid on the block and their proposed material already seems to capture the comic book feel.

[Acroyear]

Things are only a "legitimate problem" if they are actually a problem. Everything you listed is not a problem with the game, but with individual preferences.

 

My group certainly doesn't find it too slow nor has any problem, at all, keeping track of a mere 2 numbers in combat. 2nd grade subtraction skills aren't a chore for me It can get slow with lots and lots of participants... but so can any other game.

 

Nor is the lack of a "universe" a problem, at all, as it seems most people prefer to use their own inventions in supers. Can one even fairly say that with all the universe material out? CKC is firmly entrenched, CU is a whole universe sourcebook, and a city book is on its heels. It has more universe than any current competitor so far - Marvel having a nice claim when its game comes out. In fact, I found CKC so entrenched, I have no desire to use it.

 

I think it's unfortunate that a game like SAS "wasted" so many pages on their setting (and on that "history of comics bit). Those pages could have been chopped and reduced the price or been used to present a larger stock of villains to use (either as examples or fill ins). It is much more wish-washy and hand waving in style... but it's not fair to call that a "problem" with the system. That's the intention.

[Brutal]

Originally posted by Law Dog

Well, although I do agree that Champions is the most complete and specific supers RPG on the market, let's not turn a blind eye towards a few of the legitimate problems with the system. As a combat simulation, it is #1, but occassionally suffers from being somewhat slow and pretty rigid as well as some folks looking at it as more of an exercise in bookkeeping than some of the other systems. Also, unfortunately, some of us also feel that it hasn't really been able to create its own "Universe" successfully. In many of our cases, this isn't a problem as we either use another already created universe, one we created from whole cloth, or a combination of the two. Take Green Ronin's Mutants & Masterminds, the new kid on the block and their proposed material already seems to capture the comic book feel.

 

Combat is only really slow if you make it slow. Im a pretty fast GM in combat, the trick it to make the players FEEL like its fast. Not the easiest thing with alot of participants, i know, but its all about multitasking

[Prodical]

The time that it takes to clobber.

 

Combat in Champions is slow in comparison to every game from Marvel Super Heroes ( one or two D% rolls to yield a result with pre-determined damage ratings) to M&M (no hit points to keep track of and of course the single d20).

 

What makes it slow? Usually, the higher the power level the slower the combat due to counting the dice.

 

If you have been running or playing in Champions for a while , adding up the score from 10 d6 or less (including BOD totals) takes what? 5 seconds? Newbies can feel overwhelmed when tossing 8 to 12 d6 then counting them out one by one.

 

Next is STUN, BODY, and END bookkeeping followed by REC application.

 

Here is my suggestion for those who have played Champions but get all bent out of shape due to adding , subtracting and having to keep their pencils sharpened:

 

Call a WAAAAMBULANCE!!!!WAAAA!!!! WAAAA!!!!

 

The reason that I got out of Champions and Hero was because someone with a sweet voice and sexy legs convinced me that superhero rpg's like DC Heroes (Mayfair) and Marvel Super Heroes (dice and cards) were more "comic book-like", i.e. "easier and faster" to play.

 

So what do I do when I become a referee for one of those games? I take mechanics from Champions and introduce them to the aforementioned games to make them better anyway (the Speed Chart, for example).

 

My point is I have learned the hard way by spending valuble time and way too much money on crap that Champions is THE BEST.

 

I have not played M&M. I have read the rules. I have seen character writeups of Marvel Characters so that I could more easily assimilate the M&M descriptions.

 

It is a good game. But I want to begin playing the BEST game again.

The new Marvel RPG is using stones or tokens to allocated Endurance in order to determine an outcome. It looks interesting. But it will never, ever, be as interesting to play as a Hero System/Champions game.

 

Am I biased? I swear I am being as honest and forthright as I can be. I cannot prove that I am not, but I believe that once you ACCEPT the bookkeeping, AND have a Game Master who knows what he is doing, look no further than Champions.

[Supreme]

The speed of combat in Champions is probably its greatest problem. These are the things I do to speed things up:

• Make up the speed chart. Do not waste time getting everyone's attention, asking them what their DEX and SPD are (new players will check their sheets every time). Tell them to go.
  
