Chimpira Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Classic Enemies had two versions and Day of the Destroyer had a set of armor used by a poor reporter who was brainwashed into thinking he was Dr. Destroyer. Then there were the earlier editions with simpler design(s) of Dr. Destroyer. And there were plenty of other Dr. Destroyer types who were less powered someone could use if they didn't want the 5th edition worldbeater - Dr. Draconis, Professor Muerte... I'm from the greater OKC area, east side of downtown. Ok. That is what I thought in regard to Dr. Destroyer. Spent some good times in OKC, Tulsa, Broken Arrow and Norman. Lived in Lawton for about 10 years before moving out to Los Angeles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Watts Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron While we'll certainly consider a book of nothing but heroes, I think the more likely location for a lot of this info would be in a "Champions Universe Update," which is a book I've been considering for late '05/early '06. In theory, part of that book would be a chapter on "what's happened in the baseline universe since '02," alng with a bunch of adventure seeds. That's unlikely to fill an entire book, though, so separate chapters, say, on the Sentinels and Justice Squadron (including rosters of villains) would fill it out nicely. Until we can get to that, the '05 schedule does include books like Champions Hidden Lands (which I'm writing now and will include writeups for Sea Hawk, Marus, Archon and probably a couple more high-end heroes), Teen Champions, Champions Worldwide and probably three Ultimate books that will each include at least a few heroes and continue the ongoing efforts to flesh out the Champions Universe. dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpira Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawangaKid Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Well since there are no sales figures for 21st century superhero-only books I think the powers-that-be should maybe take the time to try it themselves. It seems like a great many people have express an interest in such a product. I think most of us have fond memories of Strike Force and the Protectors. Well designed characters are popular and sell books. Poorly designed once get quickly forgotten. Just my opinion' date=' of course. [/quote'] IMHO, I think they're following the trend based on market research done by the WOTC folks, actually. This being to come out with books primarily on setting, rules, equipment an other crunch bits... and the types of opposition that the PCs would encounter, rather than a book filled with characters that are the "Champions" equivalents of Drizzt and Elminster. As I recall Strike Force (and the Protectors), that was a setting book... not only the heroes were in the book: their opponents were alse there, and house rules and gaming tips were included as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humantorch101 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron IMHO As I recall Strike Force (and the Protectors), that was a setting book... not only the heroes were in the book: their opponents were alse there, and house rules and gaming tips were included as well. Thats why I have suggested maybe the best way to go is to do a superhero team like the Justice Squadron like an organisation book such as Demon or Until. Have their full history and background, all memebers from beginning to present day plus supporting characters. Then maps for bases and vehicles. Then go to the teams rogues gallery both as a team and for individual members. Then lastly plenty of plot seeds and adventure hooks. Could be a great series of books in my opinion. Rgds Torch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron *sigh* Let me repeat it: in order to have an Elminster-like influence on the setting, a given NPC good guy would have to be built on a *minimum* of 2000+ *efficient* points. Probably much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron IMHO, I think they're following the trend based on market research done by the WOTC folks, actually. This being to come out with books primarily on setting, rules, equipment an other crunch bits... and the types of opposition that the PCs would encounter, rather than a book filled with characters that are the "Champions" equivalents of Drizzt and Elminster. As I recall Strike Force (and the Protectors), that was a setting book... not only the heroes were in the book: their opponents were alse there, and house rules and gaming tips were included as well. nope, many people remember Eurapean Enemies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Thats why I have suggested maybe the best way to go is to do a superhero team like the Justice Squadron like an organisation book such as Demon or Until. Have their full history and background, all memebers from beginning to present day plus supporting characters. Then maps for bases and vehicles. Then go to the teams rogues gallery both as a team and for individual members. Then lastly plenty of plot seeds and adventure hooks. Could be a great series of books in my opinion. Rgds Torch I respectfully disagree. An org book on heroes I think would be a hard sell, as with the other org books there is some play value for the GM, (They can use UNTIL or VIPER with out moving the spotlight over) a book like you are describing would have one basic purpose for a group to run the team in question, most players want to play there own characters not pre gens. However a CKC style book describing heroes (such as the 4th edition book Allies) I think can be markatable (ESPESIALY IF they include a "How to make them villains" section as they did in 3rd edition) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron *sigh* Let me repeat it: in order to have an Elminster-like influence on the setting, a given NPC good guy would have to be built on a *minimum* of 2000+ *efficient* points. Probably much more. I don't necessarily agree with that. Here's a character example that can probably do fairly well against Dr. Destroyer and other major villains: Quantum 30 STR 20 30 DEX 60 30 CON 40 15 BOD 10 20 INT 10 20 EGO 20 30 PRE 20 20 COM 5 20 PD 14 20 ED 14 7 SPD 30 15 REC 6 100 END 20 75 STN 30 Total: 299 Powers: 81 Quantum Flux Manipulation: Elemental Control 81 a: Quantum Blast: 26d6 EB 1/2 End. 6 87 b: Quantum Shield: 48 pd 48 ed Force Field, hardened, 0 End. 6 81 c: Quantum Flight: 50" Flight, x 125 ncb, 1/2 End. 6 30 Quantum Vision: +20 Telescopic Vision 27 Quantum Shielding: 20 points sight group Flash Def, 20 points Power Def. Linked to Quantum Shield: Total: 676 Skills: 15 +10 Range Levels for Quantum Blast 17 Quantum Shielding: +5 DCV Linked to Quantum Shield 20 +10 Flight 10 +5 Quantum Blast 138 Other Skills, Talents, Perks. Total: 200 Grand Total: 1,175 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron I respectfully disagree. An org book on heroes I think would be a hard sell, as with the other org books there is some play value for the GM, (They can use UNTIL or VIPER with out moving the spotlight over) a book like you are describing would have one basic purpose for a group to run the team in question, most players want to play there own characters not pre gens. However a CKC style book describing heroes (such as the 4th edition book Allies) I think can be markatable (ESPESIALY IF they include a "How to make them villains" section as they did in 3rd edition) I think a book like the old Marvel Superheroes Avengers Assemble, which details the history, characters, and villains of a particular organization, would be a good sell. Gamers are looking for something fun to read just as much as they are looking for game material. That's why M&M products are so popular with their fans. I would purchase an organization book detailing the Sentinels in that manner in a heart beat, for the same reason I purchased Strike Force even though I didn't play in that world: for the fun of reading it. At least with a Sentinels book you're adding something to the Champions Universe. Just my opinion, nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron I don't necessarily agree with that. Here's a character example that can probably do fairly well against Dr. Destroyer and other major villains: Quantum 30 STR 20 30 DEX 60 30 CON 40 15 BOD 10 20 INT 10 20 EGO 20 30 PRE 20 20 COM 5 20 PD 14 20 ED 14 7 SPD 30 15 REC 6 100 END 20 75 STN 30 Total: 299 Powers: 81 Quantum Flux Manipulation: Elemental Control 81 a: Quantum Blast: 26d6 EB 1/2 End. 6 87 b: Quantum Shield: 48 pd 48 ed Force Field, hardened, 0 End. 6 81 c: Quantum Flight: 50" Flight, x 125 ncb, 1/2 End. 6 30 Quantum Vision: +20 Telescopic Vision 27 Quantum Shielding: 20 points sight group Flash Def, 20 points Power Def. Linked to Quantum Shield: Total: 676 Skills: 15 +10 Range Levels for Quantum Blast 17 Quantum Shielding: +5 DCV Linked to Quantum Shield 20 +10 Flight 10 +5 Quantum Blast 138 Other Skills, Talents, Perks. Total: 200 Grand Total: 1,175 Well, yeah, he could do semidecent. He also has no flexibility whatsoever. More importantly, the difference between his level of capability and a beginning level super still doesn't even come close to the difference between a 1st level D&D character, and Elminster. Hell, it probably doesn't come close to the difference between a 10th level character, and Elminster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron I think a book like the old Marvel Superheroes Avengers Assemble' date=' which details the history, characters, and villains of a particular organization, would be a good sell. Gamers are looking for something fun to read just as much as they are looking for game material. That's why M&M products are so popular with their fans. I would purchase an organization book detailing the Sentinels in that manner in a heart beat, for the same reason I purchased Strike Force even though I didn't play in that world: for the fun of reading it. At least with a Sentinels book you're adding something to the Champions Universe. Just my opinion, nothing more.[/quote'] An idea I had a while back, that could be adapted here: There are some organizations and teams out there that couldn't really support a book of their own. So, why not double up?? You could have one book divided in half, with sections covering, say, Eurostar and the Crowns of Krim. Or ARGENT and the IHA. Or, in this case, the Sentinels and the Justice Squadron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron An idea I had a while back, that could be adapted here: There are some organizations and teams out there that couldn't really support a book of their own. So, why not double up?? You could have one book divided in half, with sections covering, say, Eurostar and the Crowns of Krim. Or ARGENT and the IHA. Or, in this case, the Sentinels and the Justice Squadron. Or, if you want to make sure it's generally useful... the other half could be their rogues galleries. With suggestions on how to modify them to bedevil other (PC) heroes if need be. "Knights and Nemesi" perhaps? "Equals, Allies and Evil Twins" ? "Reinforcements, Rogues and (blank)" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Oh, there definitely are situations where overshadowing can be a problem. However, the idea that this is a conceptual result of having high level NPCs, rather than an implementation problem by the GM ( or an attitude problem by the players ), is bunk. And don't worry, ChuckB; I consider that idea bunk regardless of who proposes it. Newbie GM's most likely to overshadow PC's with NPC's. Newbie GM's most likely to use universe as is. (therefore) The universe, as is, should not help with the overshadowing. If you're experienced enough to complain about it, you're not the person they're targeting the lack at. Still bunk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Well, yeah, he