• Don't let players spend a lot of time deciding what to do. Don't rush them either, that makes it worse - and less fun. If I have a new player, I will give them a quick summary of their options. "You can attack, save your phase, or move."
  
• The newer the player, the less complicated their character must be. This seems a little meddlesome in the character creation process, but it really works. You can't have someone new to the game have to decide which of 12 powers is the best to attack with every phase. This is also why, for new players, I always recommend playing a very simplistic brick.
  
• Pre-generate the damage rolls for your villain. There are a bunch of web-sites out there with javascipt applets which will pre-generate all the die rolls you want. Some of them are even geared to give you STUN and BODY rolls. I usually pre-generate a staggeringly huge sheet (8pt Arial Narrow font) with 30+ rolls for 6d6, 7d6, 8d6, 9d6, etc. on up to 20d6.
  
• Don't have a lot of combats with a lot of villains. Large teams of moderately-powered villains might be more effective, but one super-collossal villain plays faster.
  
• Crits & fumbles. This is a house rule of mine. Make your attack roll by ten or more and you do a "crit" which means max damage (it also usually means whatever you're shooting at goes down for the count). Missing your roll by ten or more means that you hit a friend or yourself (people making HTH attacks do damage to themselves by wrenching their limbs/tripping over their own feet).
  
• Play with knockback. More damage means people go unconscious faster.
  
• Don't have so many combats.
  

[Prodical]

Supreme,

 

Well written. Perhaps when yet another Champions rulebook (or Hero VI) is published, the powers that be at Hero Games will print most, if not all of your suggestions.

[Victim]

The problem with Champions is that just because you can accept the bookkeeping and complicated character creation doesn't mean that the other players are willing to make the initial investment to learn the system. It can be a bit difficult to play without a group. I don't really think it's worth to try and convert other people to a different system.

 

Also, I wonder what kind of newbies we're talking about. I think it might be more common for players to be new to a particular system, rather than new to RPGs to begin with. Fireball and similar spells in DnD also require quick counts on piles of d6s - especially with 3e and 2x casting when hasted. Many other games have somewhat involved combat options too.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Prodical

Supreme,

 

Well written. Perhaps when yet another Champions rulebook (or Hero VI) is published, the powers that be at Hero Games will print most, if not all of your suggestions.

Thanks, Prodical.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Victim

The problem with Champions is that just because you can accept the bookkeeping and complicated character creation doesn't mean that the other players are willing to make the initial investment to learn the system. It can be a bit difficult to play without a group. I don't really think it's worth to try and convert other people to a different system.

 

Also, I wonder what kind of newbies we're talking about. I think it might be more common for players to be new to a particular system, rather than new to RPGs to begin with. Fireball and similar spells in DnD also require quick counts on piles of d6s - especially with 3e and 2x casting when hasted. Many other games have somewhat involved combat options too.

In general, I was talking about people new to RPGs as a whole. However, people old to gaming, but new to Champs will still have a problem because they will have a whole new system to learn. Their experience with the previous system(s) can work against them. Especially, when it comes to things like damage. They might have a really hard time understanding when fewer dice means more damage because of other effects (like AP) or not.

[Prodical]

I just got my 5th Edition set today for my LGS (an hour away) and , well. . .wow. I do like it but I am not so sure about this 200 point BASE!. HOlY HANNAH! I mean, JUMPIN' JEHOSAPHAT!

 

I am coming in late through the door here. Please can someone tell me that players will not abuse the hell out of this?

For example, I love the site that has the writeups for existing Marvel and DC Heroes. I personally think that those make great learning tools for new players who know the comics and the character in quesion. To show them that Crusader has a STR 20 and as a result does 4d6 with a simple punch is one thing, but then showing them a Captain America writeup with STR 20 gives them , IMO, perfect recognition.

 

For instance if you suddenly had 50 points dropped into your lap, what other than "common sense" (which can fly out the window with some players, in my experience) would keep them from boosting SPD by +3 and their best attack by +4d6?

 

I don't like to have a great many disadvantages or limitations for characters that I have written up. I can readilly see the benefits or the extra 50 points in that regard.

 

Has anyone had "abuses"?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Prodical

I just got my 5th Edition set today for my LGS (an hour away) and , well. . .wow. I do like it but I am not so sure about this 200 point BASE!. HOlY HANNAH! I mean, JUMPIN' JEHOSAPHAT!

 

I am coming in late through the door here. Please can someone tell me that players will not abuse the hell out of this?

For example, I love the site that has the writeups for existing Marvel and DC Heroes. I personally think that those make great learning tools for new players who know the comics and the character in quesion. To show them that Crusader has a STR 20 and as a result does 4d6 with a simple punch is one thing, but then showing them a Captain America writeup with STR 20 gives them , IMO, perfect recognition.

 

For instance if you suddenly had 50 points dropped into your lap, what other than "common sense" (which can fly out the window with some players, in my experience) would keep them from boosting SPD by +3 and their best attack by +4d6?

 

I don't like to have a great many disadvantages or limitations for characters that I have written up. I can readilly see the benefits or the extra 50 points in that regard.

 

Has anyone had "abuses"?

 

I wouldn't worry about it and play the level you're comfortable with. i did not add a bunch of points just because 5th created a new starting standard, but then again I also have very fast-growth games and an entirely different "goal" in how I like to see XPs play out.

 

Champions/HERO hasn't changed so much that the 4th ed. standards are problematic, in fact they are fine. It seems to me most people wanted more points, though, to spend on skills. If that is something that concerns you, having lots of great super-people with less skills than the average high school student (please, I just mean this as a joke, no responses necessary/invited), and you found that way back when you ran this was a problem, then use the 5th ed. "standard" numbers but require 50 points or whatever go to skills.

[johnflang]

In our house rules, a standard limitation on character creation is 10% of all points all the time must be spent on AK, KS, SC, Lang, PS, or contacts. This is to prevent one dimensional all combat characters.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Prodical

For instance if you suddenly had 50 points dropped into your lap, what other than "common sense" (which can fly out the window with some players, in my experience) would keep them from boosting SPD by +3 and their best attack by +4d6?

FREd posed guidelines on page 15. If you follow most of them you will not be too far out of the loop on power levels. The only problem you will have is if you have been playing NCM superhero games (games where no one has stats above 20) because the "official" stat range in Champions products now extends to 30. If you have always played a game where characters never have more than 20 DEX or 4 SPD, then all those extra points are going to be a pain in the butt to you.

 

I don't like to have a great many disadvantages or limitations for characters that I have written up. I can readilly see the benefits or the extra 50 points in that regard.

The really are no extra points. In 4E you had 100 base and needed to come up with 150 in Disads. In 5E you have 200 base and need to come up with 150 in Disads. In both systems you still need to come up with the same amount of points.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Prodical

I just got my 5th Edition set today for my LGS (an hour away) and , well. . .wow. I do like it but I am not so sure about this 200 point BASE!. HOlY HANNAH! I mean, JUMPIN' JEHOSAPHAT!

 

I am coming in late through the door here. Please can someone tell me that players will not abuse the hell out of this?

For example, I love the site that has the writeups for existing Marvel and DC Heroes. I personally think that those make great learning tools for new players who know the comics and the character in quesion. To show them that Crusader has a STR 20 and as a result does 4d6 with a simple punch is one thing, but then showing them a Captain America writeup with STR 20 gives them , IMO, perfect recognition.

 

For instance if you suddenly had 50 points dropped into your lap, what other than "common sense" (which can fly out the window with some players, in my experience) would keep them from boosting SPD by +3 and their best attack by +4d6?

 

I don't like to have a great many disadvantages or limitations for characters that I have written up. I can readilly see the benefits or the extra 50 points in that regard.

 

Has anyone had "abuses"?