could do semidecent. He also has no flexibility whatsoever. More importantly, the difference between his level of capability and a beginning level super still doesn't even come close to the difference between a 1st level D&D character, and Elminster. Hell, it probably doesn't come close to the difference between a 10th level character, and Elminster. I think part of the problem of character design, especially with many of the CKC characters, is that people try to make their characters too flexible. They give the character each and every possible thing they can think of instead of having ease of design. Give Quantum a Power Skill on the elemental and you now have a character who can do 50+ point power tricks. That's all the flexibility you need, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron *sigh* Let me repeat it: in order to have an Elminster-like influence on the setting, a given NPC good guy would have to be built on a *minimum* of 2000+ *efficient* points. Probably much more. And a 5000+ year lifespan, and scads of allies only slightly-less powerful than he himself is, and be involved with every darn conspiracy or secret organization in the world... Oh, and a writer who wants to make 'his' character uber-god wouldn't hurt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Or, if you want to make sure it's generally useful... the other half could be their rogues galleries. With suggestions on how to modify them to bedevil other (PC) heroes if need be. "Knights and Nemesi" perhaps? "Equals, Allies and Evil Twins" ? "Reinforcements, Rogues and (blank)" ? Actually, I was figuring that would be included in their section. I just don't think it'd be enough to fill an entire book for one team or lesser organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Newbie GM's most likely to overshadow PC's with NPC's. Newbie GM's most likely to use universe as is. (therefore) The universe, as is, should not help with the overshadowing. If you're experienced enough to complain about it, you're not the person they're targeting the lack at. Still bunk? Yes. Same logic would require excluding all the villains over about 500 points, as well as basically all the organizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron And a 5000+ year lifespan, and scads of allies only slightly-less powerful than he himself is, and be involved with every darn conspiracy or secret organization in the world... Oh, and a writer who wants to make 'his' character uber-god wouldn't hurt... Yep. In Champs terms, those are a hell of alot of points spent on perks. I mean, how much is "I slept with a goddess" worth?? Don't forget the other little thing often forgotten about Elminster: full Spellfire capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron An idea I had a while back, that could be adapted here: There are some organizations and teams out there that couldn't really support a book of their own. So, why not double up?? You could have one book divided in half, with sections covering, say, Eurostar and the Crowns of Krim. Or ARGENT and the IHA. Or, in this case, the Sentinels and the Justice Squadron. In the old days, they used to do supplements like this. PRIMUS AND DEMON, for example, presented the early versions of both groups - one good guys, one bad guys - in one book. There was also THE CIRCLE AND METE (a group of magic-based good guys and a group dedicated to studying/working with extraterrestials) and THE BLOOD AND DR. McQUARK (one an extended family/subrace of super-beings, the other a business providing foci and other technical services to supers). The overall idea isn't a bad one, though it helps if the mix of groups is thematically consistent, and success of course depends on how well the write-up is executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Yep. In Champs terms, those are a hell of alot of points spent on perks. I mean, how much is "I slept with a goddess" worth?? Don't forget the other little thing often forgotten about Elminster: full Spellfire capability. Spellfire capability? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Yes. Same logic would require excluding all the villains over about 500 points' date=' as well as basically all the organizations.[/quote'] It's a lot easier to tell when you're flattening the PC's than to tell when you're overshadowing them. The first, they all go to -400 STUN and you get the hint. The second, you (not YOU you, 'you') might not realise until no one shows up for a game session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Actually' date=' I was figuring that would be included in their section. I just don't think it'd be enough to fill an entire book for one team or lesser organization.[/quote'] Depends. Imagine a team with any three iconic multi-book heroes on it... Now add some more. Keep going until you realise it'd be larger than the encyclopedia britannica. Hey, that's a five man team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Spellfire capability? Basically, the power to absorb and redirect raw magical energy. Completely separate ability from spellcasting, if used properly, it lets you ignore any incoming magic and use the power to cast spells without expending them. Considering how much of the list of "People who could at least theoretically hurt Elminster" are mainly magic users. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Re: Iconic Characters: the Justice Squadron Depends. Imagine a team with any three iconic multi-book heroes on it... Now add some more. Keep going until you realise it'd be larger than the encyclopedia britannica. Hey, that's a five man team. True. OTOH, the impression I got is that most of the members of the Sentinels and Justice Squadron aren't quite *that* iconic. I still think you could do both main US superteams in one book of less than CKC size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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