If everyone is at the same level, then there is no real difference. You're just rolling more dice and applying them against larger defenses. What I'd been doing before 5th Ed came out was increasing the point base, but keeping the total point limit the same. This is simply because, as the GM, I don't want to have to keep track of so many disads.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Supreme

The speed of combat in Champions is probably its greatest problem. These are the things I do to speed things up:

• Make up the speed chart. Do not waste time getting everyone's attention, asking them what their DEX and SPD are (new players will check their sheets every time). Tell them to go.
  
• Don't let players spend a lot of time deciding what to do. Don't rush them either, that makes it worse - and less fun. If I have a new player, I will give them a quick summary of their options. "You can attack, save your phase, or move."
  
• The newer the player, the less complicated their character must be. This seems a little meddlesome in the character creation process, but it really works. You can't have someone new to the game have to decide which of 12 powers is the best to attack with every phase. This is also why, for new players, I always recommend playing a very simplistic brick.
  
• Pre-generate the damage rolls for your villain. There are a bunch of web-sites out there with javascipt applets which will pre-generate all the die rolls you want. Some of them are even geared to give you STUN and BODY rolls. I usually pre-generate a staggeringly huge sheet (8pt Arial Narrow font) with 30+ rolls for 6d6, 7d6, 8d6, 9d6, etc. on up to 20d6.
  
• Don't have a lot of combats with a lot of villains. Large teams of moderately-powered villains might be more effective, but one super-collossal villain plays faster.
  
• Crits & fumbles. This is a house rule of mine. Make your attack roll by ten or more and you do a "crit" which means max damage (it also usually means whatever you're shooting at goes down for the count). Missing your roll by ten or more means that you hit a friend or yourself (people making HTH attacks do damage to themselves by wrenching their limbs/tripping over their own feet).
  
• Play with knockback. More damage means people go unconscious faster.
  
• Don't have so many combats.
  

 

I love these suggestions. Being a new GM and returning to champions/hero after an almost 20 year break.. < i think that the last game i played was in 1985-86 > I find these suggestions helpful. At first, I'm just planning on using this as a break from the other games we're in.. basically just a combat game, but hopefully i'll improve/mature as a gm enough to be able to flesh out the game into a proper campaign..

[Prodical]

Page 253

 

Roll 1d6

 

1-2 = 50% of Average Damage

3-4 = Average Damage

5-6 = 150% of Average Damage

 

Now that it is "legitimate" , that is, actually written in the rulebook, I don't feel like I'm cheatin' the character out of anything. My 'ferlosserfy has always been that if the attack strength is 15d6 for the attack or whatever, that is what you should roll.

 

The odds of rolling 12 sixes and 3, fives are perhaps astronomical, or even 12 ones and 3 twos, but hey, there is always that chance.

 

Has anyone taken advantage of this "quick and dirty" option?

Does anyone else feel a twinge of guilt for not rolling as required?

Is it "fair" to the character (I know that they are not alive, however . . .) to "limit" his or her potential by using the 1d6 roll?

[Monolith]

Re: Page 253

 

Originally posted by Prodical

Has anyone taken advantage of this "quick and dirty" option?

Does anyone else feel a twinge of guilt for not rolling as required?

As the GM, I go to every game with all my badguy's damage pre-rolled. Everytime a villain shoots at someone, I only need to roll to hit, and then check off the damage as I go down the list. This saves a lot of time, as the GM needs to roll as much as all the players combined.

[tesuji]

My biggest issue with prerolling is simple... with all the options that affect damage dice like spreading and various maneuvers and pushing and cutting back to save end and so on... less than half of my villain shots would ever be at their "base level." The would not be just wailing away like normal.

 

So i would need a master chart of many different dice pools rolls, possibly one for each character and frankly, i can roll and figure faster than pulling out the right chart and crossing the x and y.

 

Thats just me, however.

 

I can see in games where the villain's attacks and tactics are lending themselves to doing "base normal damage dice" again and again this could be a time saver.

 

of course, i have experienced players who had issues with poregen dice lists, who see them as "preordaining" rather than the "randomness" of actual rolling in front of them.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by tesuji

My biggest issue with prerolling is simple... with all the options that affect damage dice like spreading and various maneuvers and pushing and cutting back to save end and so on... less than half of my villain shots would ever be at their "base level." The would not be just wailing away like normal.

 

So i would need a master chart of many different dice pools rolls, possibly one for each character and frankly, i can roll and figure faster than pulling out the right chart and crossing the x and y.

 

Thats just me, however.

If you were to just run a list of damaged from 8d6 to 14d6, you would see that seven-step range pretty much covers all the damages needed. A spreadsheet pretty easily covers 7 columns, and you can have 40 rows per column.

 

You do not need to roll for each villain, you just mark off the damage from the column. So if Lodestone does 8d6 this phase, you mark off the first one in the 8d6 column. If he does 12d6 next phase, you just just mark off the first one in the 12d6 column.

 

You might not think it takes you long to add 12d6, but even if it takes you 20 seconds, and you are running 6 villains, that is 2 minutes per attack and 10 minutes per turn of combat where the GM does nothing but add damage. This does not include rolling to hit, calculating CVs, or making role-playing speaches. A 2 turn combat has the GM using 20 minutes just to add dice, and another 20 minutes for his 6 players to add up all their dice. That is 40 minutes per 2 turns doing nothing but adding damage. That's why people think HERO System combat takes so long.

 

I can see in games where the villain's attacks and tactics are lending themselves to doing "base normal damage dice" again and again this could be a time saver.

 

of course, i have experienced players who had issues with poregen dice lists, who see them as "preordaining" rather than the "randomness" of actual rolling in front of them.

As the GM, by pre-rolling I cut the adding aspects of combat time in half, so even if the players do not want to do it, it still saves time in the game for me.

[Supreme]

Re: Page 253

 

Originally posted by Prodical

...Has anyone taken advantage of this "quick and dirty" option?

Does anyone else feel a twinge of guilt for not rolling as required?

Is it "fair" to the character (I know that they are not alive, however . . .) to "limit" his or her potential by using the 1d6 roll?

No. As a GM I consider any and all desires that players have about rolling dice to be something of a sacred cow. If they want to roll all their damage dice, fine. If they want to pre-generate them instead, also fine. The only dice-idiosyncracies I have any problem with are the ones that slow down the game. I will not let a player with a 12+D6 attack roll each die individually. I myself indulge in a lot of dice idiosyncracies/superstitions and feel it is only right to respect the same in others.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Re: Page 253

 

Originally posted by Supreme

No. As a GM I consider any and all desires that players have about rolling dice to be something of a sacred cow. If they want to roll all their damage dice, fine. If they want to pre-generate them instead, also fine. The only dice-idiosyncracies I have any problem with are the ones that slow down the game. I will not let a player with a 12+D6 attack roll each die individually. I myself indulge in a lot of dice idiosyncracies/superstitions and feel it is only right to respect the same in others.

 

Dice rolling is one of the things I love about Champs/Hero.

 

Yes... some folks complain about rolling lots of dice and adding them up... but I see just as much delight and anticipation from players when a bad guy gets in a good shot, and I start shaking a handful of dice. "Oooohh... that sounds like a lot of dice!" they say, and laugh. Often I roll the big attacks out in front of them... so they can laugh when it comes up with seven "ones" or groan and cry with I get eight "sixes."

 

I love rolling lots of dice. One of my major gripes with M&M is the simplicity of the die rolling. How boring is a single d20!

 

As someone early said... it's all about multi-tasking. Rolling dice, adding numbers, telling a story, keeping track of initiative, spouting dialogue, eating Twizzlers AND talking about the latest episode of Buffy, without stopping the game, is very important. If you can't do that as a GM... you really need to learn.

[Prodical]

Re: Re: Re: Page 253

 

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Dice rolling is one of the things I love about Champs/Hero.

Often I roll the big attacks out in front of them... so they can laugh when it comes up with seven "ones" or groan and cry with I get eight "sixes."

 

I love rolling lots of dice. One of my major gripes with M&M is the simplicity of the die rolling. How boring is a single d20!

As someone early said... it's all about multi-tasking.

 

You got spunk RDU Neil, and I find it refreshing and infectious.